Is there salvation outside the Catholic Church?

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BreadOfLife

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. . . a 1700 year old religion…since the ecumenical councils…
So, can you substantiate your claim that the Church is only 1700 years old - or have you also been infected by GG's lies?
 

GodsGrace

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I already HAVE proven it. Unlike YOU, I won’t post the same texts repeatedly out of desperation. You rejected what I presented, which speaks volumes about your ignorance of Catholic teaching.

The Canon Law you posted doesn’t proclaim that withholding or allowing Communion is a Doctrinal OR Dogmatic assertion. It makes the case that mortal sin is a Doctrinal and Dogmatic teaching.

NOT sure why you think you “know more” about the Catholic Church than I do – but you can go ahead and live in your warped world. I proved you wrong by exposing your lie and revealed that not only do you NOT understand the texts that you presented – but that your ignorance of Catholic teaching is FAR worse than I originally thought.

Next time – pick a topic that you have some sort of grasp of . . .
I have a grasp on EVERY topic that concerns the Catholic Church.

What I posted proves that communion cannot be given TO THOSE REMARRIED because they are living IN MORTAL SIN.

I know much more about the catholic church than you do.
This is just a fact.

From now on, when I make a comment that is CORRECT and YOU call me a liar,
THIS IS WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN.
PAGES of me posting proof and you just insulting me.

So, are you bowing out?
Don't you have anything else to post?

Maybe you'd like to read the following too.
You could learn something.
And LOOK...from Apostolic times the church has taught the following!!

It is disturbing that the text never mentions the universal moral obligation held and taught since the Apostles for separated spouses to abstain from non-marital intercourse.


source: Five Serious Problems with Chapter 8 of Amoris Laetitia – Catholic World Report



There's much more where that came from.
Your choice to continue.

But if you do,,,PLEASE POST INFORMATION AND STOP CALLING ME NAMES.
Thanks.
 

Grailhunter

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So, can you substantiate your claim that the Church is only 1700 years old - or have you also been infected by GG's lies?

You know, I see people fighting history and I do not have to waste my words. I get that a religion can say that Christ was the Pope or was Catholic. Matters not to me how you count it. Godsgrace would choke on a lie before it would come out of her mouth. Your demeanor says everything that Christ taught was wasted on you. You think you are defending the Catholic belief, you are a disgrace to everything it stand for.
 
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GodsGrace

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So, can you substantiate your claim that the Church is only 1700 years old - or have you also been infected by GG's lies?
Oh my BoL...

We're all not perfect as you are.

Perhaps he was thinking that for the first 300 years the church was PURE...
until it got involved with ROME?
 

BreadOfLife

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I have a grasp on EVERY topic that concerns the Catholic Church.

What I posted proves that communion cannot be given TO THOSE REMARRIED because they are living IN MORTAL SIN.

I know much more about the catholic church than you do.
This is just a fact.

From now on, when I make a comment that is CORRECT and YOU call me a liar,
THIS IS WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN.
PAGES of me posting proof and you just insulting me.

So, are you bowing out?
Don't you have anything else to post?

Maybe you'd like to read the following too.
You could learn something.
And LOOK...from Apostolic times the church has taught the following!!

It is disturbing that the text never mentions the universal moral obligation held and taught since the Apostles for separated spouses to abstain from non-marital intercourse.

source: Five Serious Problems with Chapter 8 of Amoris Laetitia – Catholic World Report


There's much more where that came from.
Your choice to continue.

But if you do,,,PLEASE POST INFORMATION AND STOP CALLING ME NAMES.
Thanks.
And I never called you a "liar" - which is another of your lies.

My wife cooked a meal the other night that wasn't my cup of tea, so I told her. Did call her a "bad cook"??
NO
- and neither did I call you a "Liar". I said that you LIED - which have been doing these last several pages.

I have given you proof - over and over again. I presented quotes from:
- Canon Law
- Early Church Fathers
- Vatican Officials
- Pope John Paul II


You rejected ALL of it and now you claim that I "never" gave you any proof.
I'm not going to play your idiotic games. ADDRESS the proof I presented and we'll go from there.
 

