Smoke Screens?

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stunnedbygrace

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And you know, I have to wonder, is the part of me that gets discouraged a tiny little piece of me that wants to grab a little bit of the glory for having been a part of a baby being born...?

But, I also think that we send out people to sow seed who haven't yet died and learned to walk in the Spirit. So, I'm not saying sowing seed is a bad thing, of course its not, but is it sometimes just words but no power that is the problem?

Just musing.
 

Grailhunter

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We just have to get you to use the software features here. :D

Your "thanks" was spoken into the air.

Maybe it was a prayer to God? ;)

Well I am getting use to the site. and I now get the tag. Anything else I should know?
 

Helen

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But, I also think that we send out people to sow seed who haven't yet died and learned to walk in the Spirit. So, I'm not saying sowing seed is a bad thing, of course its not, but is it sometimes just words but no power that is the problem?

Just musing.


I think that is where Faith comes in.
There is no way that I could have done the Pubs, Clubs and Bars, going up to people talking to them about the Lord, and then moving on to the next bar , it was physically draining....but we had the mantle of anointing upon us.

We had that confirmed, because the very day that God lifted that mantle it was OVER!! Five years...then one day I got out of the car outside a Bar, started walking toward the door, I turned to Dave and said...."I'm sorry, God has taken His hand off me, I have nothing to take into the Bar...I cannot go in alone without God. "

So 'for me'...fruit or not, obedience and Faith is the issue.
But, it may be different for others.
 

Helen

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Well I am getting use to the site. and I now get the tag. Anything else I should know?

You are doing well :)

Another interesting thing. If you are reading posts by someone else and you wish to add some two cents to the conversation. In the post abouve you se I have quoted Stundbygrace if you wanted to find that post of hers you can wave your curser, finger, whatever, to the right of her name.
You will see < stunnedbyGrace said : >
See those two tiny dots?

These 'dots' will spin you back, even if it is two pages back...to the post ...
( on this post , but on the post where I am responding to her)

Just a handy little feature :)
 
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Helen

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@Grailhunter I may have been misleading about those tiny dots zipping you way back to the original post quoted. Because, depending how good your eyes are ..just a fraction to the right of the dots is a VERY FAINT up- arrow. Hard to see.
THAT is what actually zaps you right back to quoted post.
 

Grailhunter

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@Grailhunter I may have been misleading about those tiny dots zipping you way back to the original post quoted. Because, depending how good your eyes are ..just a fraction to the right of the dots is a VERY FAINT up- arrow. Hard to see.
THAT is what actually zaps you right back to quoted post.

No problem...having a blast. Like you gals. I may have walked on GodsGrace earlier, doing a little experimenting.
 
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epostle

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Have Christians, and our Christian churches, taught about a personal relationship with Jesus for salvation or have they put up smoke screens that keeps people from developing a personal relationship with Jesus in their hearts?

When you ask most Christians why they think they are Christians and on their way to heaven they will tell you some, if not all, of the following things,

1.) they try to be good
2.) they say they belong to the ONE AND ONLY TRUE CHURCH organization
3.) they go to church
4.) they pray
5.) they participate in church ceremonies and rituals
6.) They give money to Charities.
7.) they say they believe that Jesus died on the cross and they have tried to be like Him and
do good works to become worthy.

But none of these answers will get you into heaven. The only answer is because they believe Jesus was the Son of God and He died on the cross to pay for ALL their sins. That is what they have faith in and it is the only reason they are going to heaven. -- To add any of the things listed above, 1-7, indicates that person is not a Christian because the person is adding his/here works to gain salvation.
That is a straw man fallacy.
As usual, McCarthy (along with many other Calvinist anti-Catholics) is unwilling or unable to understand the relationship of human free will to God’s grace. We believe we can cooperate with God’s grace in order to “merit.” Yet that very merit is itself completely an act of God’s grace. Here is some more relevant information to consider:
The Second Council of Orange (529 A.D.), accepted as dogma by the Catholic Church, dogmatically taught in its Canon 7:

If anyone asserts that we can, by our natural powers, think as we ought, or choose any good pertaining to the salvation of eternal life . . . without the illumination and inspiration of the Holy Spirit . . . he is misled by a heretical spirit . . . [goes on to cite Jn 15:5, 2 Cor 3:5]

Likewise, the ecumenical Council of Trent (1545-63): Chapter 5, Decree on Justification:

. . . Man . . . is not able, by his own free-will, without the grace of God, to move himself unto justice in His sight.

