Convince me of Annihilationism

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Harvest 1874

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Remember, he follows the false prophet Russell.

Remember CoreIssue follows the false prophet... well he has so many of them its hard to remember all their names, just check out some of the numerous videos he's posted on this site for a list of them. All men with itching ears dedicated to telling him just what he wants to hear.
 
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brakelite

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well, so you say, yes. But wouldn't that still make more than one immortal, bl?
One can hardly be described as 'immortal' I think so long as his life is still dependant upon another. Thus while the enduring (eternal IOW) nature of it is guaranteed as a gift, it is by its very nature conditional or subservient to the power that provides for its longevity.
 
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brakelite

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This is where the definition of eternal life is so important. Jesus told us what eternal life is, it's not existing forever, that's not the definition. It's knowing God, and knowing Jesus.

Relationship with God is life, and we live in Him, so we have eternal life. As long as He lives, we live in Him.

Those who do not know God, and know Jesus, do not have eternal life, yet though they exist.

Having eternal life and not having eternal life are not functions of whether the person exists. They can exist without having eternal life, not knowing God.

The question of whether a person continues forever in torment or not must be answered separately.

Much love!
Mark
So one who is permanently dead, (a death for which there is no provision made for a resurrection) because they do not know the Father and the Son, is still alive seeing they 'still exist'? If therefore they are still alive, presumably forever suffering, (seeing suffering at all surely indicates some form of cognitive reality=life) do they not live eternally , thus having 'eternal life'?
Now I am fully aware of what John 17:3 says, but can we divorce the relationship with God that for us is the criteria for being a part of God who begets, creates and sustains life, from the conscious reality of experiencing it? Thus is it not incumbent upon you to prove that the sinners are equal recipients of that life which enables them to experience the eternal suffering and torment so many claim is their 'just reward'?
 
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brakelite

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This is where the definition of eternal life is so important. Jesus told us what eternal life is, it's not existing forever, that's not the definition. It's knowing God, and knowing Jesus.
Yes, knowing God is the essence of having eternal life, for without them it simply cannot be. But are you saying eternal life is not existing forever? Are you suggesting there is an end to the existence of the redeemed, while the sinner does exist forever in torment?
 
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brakelite

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Eternal torment is often described as being outside of the presence of God. Separated from Him forever. Yet we know that it is God who sustains life in its myriad of forms...(Col 1:17)...who keeps everything intact. How then can anything, regardless of its state of consciousness, remain intact or in existence at all separated from its only source of sustaining power? The continuing existence of people in eternal torment, at least to my mind, can only be explained by the assumption that God to some extent or measure, deliberately empowers their existence, presumably for the express purpose of experiencing pain. Now sorry, if this offends anyone, but that isn't the God of the Bible.
 

CoreIssue

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Remember CoreIssue follows the false prophet... well he has so many of them its hard to remember all their names, just check out some of the numerous videos he's posted on this site for a list of them. All men with itching ears dedicated to telling him just what he wants to hear.
Name the false prophet.

If you don't like what the video say, refute them with the Bible.
 

Harvest 1874

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How do you explain Matthew 5:29-30 ? Or Mark 9:48 ?

Nobody is adding to the words of God there.

We shall attempt to explain these verses howbeit you will have to accept that this comes from a false prophet according to CoreIssue, and he should know being he’s an authority on false prophets, or so he imagines, nevertheless a truth spoken is still a truth even if it be spoken by the Adversary himself.

If your right eye causes you to stumble, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell (Gehenna). And if your right hand causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell (Gehenna).” Matt 5:29-30

These are the same words our Lord used in Matt 18:8, 9

Did our Lord advocate self-mutilation? Obviously not he healed men, he restored their hands and feet and eyes. We must therefore conclude that symbolic terms are being used here.

The scripture simply and powerfully teaches that it is better for a Christian to cut off and eliminate from his life things as dear to him as a hand, foot, or an eye if such things would prevent him from making his calling and election sure. Such eradication would be better than to fail of his calling and lose his eternal existence in the second death (hell fire, the lake of fire).

Rev 20:14; 21:8 gives the proper explanation as to what the lake of fire actually is,This is the second death”, from which there is no resurrection. The lake of fire is the symbolic expression denoting destruction, permanent destruction, annihilation, or extinction of being.