BreadOfLife

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Oh my BoL...

We're all not perfect as you are.

Perhaps he was thinking that for the first 300 years the church was PURE...
until it got involved with ROME?
What an historically-bankrupt statement.
The Church was in Rome since the FIRST Century.

You never read Acts?? Or 1st Peter?? Or Romans??
You never read the testimonies of the Early Church Fathers testifying to this fact?? And YOU claim that you "know more" about the Catholic Church than I??

Only in your dreams . . .
 

BreadOfLife

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You know, I see people fighting history and I do not have to waste my words. I get that a religion can say that Christ was the Pope or was Catholic. Matters not to me how you count it. Godsgrace would choke on a lie before it would come out of her mouth. Your demeanor says everything that Christ taught was wasted on you. You think you are defending the Catholic belief, you are a disgrace to everything it stand for.
First of all - where do you get the false idea that the Church claims CHRIST was the first Pope??
That's nonsense.

Secondly - Lies have been spewing out of GG's keyboard for the last several dozen posts - so I'm NOT sure why you would say that she doesn't lie.

Finally - I am only a "disgrace" to you because I won't let you guys get away with your garbage and it frustrates you.
Lying and defending lies only begets MORE lies. Go lie somewhere else - but not on MY watch . . .


PS - I also see that you couldn't substantiate your LIE that the Catholic Church is only 1700 years old.
That's what I thought . . .
 
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BreadOfLife

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The crisis today in the relationships of men and women is multi-faceted. The general lack of manners in their interaction is both an indication and a cause of the crisis.

Women are to be reverenced, always and just because they are women. This truth, as other basic truths, is universally knowable, even though not universally known and practiced.

The nature and dignity of woman may remain something of a mystery to most men. But nevertheless, actions that show reverence to women can and should be expected of them. It was once so, as part of a code of manners. If universally expected, these actions will be generally practiced; and among some, perhaps even many, the corresponding interior dispositions will grow.

On the very first page of Emily Post’s Etiquette we find the following instructions about introductions:

First, a younger person is presented to an older person. Second, a gentleman is always presented to a lady, even though she is no older than eighteen. Third, no woman is ever presented to a man, unless he is: the President of the United States, the recognized head of another country; a member of a royal family; a cardinal or other church dignitary.

Such instructions probably strike us, especially the young, as odd. But then again, they seem to speak to something deep within us. In every introduction involving a woman, she is to be given a certain priority and reverence. Such customary manners were an expression of a communal understanding, even if only implicit, about the dignity of woman. But more than just an expression, they were a central means of cultivating and promoting that understanding and a corresponding reverence.

There will always be men, even among those who do practice good manners, who will view and treat women inappropriately. The condition of our human nature, including our freedom, pretty much assures this. But rather than lessening the importance of manners, it gives special reason to value them. We all, especially parents, have every reason to redouble our efforts to instill good manners and customary practices between men and women.

Such practices are of course the responsibility of both sexes. But the responsibility falls first upon men, and it is there that I focus my attention. It is worth simply calling to mind some traditional practices.

As a rule, a man holds the door for a woman; he offers his seat to a woman; he offers to carry something heavy; he walks on the side closer to traffic; he offers his umbrella; he gives more attention to his clothes and grooming in her presence; he is especially vigilant about his language; he does not pry into her private life. And in all these things he is careful not to seem patronizing or pushy. Indeed, now that such practices can be seen as offensive by some women, it is all the more incumbent upon a man to act with prudence and in no way to seem to be ‘making a point’ of his manners.

The interaction between men and women in contexts either potentially or actually romantic calls for special attention. Traditional practices here, which in fact go beyond what would normally be called manners, were rooted in a two main convictions: first, romance is ordered toward marriage, and second, the human condition demands that steps be taken to protect the integrity of romance, and especially to protect the honor of women. Rather than stemming from a prudish recoiling from the romantic or from a dark distrust of people, the observance of such rules of interaction is the fruit of an insight into the very nature of man and woman and of an understanding that their healthy interaction needs fostering.

