GIFTS OF THE SPIRIT

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101G

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marksman said: ↑
"Christians do not heal anyone. We are only a vehicle through which the Holy Spirit works".

Wafer said: "Please cite chapter and verse so we know you are not making this up yourself".

Acts 3:1 "Now Peter and John went up together into the temple at the hour of prayer, [being] the ninth [hour].
Acts 3:2 "And a certain man lame from his mother's womb was carried, whom they laid daily at the gate of the temple which is called Beautiful, to ask alms of them that entered into the temple;
Acts 3:3 "Who seeing Peter and John about to go into the temple asked an alms.
Acts 3:4 "And Peter, fastening his eyes upon him with John, said, Look on us.
Acts 3:5 "And he gave heed unto them, expecting to receive something of them.
Acts 3:6 "Then Peter said, Silver and gold have I none; but such as I have give I thee: In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth rise up and walk.
Acts 3:7 "And he took him by the right hand, and lifted [him] up: and immediately his feet and ancle bones received strength.
Acts 3:8 "And he leaping up stood, and walked, and entered with them into the temple, walking, and leaping, and praising God.
Acts 3:9 "And all the people saw him walking and praising God:
Acts 3:10 "And they knew that it was he which sat for alms at the Beautiful gate of the temple: and they were filled with wonder and amazement at that which had happened unto him.
Acts 3:11 "And as the lame man which was healed held Peter and John, all the people ran together unto them in the porch that is called Solomon's, greatly wondering.
Acts 3:12 "And when Peter saw [it], he answered unto the people, Ye men of Israel, why marvel ye at this? or why look ye so earnestly on us, as though by our own power or holiness we had made this man to walk?
Acts 3:13 "The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let [him] go.
Acts 3:14 "But ye denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you;
Acts 3:15 "And killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses.

PICJAG.
 
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Heart2Soul

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Christians do not heal anyone. We are only a vehicle through which the Holy Spirit works.
I agree that the we cannot manifest any supernatural power of ourselves. It is the Holy Spirit through us. But what hinders the Holy Spirit to operate is our own fear or doubt....lack of faith...or our own failure to be sensitive to what the Holy Spirit is wanting to do.
So now I ask...if we know and agree that it isn't our power but His why do we not see every believer being a vessel for Him to use?
 

marksman

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I agree that the we cannot manifest any supernatural power of ourselves. It is the Holy Spirit through us. But what hinders the Holy Spirit to operate is our own fear or doubt....lack of faith...or our own failure to be sensitive to what the Holy Spirit is wanting to do.
So now I ask...if we know and agree that it isn't our power but His why do we not see every believer being a vessel for Him to use?

Simple. When half of the church believes that the gifts do not apply today and the other half are too afraid of their reputations to use them in case people do not get healed, it is not surprising there is a dearth of them in the church.
 

marksman

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That's me for my reading ability is slowed when I have to concentrate to make out the fine print...so I routinely I increase the font size on each of my posts.


I simply had it too easy in elementary school where nothing was a challenge. In high school work was required so unless I was interested I did not do what was required and finished with mediocre grades. My first try at college I did worse and dropped out less than half way through the first semester. After a couple of years working in concrete, I joined the Army [1963]...


I spent my first year in the army in basic training and Microwave Radio Repair school. From there I was sent to South Viet Nam for a year and then 6 months in the Dominican Republic. When I got out I was ready for college again, but my GI bill only paid me $160.00 a month. I worked in concrete again between classes and on weekends to cover my expenses. I rode a bicycle to classes and lived at home with my mother so food was not a problem.


I started out in natural sciences and ended up with a degree in Spanish Literature with a Minor in German. I was in Mexico City beginning post graduate work and returned to California at Christmas time and met my wife to be... Instead of continuing school, I married her and went to work... concrete, limousine driving and finally with the Social Security Administration. I retired early in 2000.

No politics for me ever.


We've been there and done that, haven't we and now, at least, for me, my life is the Lord and my wife, in that order.



Some people it seems are more interested in winning debates than in other things more essential to living for God, at least as I see it.

Nice to have you here on the forum.

Looks like you had to make quite a few concrete decisions!!
 
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marksman

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Some versions of the Bible speak about the working of miracles but its literal translation is the working of powers. The original word used is dunamis which we get our word dynamite from. This should not surprise us as the word miracles/power means miraculous power; by implication a miracle itself and a demonstration of power, strength or violence.

