Israel is the Church

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

farouk

Well-Known Member
Jan 21, 2009
30,790
19,230
113
North America
That is the false teaching of Supersessionism.
Give us the exact Bible scripture that states this--> "the modern nation of Israel and the bloodline have been cut from the Root"
It seems from Scripture there clearly is a future for Israel.
 

ScottA

Well-Known Member
Feb 24, 2011
11,695
5,575
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
The time of the gentiles is over when the church is raptured and then the tribulation, when God turns His full attention to save Israel.
No, sorry, that is a popular belief and translation of scripture, but incorrect.

The timing of the so called "rapture", as Paul explained, is "each in his own order", not as a mass event.

So too is the tribulation, except the time of great tribulation which came upon Christ, rather than men. That is when He saved Israel, who became "the dead in Christ." They are with Him in His acts of the church, in tears.
 
Last edited:

ScottA

Well-Known Member
Feb 24, 2011
11,695
5,575
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
That is the false teaching of Supersessionism.
Give us the exact Bible scripture that states this--> "the modern nation of Israel and the bloodline have been cut from the Root"
Matthew 3:10
"And even now the ax is laid to the root of the trees. Therefore every tree which does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire."
 
  • Like
Reactions: Waiting on him

Enoch111

Well-Known Member
May 27, 2018
17,688
15,996
113
Alberta
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
The timing of the so called "rapture", as Paul explained. is "each in his own order", not as a mass event.
How can you say that the Rapture is not a mass event when the Bible says the EXACT OPPOSITE? Do you see how spiritualizing leads you to serious error? "Each in his own order" applies to the sequential phases of the first resurrection, similar to a Hebrew harvest:

1. Christ -- the first fruits

2. The Resurrection/Rapture -- the main harvest (mass event)

3. The resurrection of Tribulation saints -- the gleanings
 

ScottA

Well-Known Member
Feb 24, 2011
11,695
5,575
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
How can you say that the Rapture is not a mass event when the Bible says the EXACT OPPOSITE? Do you see how spiritualizing leads you to serious error? "Each in his own order" applies to the sequential phases of the first resurrection, similar to a Hebrew harvest:

1. Christ -- the first fruits

2. The Resurrection/Rapture -- the main harvest (mass event)

3. The resurrection of Tribulation saints -- the gleanings
No...but it is obvious that you have a prejudice against the Spirit.

On the contrary, the bible does not say the opposite.
 
D

Dave L

Guest
That is the false teaching of Supersessionism.
Give us the exact Bible scripture that states this--> "the modern nation of Israel and the bloodline have been cut from the Root"
When Christ abolished circumcision, nothing remained to make one a physical Jew or physical member of Israel. The last generation died off in around AD 70. Mainly in the destruction of Jerusalem.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Waiting on him

Mjh29

Well-Known Member
May 28, 2017
1,466
1,433
113
USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
When Christ abolished circumcision, nothing remained to make one a physical Jew or physical member of Israel. The last generation died off in around AD 70. Mainly in the destruction of Jerusalem.

I would assume this is what is meant when the Scriptures say that "Not all that are of Israel are Israel."
 
  • Like
Reactions: Dave L

tzcho2

Well-Known Member
Feb 15, 2019
1,646
846
113
Boston
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
When Christ abolished circumcision, nothing remained to make one a physical Jew or physical member of Israel. The last generation died off in around AD 70. Mainly in the destruction of Jerusalem.
Wow, you can't even make this stuff up! oh lol! ...you just did.
 

Taken

Well-Known Member
Staff member
Encounter Team
Feb 6, 2018
24,509
12,925
113
United States
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
If so, to whom are the broken off believers grafted into upon believing in Christ? Themselves?

No clue what you mean by a "BROKEN OFF BELIEVER".

People do not Begin their NATURAL LIFE, IN BELIEF.

People BY their OWN Power, can believe, stop believing, say they believe, stop believing, continually.

That happened to MANY OT men.

OT men that Believed and REMAINED in belief, became "saints".

OT men that AGREED "by their word TO GOD to BELIEVE" and then Stopped BELIEVING, are the BROKE OFF BRANCH ~ and their
Descendants (for the most part) followed suit of their parents, being a BROKEN OFF BRANCH.
The REMAING BRANCH BECAME the ELECT ~ ISRAEL ~ Gods CHOSEN ~ Gods People.

Gentiles (for the most part) WERE NOT INCLUDED with the portion of the ORGINAL BRANCH.

It was AFTER Christ's ARRIVAL, and Christ SENDING the Gentiles a Prophet to teach them ABOUT Christ, ABOUT God;
THAT
Gentiles Began being "GRAFTED" into Gods BRANCH of People.

A Gentiles "GRAFTING" is solely BY and THROUGH Christ, and those Grafted IN, are Christ's people, identified as members of Christ's Church.

Christ's People Become a Branch Grafted INTO Gods People. Christ's People REMAIN "IN" Christ, by the Power of the Holy Spirit, not a mans own power.

John 17
[9] I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
 

VictoryinJesus

Well-Known Member
Jan 26, 2017
9,581
7,857
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
No, not Christ divide, but rather the two "in Christ" as One. The two are biblical Israel and the gentiles, but spiritually they are the dead and the living in new life in Christ - this is salvation, to those who were lost (dead).

Trying to collect where the questions are instead of rambling. Not by any means saying you are wrong or arguing a point but presenting questions.

1) reference to Hebrews 12:23
[23] To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

2) you say the OT saints are the dead in Christ while we are Spirit (the alive in Christ). Yet the promise was the Spirit...the supernatural birth...a seed that continues which is Christ.
Colossians 3:2-3 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. [3] For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.