Canon I on Justification:

If anyone saith that man may be justified before God by his own works, whether done through the teaching of human nature or that of the law, without the grace of God through Jesus Christ; let him be anathema.

The existence of a measure of human free will in order for man to cooperate with God’s grace does not reduce inevitably and necessarily to Semi-Pelagianism, as Luther, Calvin, and present-day Calvinists wrongly charge. The Catholic view is a third way. Our “meritorious actions” are always necessarily preceded and caused and crowned and bathed in God’s enabling grace. But this doesn’t wipe out our cooperation, which is not intrinsically meritorious in the sense that it derives from us and not God . . . Second Orange again:

The reward given for good works is not won by reason of actions which precede grace, but grace, which is unmerited, precedes actions in order that they may be accomplished meritoriously.

Catholic theologian Ludwig Ott describes the Catholic view:

As God’s grace is the presupposition and foundation of supernatural good works, by which man merits eternal life, so salutary works are, at the same time gifts of God and meritorious acts of man. (Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, Rockford, Illinois: TAN Books, 1974 [orig. 1952], 264)

St. Augustine wrote:

What merit of man is there before grace by which he can achieve grace, as only grace works every one of our good merits in us, and as God, when He crowns our merits, crowns nothing else but His own gifts? (Ep. 194, 5, 19; in Ott, 265)

The Lord has made Himself a debtor, not by receiving, but by promising. Man cannot say to Him, “Give back what thou hast received” but only “Give what thou hast promised.” (Enarr. in Ps 83, 16; in Ott, 267)

The concept of merit and its corollary reward is well-supported in Scripture (Mt 5:12; 19:17, 21, 29; 25:21; 25:34 ff.; Lk 6:38; Rom 2:6; 1 Cor 3:8; 9:17; Col 3:24; Heb 6:10; 10:35; 11:6; 2 Tim 4:8; Eph 6:8).

. . . . The Catholic Church was right in maintaining against Luther, at the Council of Trent, that heaven is merited by our good works, because this is the clear teaching of revelation. “We have shown that according to Holy Scripture the Christian can actually merit heaven for himself by his good works. But we must realize that these works have to be performed in the state of grace and with a good intention . . .

Jesus himself tells his disciples: ‘I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in me (by the state of grace), and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit (for heaven). If a man does not abide in me (by mortal sin) . . . he can do nothing’ – he can bear no fruit for heaven; just as the branch that is cut off from the vine cannot produce any grapes.

By sanctifying grace we are children of God. Only by sanctifying grace do we have a right to heaven as our heritage. By purely natural good acts, such as even the sinner can perform, heaven cannot be merited as a reward; we must be in the state of grace, a child of God. Only after human nature has been united to God by grace and raised up above it’s own nature can good acts, which proceed from this supernaturally elevated nature, be directed towards the possession of God in the hereafter. Only in this way can we merit the vision of God in heaven, since it completely surpasses the powers of our pure human nature.

By sanctifying grace we become living members of the mystical body of Christ, one with Christ our Head. Thus our acts become acts of Christ, who, in an incomprehensible way, is living and working in [p. 264] his members. Through this intimate union with Christ, our Mediator before the Father, we merit the happiness of heaven.

Finally, sanctifying grace makes us temples of the Holy Spirit, who compels us to good works (Rom 8:14). St. Francis de Sales writes that the Holy Spirit performs good works in us with such consummate skill that the works belong more to him than to us. He works with us and we work with him. In this activity we use our free will. By our free will we submit all our human activity to the grace and will of God. By this act of reverence and worship, our good acts redound to the glory of God. Our will could also take a stand against God’s will, and commit sin.

By isolating sentences (the classic and quintessential anti-Catholic methodology) which emphasize man’s cooperation and effort, it appears that McCarthy (and H. Richard) had hoped to leave a false impression that we believe we can get to heaven on our own power, pulling ourselves up by our own bootstraps, without God’s enabling grace. But this is the heresy of Pelagianism, which both Catholic dogma and Premm (even in immediate context) clearly condemn.

This is, therefore, apparently deliberate misrepresentation on McCarthy’s part, and that is a serious sin — a violation of the Ten Commandments and even basic pagan and secular ethical precepts. Whatever McCarthy or other anti-Catholics think of our theology, their own Christian tradition (as well as Jesus Himself) condemn them for slander and lying, whether we are Christian “brothers” or not, in their thinking. As we indeed are their brothers in Christ, their sin is all the greater. McCarthy’s polemical anti-Catholic video has also been clearly shown by Catholic apologetics magazine This Rock to be slanderous and grossly inaccurate. Let us hope and pray that he will repent, for his sake, and for the sake of the thousands he is leading astray.
Catholic Merit vs. Distorted Caricatures (James McCarthy)
 
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justbyfaith

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Man can never merit eternal life. His heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked; who can know it? (Jeremiah 17:9)

Since the heart of man is in total depravity, nothing he does can be meritorious towards his entrance into the kingdom of heaven (Isaiah 64:6).