Emily Post wrote:

If a young girl’s family is not at home, she should not, on returning from a party, invite or allow her date to ‘come in for a while.’ If he persists, she should tell him firmly, ‘Sorry, another time,’ and bid him ‘good night.’ However, if her parents are home and have been notified, it is perfectly all right to invite him in for a snack. He should not stay overly long, and if he shows no inclination to leave, the girl should tell him that her parents have set a definite ‘curfew’ hour.

These guidelines might strike us as too much, or as too specific. What is worth noticing, it seems to me, is the common sense approach to addressing a real issue. Whatever their exact formulation, when rules such as the above are commonly practiced they incarnate and convey a sense of propriety and limit. Young men and women are thus given to understand that their interaction is part of something bigger than themselves, something that will demand much of them. These are points that young men, in particular, need to learn. Acting well by the women in their life will always be an arduous task. To have to work hard to ‘win’ their way into relationships is a fitting preparation.

How to formulate and promulgate reasonable practices in this area will challenge even the most vibrant families and communities today. Perhaps the most challenging aspect is to make the practices an expression not of fear but of hope. Healthy communities have always realized that the proper relating of men and women is a flower that needs careful, communal cultivation. It does not bloom and flourish of itself.

Some today might ask what basis there is for giving women special care and attention. This is of course in itself a profound question. Yet at times the spirit in which the question is posed can indicate that certain fundamental insights have simply been lost. More and more we tend to see ‘nature’ as something to re-mold according to our wishes, and we do not hear what she is saying to us about who we are.

Women are deserving of special reverence not because of weakness, but because of strength. In women, a man can intuit the presence of something that transcends his comprehension. It is in reality something of the divine, something that is somehow his to cherish, to serve, and to protect. Just what it is, and how best to respond to it, he will need to spend a lifetime trying to discover.

Good manners in the interaction of men and women is a great tool in this effort. And we can work together in our communities to reclaim and reform these expressions of an ancient wisdom.
I know how to treat a lady - and when I see one, I'll accordingly.
I also know how to treat dishonest people - which is what I'm doing with GG . . .
 

aspen

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Mark 10:4
They said, "Moses permitted a man TO WRITE A CERTIFICATE OF DIVORCE AND SEND her AWAY."

Deuteronomy 24:1-4
"When a man takes a wife and marries her, and it happens that she finds no favor in his eyes because he has found some indecency in her, and he writes her a certificate of divorce and puts it in her hand and sends her out from his house, and she leaves his house and goes and becomes another man's wife, and if the latter husband turns against her and writes her a certificate of divorce and puts it in her hand and sends her out of his house, or if the latter husband dies who took her to be his wife”

Hosea 2:2
"Contend with your mother, contend, For she is not my wife, and I am not her husband; And let her put away her harlotry from her face And her adultery from between her breasts,”

Isaiah 50:1
Thus says the LORD, "Where is the certificate of divorce By which I have sent your mother away? Or to whom of My creditors did I sell you? Behold, you were sold for your iniquities, And for your transgressions your mother was sent away.”

Jeremiah 3:8
"And I saw that for all the adulteries of faithless Israel, I had sent her away and given her a writ of divorce, yet her treacherous sister Judah did not fear; but she went and was a harlot also.”
 

GodsGrace

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And I never called you a "liar" - which is another of your lies.

My wife cooked a meal the other night that wasn't my cup of tea, so I told her. Did call her a "bad cook"??
NO
- and neither did I call you a "Liar". I said that you LIED - which have been doing these last several pages.

I have given you proof - over and over again. I presented quotes from:
- Canon Law
- Early Church Fathers
- Vatican Officials
- Pope John Paul II


You rejected ALL of it and now you claim that I "never" gave you any proof.
I'm not going to play your idiotic games. ADDRESS the proof I presented and we'll go from there.
You have done nothing over and over but diminish me AND the catholic church with your lies, and your lies are purposeful....