When it comes to miracles/power we are going up against the power of Satan to change something or to take away from him that which is not rightfully his.

So how do we understand the word/act of a miracle? I will give you an example of a teenager who had only one hand and whilst in a meeting during a prayer time he grew another hand. God had given him back what Satan had taken away so in a sense God was being violent towards satan.

Another example was in a newsletter from a mission that worked in Africa. A mother came up to two Christian nurses who had been speaking about Jesus healing power. In her arms was her dead baby. She said to the nurses, "If your Jesus can bring my baby back to life, I will follow him." Apparently, the witch doctors had tried without success.

In fear and trepidation, the nurses who had not raised anyone from the dead before, in faith laid hands on the baby and prayed. A few moments and the baby came back to life. The mother was true to her word and gave her life to Jesus.

We are told that the whole world lies in the hands of the wicked one. If that is the truth and it is as it is obvious, we as Ambassadors for the Kingdom of God should be fully engaged in all sorts of ways to rescue it from Satan. We can do this when we realise it is not about us but about our calling as disciples of Christ. We have been told to go into all the world and make disciples of all nations. If we don't do this our disciples are not going to do it.

We disciple by demonstrating what we want the disciple to do. If you don't demonstrate the miraculous, your disciple isn't going to demonstrate it and Satan will go on his merry way making a mess of everything.

If you are presented with a situation that demands the miraculous the best way to approach it is to to do so by faith. Faith in God's will for the situation. Faith in God's ability to perform a miracle. Faith that it is not dependent on your faith for something to happen. Only that God will respond to your faith and make it happen. And I have a feeling he will give you all the faith you need to see Him at work.
 
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Helen

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Simple. When half of the church believes that the gifts do not apply today and the other half are too afraid of their reputations to use them in case people do not get healed, it is not surprising there is a dearth of them in the church.

Sadly a True word indeed. :(
 
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Hidden In Him

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There are nine gifts of the Spirit, or in Greek terms nine charismas where we get the word charismatic. Those of you that are secessionists need not read this as you will disagree with everything I will say.

These nine charismas are listed in 1 Corinthians 12. There are other gifts and ministries that are not included in this chapter, such as Ephesians 4:11. These gifts were the province of the ascended Christ to give. It is important to note these are gifts/ministries, not positions.

I will list the nine and then make a few points for clarification.

1. Words of wisdom
2. The gift of knowledge
3. The gift of faith
4. The gift of healing
5. The working of miracles
6. The gift of prophecy
7. The ability to distinguish between spirits (discernment)
8. Various kinds of tongues
9. The interpretation of tongues

The reason the Holy Spirit gives these nine charismas is for the common good. In other words for the benefit of the body of Christ, not for the individual who is operating in the charisma.

Every one of them is inspired by the Holy Spirit and he is the one that decides who will use what gift. We, regardless of our rank or position have no control over their uses and by whom.

The Spirit can use the lowliest people if he chooses to be used and to use any of these nine charismas.

I have been asked if a person can have more than one of the gifts? The answer is simple. That is up to the Holy Spirit to decide. They can if the Spirit so decides. They can't if the Spirit so decides.

They are given at the will of the Spirit so it is important to be ready at any time to be available for the Holy Spirit to work through you and manifest any one of the nine gifts.

That will do for now. I will come back to it for more unraveling of the subject.

Blessings in Christ, marksman. I read through the thread and it is good to see we still have Charismatic-oriented members at this forum, including some new ones : )

About your OP, my opinion is that we (and this is especially true of Cessationists here, since they go entirely on theory), but we tend to read a particular passage like 1 Corinthians 12:8-11 with too much rigidity, as if it is an end-all, be-all description of the only gifts of the Spirit in existence. He was talking to the Corinthians specifically, so why would he mention gifts they were not operating in? He was applying this teaching to them, so if there were other gifts that they were not operating in, it would likely have disturbed them and broken concentration on the points he was trying to make if he started mentioning gifts they didn't have.

I could mention gifts described in the NT that are not mentioned among those in this list, but I have no patience for debate with anyone right now. But part of my reason for believing 1 Cor 12 was never intended to be a complete list is that you will see lists of the fruit of the Spirit listed in scripture, and yet they never include all the same ones. The lists contain similarities, but are never 100% identical. Same with the gifts. If you look at the other lists, they are not the same. So I guess I'm saying, why must we assume 1 Corinthians 12:8-11 is exhaustive? I don't see anything that proves this beyond question, and several things that put it in doubt.
 