The only salvation, therefore, rests in forgiveness through the blood of Jesus Christ.
 

GodsGrace

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Thats fair.

I guess it all hangs on whether we believe that when Jesus said- Matt 4
"It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.” That is what He was saying...

And He was quoting Deut 8.3
"...that He might make thee know that man doth not live by bread only, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of the LORD doth man live."

Which ever translation you use...it is in the present tense.
Not what God said...but what God is saying today.
Direction, guidance, ....that is why Jesus sent the Holy Spirit.

Some believe God is a Father who speaks and has a relationship today, some believe He is a Father who 'has spoken', and doesn't converse with us today, except via reading the bible.

No sweat at all. :)
We're a little different...
but a lot the same.
 

GodsGrace

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Well, that would have to be a really long conversation. Let me start by saying that Richard is the one I was responding to. I always forget to hit quote, sorry.

So by partial truth, what I mean is...

One man comes in and says: I believe Jesus died for my sins and I'm saved, are you saved? And the other man says, oh yeah, you betcha', I'm saved too!
And then, as our friend Bbyrd says, they just start singing "when we all get to heaven." The mindset is on how wonderful that future time will be.

Then another man comes in and points out verses that are scary. Not the pleasant sounding ones we are happy to grab. And right then is the point at which we could learn balance, but...that would only be if we were here to learn.
Oh boy.
I think that would be me.
But we're saved....
no need to be scared!
I DO understand your point.
Should I shut up?

(I could hear @"ByGrace" saying YES)
 
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GodsGrace

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Note:- if you want to get our attention to your post , its best to tag us. :)
If you just write " ByGrace" it is not 'alive', and wont show up in our alerts.

But if you write it as @GodsGrace she will now get an Alert when she check back on here. just a heads up.

Good question.

I can only answer via my own experience.
The Lord called my hubby and I to do Bar and Pub work.
Every Friday night my dad would babysit our kids and we would go around the Pubs, Clubs and Bars in our area and towns outside our area.

( what made this easy... David was a 'professional' drinker... :) It almost ruined our marriage...so he knew every bar in a 150 mile radius. )

God gave us the passion and desire for this ministry. Our home church prayed for us while we were 'out there' on Fridays. We talked to hundreds.
We also got into many dangerous situations...so were thankful for prayer covering.

We did it for five years.
Two years in we were getting a bit down about it because we didn't SEE a whole lot of fruit for our labours.
We were talking to two of our prayer covering and they were retired Missionaries from Africa.
They encouraged us and said ..."Fruit or not , is not your business, you just do what God has told you to do, = sow seed.
God will take care of the 'watering' and the 'harvest'...which you probably wont even see. "

That encouraged us. And the next three years we did what we were called to do.
So "successful " cannot be measured here, ... but for each of us Obedience is the issue at hand...the outcome is in Fathers hands.

That's my two cents. :)
Hey H,

Got your tag.
You called me..
Now tell me what you want!
 
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stunnedbygrace

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Yes. You should know that ByGrace is the resident Guru. :cool: So tread carefully. Just kidding.

I'm the resident guru...? Ha! Didn't know that. :D:p

I thought I was probably viewed as Sister Speaks A Lot.:D

I have this thing where I've learned a little bit (very LITTLE bit) about beginning to walk in the Spirit with a less wobbly gait, and I know every mistake and error I have made along the way. About walking in the Spirit, I can't even speak really, except to keep pounding on the one thing that will get us there. Trust, trust and more trust. Just a constant refrain of - I don't understand Lord, but I trust You. I don't like whatever this is You are doing, its making me sad and cranky, but I trust You Lord. I have no idea how you are going to bring me the money I need in 3 more days and You have cut it very close, but I trust You Lord. And on and on, just trust, see where you really aren't trusting but are doing an end around so sneaky that you even fooled YOURSELF that it wasnt a lack of trust. And then, begin practicing trust in that area. Its...learning the obedience of faith (trust).

I am a broken record that will keep playing one word over and over again - trust. It was struggle for me to get where I am in it and if I can help lessen anyone else's frustration, I will just keep repeating the word!
 
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