The wordGehenna” rendered “Hell” in the following passages (Matt. 5:22, 29, 30; 10:28; 18:9; 23:15, 33; Mark 9:43-47; Luke 12:5; Jas. 3:6) is the Grecian mode of spelling the Hebrew words, which are, translated "Valley of Hinnom." This valley lay just outside the city of Jerusalem, and served the purpose of sewer and garbage burner to that city. The offal, garbage, etc., were emptied there, and fires were kept continually burning to consume utterly all things deposited therein, brimstone being added to assist combustion and insure complete destruction. But no living thing was ever permitted to be cast into Gehenna.

Corpses were thrown in Gehenna, not live bodies. Therefore, the idea of eternal torment (conscious suffering) IS NOT taught by the Valley of Hinnom. The remains were destroyed.

When we consider that in the people of Israel God was giving us object lessons illustrating his dealings and plans, present and future, we should expect that this Valley of Hinnom, or Gehenna, would also play its part in illustrating things future.

While Gehenna served a useful purpose to the city of Jerusalem as a place for garbage burning, it, like the city itself, was typical, and illustrated the future dealings of God in refusing and committing to destruction all the impure elements, thus preventing them from defiling the holy city, the New Jerusalem, after the trial of the Millennial age of judgment shall have fully proved mankind and separated with unerring accuracy the "sheep" from the "goats."

So, then, Gehenna was a type or illustration of the Second Death--final and complete destruction, from which there can be no recovery; for after that, "there remains no more sacrifice for sins," but only "fiery indignation which shall devour the adversaries." (Heb. 10:26)

Our next text:

And if your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell (Gehenna), where the worms that eat them do not die, and the fire is not quenched.’” (Mark 9:47-48)

Once again the proper rendering is Gehenna not “Hell” in this text. Likewise the same lesson is being taught.

If our hand, foot, or eye causes us to sin, we are to get rid of it, figuratively speaking. If one of these is cut off, there is a lack, but if two (both) are cut off, the implication is Second Death. Why? Because the person has not attempted to curb the problem, an ingrained character fault or defect must be uprooted.

Verse 48 is based on Isa 66:24 (the last verse of the Book of Isaiah), which refers to the destruction of Gog and Magog at the end of the Gospel Age. A cemetery in Israel will be called Hamon-gog.

In regard to the worm not dying and the fire never being extinguished—this is to be an everlasting perpetual lesson. As the people go by, they will see the cemetery, and most likely some kind of audiovisual record will tell why and how God destroyed Gog and Magog. While a worm literally dies and a fire can be extinguished, the lesson itself will continue. Hence the worm and fire are figurative.

Who would ever think that a worm could be immortal?

When dead bodies were thrown in the Valley of Hinnom, most were destroyed with fire, but if a body landed on a ledge, worms destroyed the body. Thus the Valley of Hinnom is a good picture of Second Death.

Here in Mark the worm and the fire are associated with Gehenna, the Valley of Hinnom, i.e., Second Death, which will never be destroyed. Adamic death will be destroyed but not Second Death. God will always have the prerogative, if He so desires, to expunge a life.
 
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CoreIssue

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And yet the Bible says mom's never die. But they die if the body the feeding on ceases to exist.

Therefore your definition of the second death is wrong.

Separation from God does not mean ceasing to exist.
 

CoreIssue

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Eternal torment is often described as being outside of the presence of God. Separated from Him forever. Yet we know that it is God who sustains life in its myriad of forms...(Col 1:17)...who keeps everything intact. How then can anything, regardless of its state of consciousness, remain intact or in existence at all separated from its only source of sustaining power? The continuing existence of people in eternal torment, at least to my mind, can only be explained by the assumption that God to some extent or measure, deliberately empowers their existence, presumably for the express purpose of experiencing pain. Now sorry, if this offends anyone, but that isn't the God of the Bible.
So says Ellen G White.
 

Helen

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The continuing existence of people in eternal torment, at least to my mind, can only be explained by the assumption that God to some extent or measure, deliberately empowers their existence, presumably for the express purpose of experiencing pain. Now sorry, if this offends anyone, but that isn't the God of the Bible.