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Hope in God

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Thank you, Amadeus for the welcome. I like the words from this passage because they seem to encourage discussion on aspects of the faith, Jude 1:3, ".....it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints." "Earnestly" is a pretty strong word.

I am not married, live alone, and try to read as much as possible, both secular and bible based material. As a former journalist for three daily and two weekly newspapers, as well as freelance work for an industrial magazine, in addition to ownership of a used bookstore, books have surrounded my life for decades.

I sold the store when the steel mills, like falling dominoes, were shutting down and shops downtown were folding all around me. That's when I relocated to the tropics. In a blink, as if they grew in the dark, my house was again filled with books, so I began to sell them online. The money was very good in the early days, prior to everyone and their mother deciding to sell at prices as low as a penny a book, only to make the $3.99 postage.
 

Hidden In Him

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Certainly, cessationists would not approve; yet, even as a Spirit filled believer, I am not well convinced a classroom can lead anyone into a role without the gift having been imparted. I would say this even for teachers, preachers and evangelists

Very good point. I think the command of James that there "be not many teachers" has been broken precisely because of this. Many anoint themselves as teachers without the calling of God, simply based on their schooling, although like yourself I am a strong proponent of Biblical education, especially in the languages. But education alone without the leading of the Spirit just makes someone dangerous. The flesh often leads one to interpretations that are the exact opposite of the truth.
 

amadeus

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Looks like you had to make quite a few concrete decisions!!
Without a doubt. I thought I would always be in concrete, but God had something else in mind for me. Praise His name!
 

Berserk

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On this topic it is important to recognize that Paul does not write systematic theology. So we can't assume that his 3 lists of spiritual gifts are exhaustive (1 Cor. 12; Rom. 12; Eph. 4). I'm thinking, for example, of a young peasant girl in China. When the Pentecostal revival was ignited there, the result was 80 million house church Charismatics speaking in tongues! This uneducated peasant girls begin to receive worship melodies and to date has written hundreds of hymns and praise choruses that are sung all over China. She received the gift of music by being filled with the Spirit. So music is, I believe, another gift or charism of the Holy Spirit. Of course there is a difference between natural musical talent and spiritual charisms. I intend to devote some reflection on what other charisms might exist that Paul does not identify as spiritual gifts. Can you think of some?
 
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Heart2Soul

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On this topic it is important to recognize that Paul does not write systematic theology. So we can't assume that his 3 lists of spiritual gifts are exhaustive (1 Cor. 12; Rom. 12; Eph. 4). I'm thinking, for example, of a young peasant girl in China. When the Pentecostal revival was ignited there, the result was 80 million house church Charismatics speaking in tongues! This uneducated peasant girls begin to receive worship melodies and to date has written hundreds of hymns and praise choruses that are sung all over China. She received the gift of music by being filled with the Spirit. So music is, I believe, another gift or charism of the Holy Spirit. Of course there is a difference between natural musical talent and spiritual charisms. I intend to devote some reflection on what other charisms might exist that Paul does not identify as spiritual gifts. Can you think of some?
Those who can create...from God given dreams and thoughts.
The Book of John made a conclusive statement saying that "many more miracles did Jesus do and that to write them all down he supposed all the books in the world could not contain them."....it leaves my thoughts to ponder what all He did do
 

marksman

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Blessings in Christ, marksman. I read through the thread and it is good to see we still have Charismatic-oriented members at this forum, including some new ones : )

About your OP, my opinion is that we (and this is especially true of Cessationists here, since they go entirely on theory), but we tend to read a particular passage like 1 Corinthians 12:8-11 with too much rigidity, as if it is an end-all, be-all description of the only gifts of the Spirit in existence. He was talking to the Corinthians specifically, so why would he mention gifts they were not operating in? He was applying this teaching to them, so if there were other gifts that they were not operating in, it would likely have disturbed them and broken concentration on the points he was trying to make if he started mentioning gifts they didn't have.

I could mention gifts described in the NT that are not mentioned among those in this list, but I have no patience for debate with anyone right now. But part of my reason for believing 1 Cor 12 was never intended to be a complete list is that you will see lists of the fruit of the Spirit listed in scripture, and yet they never include all the same ones. The lists contain similarities, but are never 100% identical. Same with the gifts. If you look at the other lists, they are not the same. So I guess I'm saying, why must we assume 1 Corinthians 12:8-11 is exhaustive? I don't see anything that proves this beyond question, and several things that put it in doubt.