Matthew 3:9-12
[9] And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham. [10] And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. [11] I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: [12] Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham. God did and was always going to which is the very reason the stones would have cried out if He had held His peace.

The promise of children made to Abraham not through or by flesh but by the supernatural: GOD. John 14:26-27
[26] But the Comforter, which is the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. [27] Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.

...stones raised up as Children of the promise unto Abraham.

Luke 5:34
[34] And he said unto them, Can ye make the children of the bridechamber fast, while the bridegroom is with them?

The New lump: 1 Corinthians 5:5-7
To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. [6] Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump? [7] Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:

Spirit Romans 11:16
[16] For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy : and if the root be holy, so are the branches.

^ until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in...in to what? Don’t understand how is a new lump + Gentiles or a new lump plus Israel when the word said they became One the separation torn.
 
D

Dave L

Guest
No clue what you mean by a "BROKEN OFF BELIEVER".

People do not Begin their NATURAL LIFE, IN BELIEF.

People BY their OWN Power, can believe, stop believing, say they believe, stop believing, continually.

That happened to MANY OT men.

OT men that Believed and REMAINED in belief, became "saints".

OT men that AGREED "by their word TO GOD to BELIEVE" and then Stopped BELIEVING, are the BROKE OFF BRANCH ~ and their
Descendants (for the most part) followed suit of their parents, being a BROKEN OFF BRANCH.
The REMAING BRANCH BECAME the ELECT ~ ISRAEL ~ Gods CHOSEN ~ Gods People.

Gentiles (for the most part) WERE NOT INCLUDED with the portion of the ORGINAL BRANCH.

It was AFTER Christ's ARRIVAL, and Christ SENDING the Gentiles a Prophet to teach them ABOUT Christ, ABOUT God;
THAT
Gentiles Began being "GRAFTED" into Gods BRANCH of People.

A Gentiles "GRAFTING" is solely BY and THROUGH Christ, and those Grafted IN, are Christ's people, identified as members of Christ's Church.

Christ's People Become a Branch Grafted INTO Gods People. Christ's People REMAIN "IN" Christ, by the Power of the Holy Spirit, not a mans own power.

John 17
[9] I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
How can the broken off be Israel if God grafts them into Israel if they believe?
 
  • Like
Reactions: VictoryinJesus

CoreIssue

Well-Known Member
Oct 15, 2018
10,032
2,023
113
USA
christiantalkzone.net
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
How can the broken off be Israel if God grafts them into Israel if they believe?

You did not understand grafting.

If a branch of a tree is broken off or removed from one place tree it could be grafted back in another. Never cease to be a native branch of the tree. It was just relocated.


Or if a branch is removed from a sickly part of the tree and moved to a healthy part of the tree.

Or if a unhealthy branch is removed and made healthy it can be put back.

The branch of a Olive tree does not cease to all of when removed.

The branch of the wild olive grafted into domesticated does not become domesticated. It shares in the sap of the domesticated tree and still bears wild olive tree fruit.

Maybe it takes a farmer to truly understand this.
 
D

Dave L

Guest
You did not understand grafting.

If a branch of a tree is broken off or removed from one place tree it could be grafted back in another. Never cease to be a native branch of the tree. It was just relocated.


Or if a branch is removed from a sickly part of the tree and moved to a healthy part of the tree.

Or if a unhealthy branch is removed and made healthy it can be put back.

The branch of a Olive tree does not cease to all of when removed.

The branch of the wild olive grafted into domesticated does not become domesticated. It shares in the sap of the domesticated tree and still bears wild olive tree fruit.

Maybe it takes a farmer to truly understand this.
If Jesus is Israel, how can the broken off who think he is in hell right now be Israel?
 
D

Dave L

Guest
Jesus is not Israel.
“Listen to me, you coastlands! Pay attention, you people who live far away! The LORD summoned me from birth; he commissioned me when my mother brought me into the world. He made my mouth like a sharp sword, he hid me in the hollow of his hand; he made me like a sharpened arrow, he hid me in his quiver. He said to me, “You are my servant, Israel, through whom I will reveal my splendor.”” (Isaiah 49:1–3) (NET)

When Israel was a child, then I loved him, And called my son out of Egypt.” (Hosea 11:1)

Then he [Joseph] got up, took the child and his mother during the night, and went to Egypt. He stayed there until Herod died. In this way what was spoken by the Lord through the prophet was fulfilled: “I called my Son out of Egypt.”” (Matthew 2:14–15)

When Jesus says that he is the true vine in John 15, he is making an explicit connection to Israel being called a failed vine in Isaiah 5.
 

CoreIssue

Well-Known Member
Oct 15, 2018
10,032
2,023
113
USA
christiantalkzone.net
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
“Listen to me, you coastlands! Pay attention, you people who live far away! The LORD summoned me from birth; he commissioned me when my mother brought me into the world. He made my mouth like a sharp sword, he hid me in the hollow of his hand; he made me like a sharpened arrow, he hid me in his quiver. He said to me, “You are my servant, Israel, through whom I will reveal my splendor.”” (Isaiah 49:1–3) (NET)

When Israel was a child, then I loved him, And called my son out of Egypt.” (Hosea 11:1)

Then he [Joseph] got up, took the child and his mother during the night, and went to Egypt. He stayed there until Herod died. In this way what was spoken by the Lord through the prophet was fulfilled: “I called my Son out of Egypt.”” (Matthew 2:14–15)

When Jesus says that he is the true vine in John 15, he is making an explicit connection to Israel being called a failed vine in Isaiah 5.

Israel and Jesus are two distinctly different people.

Jesus did not exist until the incarnation.

You keep trying to eliminate Israel from existence or replace it.