YES, YES, YES...It is not within His Nature.
He is the God of redemption.
Punishment (many or few stripes ) yes...but “forever pain”, it blows my mind that people can read the bible and make that 'Gods intent'!.

As for the people who say- “God didn’t send them, they sent them self “....phttt :rolleyes:

God is God, we are dust....man was a fool from the beginning....
 
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Phoneman777

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(speaking as a man) I'm feeling cognitively dissonant.
You, sir, are a giant among men and have my utmost respect. Choosing to work through CD rather than just retreating to the safety of the old to escape the threat of the new? Rare.
I want to believe in Annihilationism
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annihilationism. I want to believe scriptures such as Psalms 37:10 Psalms 37:20 Psalms 37:36 refer to the eternal state of sinful man rather than speaking only about life here on earth.
Go right ahead.
In Genesis 4:13 Cain cries out that his punishment is more than he can bear. The Lord alleviates his punishment by warding off those who would seek his life.
Doesn't mean natural causes didn't get him. Not at all. "It is appointed unto man once to die..."

Revelation 22:15 occurs after creation of the New Heavens and Earth, and it states "but outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie." Why mention those outside the Kingdom in such a way as though they were still practicing these sinful habits after Death and Hell have been cast into the Lake of Fire?
Because the point at which the saints are inside the city and the wicked outside the city is at the resurrection of the damned just before the New Heavens and New Earth.

Bible says:

  • Jesus comes in the clouds to collect the "dead in Christ" and "we that are alive and remain" aka "rapture" while simultaneously the wicked drop dead all over the Earth as it and the atmosphere catches on fire.
  • 1,000 years go by with Satan and his demons down here with nothing to do but contemplate their post-millennial fate, while the saints are home in heaven judging demons, sinners, and vindicating God's judgments with "just and true are thy ways, O king of saints".
  • After 1,000 years, New Jerusalem is transported to Earth and settles in the "great plain" formed by the split mountain, and as it comes to rest there, the wicked are called forth form their sleep to stand in judgment.
  • Satan deceives the multitudes of sinners outside the city into joining him in one final stand (Armageddon) against those inside the city, and they make ready to battle, but the battle is already over before it's begun. (Revelation 22:15)
  • White throne judgment commences, where conviction fills the hearts of all sinnners
  • Everyone of them including Satan drops down and confesses Jesus was right
  • They take to their feet in one last desperate attempt to save themselves from the destruction they know is coming, but Fire begins falling, turning the entire planet into a seething Lake of Fire which consumes them.
  • Only then is the New Heaven and New Earth created.
Sure, I've not listed any Scripture but am willing to if you have a question.
 
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Davy

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Revelation 20:7

I think I'll stick to the chronology of scripture. Hope you dont mind.

But you're not sticking to the chronology of scripture. Doing that involves understanding the order of events, not just thinking everything always flows in sequence.

The reason why the Rev.22:14-15 Scripture belongs to the timing of Christ's millennial reign of Rev.20 is because the wicked are shown still there outside the beloved city.

Rev 22:14-15
14 Blessed are they that do His commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

KJV

You have to continue the subject about the gates of that city into that 15th verse about the wicked right outside it.

Rev.20 reveals that after the "thousand years", God's Great White Throne judgement begins and the wicked are cast into the "lake of fire". And even hell is cast into the lake of fire then. But these outside the holy city aren't dealt with just yet. And Ezekiel 47 shows God's River manifesting on earth again with its waters flowing out of the millennial sanctuary, with the tree of life. It's an important link to that timing of Christ's future reign, and prevents man's doctrines of preaching about sand castles up in the sky during Christ's future thousand years reign with His elect.
 

friend of

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Rev.20 reveals that after the "thousand years", God's Great White Throne judgement begins and the wicked are cast into the "lake of fire". And even hell is cast into the lake of fire then. But these outside the holy city aren't dealt with just yet. And Ezekiel 47 shows God's River manifesting on earth again with its waters flowing out of the millennial sanctuary, with the tree of life. It's an important link to that timing of Christ's future reign, and prevents man's doctrines of preaching about sand castles up in the sky during Christ's future thousand years reign with His elect.