Sorry but I do not agree with you. When God commissioned the scriptures to be written he did not intend to confuse. 1 Cor 12 is the only passage that specifically deals with the nine gifts of the Spirit which is the focus of my thread. There are other gifts and ministries but they are not part of the nine gifts in 1 Cor 12.

For example, the ascended Christ gave Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists, Shepherds and Teachers to the church with a view to the perfecting of the saints for the work of the ministry, for the building up of the body of Christ. They are ministries, not positions so a person's authority is when they are functioning in that ministry so it is wrong to allocate a parking spot nearest the door to the church for a pastor.

The word for fruit as in the fruit of the Spirit is karpos which is different from the word for the gifts (charisma) which is dunamis so they are different and have different purposes.
 

Hidden In Him

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1 Cor 12 is the only passage that specifically deals with the nine gifts of the Spirit which is the focus of my thread. There are other gifts and ministries but they are not part of the nine gifts in 1 Cor 12.

I have no argument with there being nine in 1 Corinthians 12. Are you arguing that there are only nine throughout the NT and Christendom? Your leading line in the OP appears to suggest this, and you seem to be arguing with other's contentions that there are likely more, yet you admit that "there are other gifts." Or did you mean other gifts but not supernatural ones?
 
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Hidden In Him

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@marksman.
Let me ask you this: Do you consider bodily translocation from one place to another to be a charism or not?

38 Then both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water and Philip baptized him. 39 When they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord suddenly caught Philip away, and the eunuch did not see him again, but went on his way rejoicing. 40 Philip, however, appeared at Azotus and traveled about, preaching the gospel in all the towns until he reached Caesarea. (Acts 8:38-40)

Also what do you believe about the interpretation of dreams and visions? What about the receiving of revelation from the Spirit? This seems to be described as a gift in and of itself in 1 Corinthians 14:26-30; one with priority over prophecy.

I don't think it really causes confusion personally to think of there being the possibly of more than nine supernatural gifts. Rather, I see it as not pinning God down to only a certain set of manifestations, and denouncing anything else that doesn't happen to be on that list.

Maybe I should ask why you find it so important to define these as the only nine given to the church. I read through the first few pages of the thread but I couldn't really make out what you were arguing for.
 
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Heart2Soul

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@marksman.
Let me ask you this: Do you consider bodily translocation from one place to another to be a charism or not?

38 Then both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water and Philip baptized him. 39 When they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord suddenly caught Philip away, and the eunuch did not see him again, but went on his way rejoicing. 40 Philip, however, appeared at Azotus and traveled about, preaching the gospel in all the towns until he reached Caesarea. (Acts 8:38-40)

Also what do you believe about the interpretation of dreams and visions? What about the receiving of revelation from the Spirit? This seems to be described as a gift in and of itself in 1 Corinthians 14:26-30; one with priority over prophecy.

I don't think it really causes confusion personally to think of there being the possibly of more than nine supernatural gifts. Rather, I see it as not pinning God down to only a certain set of manifestations, and denouncing anything else that doesn't happen to be on that list.

Maybe I should ask why you find it so important to define these as the only nine given to the church. I read through the first few pages of the thread but I couldn't really make out what you were arguing for.
And let's not limit God's supernatural power to just the gifts. Example: feeding the multitude with 2 fish and 5 loaves of bread and gathering leftovers...turning water into wine...speaking through a donkey's mouth...
These are workings of miracles...dream interpretation is a gift and a calling but can be categorized as prophecy...Daniel interpreting Nebuchadnezzar's dream...very prophetic.
 
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Hidden In Him

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And let's not limit God's supernatural power to just the gifts. Example: feeding the multitude with 2 fish and 5 loaves of bread and gathering leftovers...turning water into wine...speaking through a donkey's mouth...

The multiplication of the fishes and loaves and turning water into wine would both likely be classified as miracles. As for the donkey, maybe that's a manifestation of "speaking in tongues," LoL.
 

Heart2Soul

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The multiplication of the fishes and loaves and turning water into wine would both likely be classified as miracles. As for the donkey, maybe that's a manifestation of "speaking in tongues," LoL.
:cool: lol