This is exactly the reason you're wrong. Rev 22 takes place after death and hell are cast into the Lake of Fire. You're telling me that the devil will still be active after the creation of new heavens new earth (aka NOT the Millenial Kingdom). It makes no sense that God would permit the devil to mess around with God's new Eden.

The reason what your attempting to convey makes no sense is because Gog and Magog occurs in Revelation 20:7-10

The Great White Throne Judgement clearly occurs in Revelation 20:11-15 before all things are made new.

If you're going to suggest that I'm holding to man-interpreted doctrine, you are going to have to accuse me of reading Revelation chronologically. Revelation 20 does not support what you're saying. Revelation 21-22 are NOT talking about the Millenial Kingdom.
 
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friend of

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You, sir, are a giant among men and have my utmost respect. Choosing to work through CD rather than just retreating to the safety of the old to escape the threat of the new? Rare.

o_O who me?

  • Jesus comes in the clouds to collect the "dead in Christ" and "we that are alive and remain" aka "rapture" while simultaneously the wicked drop dead all over the Earth as it and the atmosphere catches on fire.
  • 1,000 years go by with Satan and his demons down here with nothing to do but contemplate their post-millennial fate, while the saints are home in heaven judging demons, sinners, and vindicating God's judgments with "just and true are thy ways, O king of saints".
  • After 1,000 years, New Jerusalem is transported to Earth and settles in the "great plain" formed by the split mountain, and as it comes to rest there, the wicked are called forth form their sleep to stand in judgment.
  • Satan deceives the multitudes of sinners outside the city into joining him in one final stand (Armageddon) against those inside the city, and they make ready to battle, but the battle is already over before it's begun. (Revelation 22:15)
  • White throne judgment commences, where conviction fills the hearts of all sinnners
  • Everyone of them including Satan drops down and confesses Jesus was right
  • They take to their feet in one last desperate attempt to save themselves from the destruction they know is coming, but Fire begins falling, turning the entire planet into a seething Lake of Fire which consumes them.
  • Only then is the New Heaven and New Earth created.

Interesting. Haven't read it exactly like that before. A few things ive noticed though, in your first point you say that the atmosphere catches fire, wouldn't that make the whole planet uninhabitable and turn it into a lake of fire already? On your second point, scriptures do say that only satan is locked in "the Abyss" but you wrote that he'll be "here" and that the demons will be with him. I've understood that he will be completely isolated unable to influence any living thing at all. When it comes to Revelation 22:15, I'm not sure the judgement of those people hasn't already taken place, the verse is just referencing all those who are not in the new kingdom.

I find it interesting that your concept of the 1000 year reign is quite different from Davy's, since you believe the 1000 year reign will take place in the heavens and he does not, as shown by this post of his-

It's an important link to that timing of Christ's future reign, and prevents man's doctrines of preaching about sand castles up in the sky during Christ's

I personally don't know where the 1000 year reign will take place (heavens or earth) but I think you make a good point that it could be in heaven since New Jerusalem comes down later on.
 

friend of

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We shall attempt to explain these verses howbeit you will have to accept that this comes from a false prophet according to CoreIssue, and he should know being he’s an authority on false prophets, or so he imagines, nevertheless a truth spoken is still a truth even if it be spoken by the Adversary himself.

I don't consider myself a ranking authority on who is or is not a false prophet and I'm not going to tell you or anyone else here who they follow.

Thanks for your response.
 

Helen

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God is indeed a God of justice; and the Bible proclaims that He has wrath against sin.

...which was poured out upon the shoulders of Jesus.

"God saw the travail of His soul, and was satisfied. "
 
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bbyrd009

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Well, I probably would have been better off probably looking up before I got even close to the cliff. But now I'm there, yes, looking up becomes even more urgent, "for without Me ye can do nothing".
Ha, yes, also a good reflection


you might consider the analogy of walking through a door covered in blood and crossing a sea of reeds into a wilderness to wander akin to falling off a cliff, same with leaving the world. So iow looking up in that sense would still be implied

hmm also wandering too close to a literal reading of some um Central Commands, see, by Christ, might cause a "spiritual" response from us when we want to
 
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