I replied to Canon Law
ECFs
Vatican Officials
Pope John Paul II

You presented NO PROOF except one article that repeated the word DISCIPLINE and it didn't even mean what we're discussing but it meant the TEACHING of the church.

This will be my last reply to you...I've wasted enough time with you.
Before leaving, I will post some more links for those reading along that are interested.

I explained in detail to you why we're speaking of Dogma/Doctrine and not Discipline.
If you want to believe that giving a person IN MORTAL SIN is a discipline....believe what you will.

The following is a link to YouTube...
PLENTY OF LISTENING is available on this important subject, which YOU do not seem to understand.

can remarrieds receive communion - YouTube

vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv

Regarding the ECFs....


vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv

The Vatican Officials is covered under the YouTube link.

vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv

Pope John Paul II affirmed it is WRONG to give communion to someone in mortal sin.
So why do you even mention him?

Q – (Francis Rocca, The Wall Street Journal) You cited the 1984 "Familiaris Consortio,” but in this document at no. 84 the pope writes that the Church reiterates its practice founded on scripture of not admitting the divorced and remarried to communion unless they take on the commitment of living in complete continence. So, in black and white, the question is: has something changed with respect to thirty-five years ago? Is there a possibility in the papal magisterium not foreseen by John Paul? And if so, in the continuity of the papal magisterium is there a reason why a subsequent pope could not again maintain that it is opportune and necessary to reiterate this practice?

source: Müller Out, Schönborn In. The Pope Has Changed Doctrine Teachers


vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv

And, of course, the Pope does believe remarrieds can receive communion....
much to your dismay, HE DID MAKE A CHANGE IN DOGMA/DOCTRINE.

Müller Out, Schönborn In. The Pope Has Changed Doctrine Teachers


Pope Francis 'tells sinner she should be allowed Communion'


You are incapable of having an intelligent conversation.
 
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GodsGrace

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What an historically-bankrupt statement.
The Church was in Rome since the FIRST Century.

You never read Acts?? Or 1st Peter?? Or Romans??
You never read the testimonies of the Early Church Fathers testifying to this fact?? And YOU claim that you "know more" about the Catholic Church than I??

Only in your dreams . . .
YOU'RE A WASTE OF EVERYONE'S TIME.

THEY SHOULDN'T EVEN BE SPEAKING TO YOU.
 

GodsGrace

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I know how to treat a lady - and when I see one, I'll accordingly.
I also know how to treat dishonest people - which is what I'm doing with GG . . .
I doubt you see many...
ladies don't like to hang out with your type.
 

GodsGrace

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Is there salvation outside the Catholic Church?
Of course their is!
I agree QT.
Salvation is wherever God is.
And God is everywhere!
The Catholic Church did not invent salvation.
God did...way back in the O.T.

And He taught us how to be saved....
the clearest way was with Jesus.
 
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aspen

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Hey I think you guys have reached the end. Agree to disagree
 

aspen

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Yes, there is salvation outside the Catholic Church - God wants to save us! God is not going to lose
 
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prism

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If you are agreeing that scripture holds an authorative witness of the authority given to the apostles ,by Jesus, and through them to the overseers and presbyters... Well I agree !

Peace be with you!
Here is how I would word it...
If you are agreeing that scripture holds an authorative witness of the authority given to the apostles ,by Jesus, and through them to all who abide by that authority as laid out by Scripture.... Well I agree !
 

prism

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Christ sent the Holy Spirit to use His CHURCH as the teaching instrument to the world (Matt. 28:19-20, John 16:12-15).
Without Christ's Church - you wouldn't have any idea who He is. STUDY your Bible . . .
Yes the Church is the Church as long as it abides in the teaching of the Prophets and Apostles.

And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers. (Act 2:42)

And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.
(Luk 24:27)

If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
(2Jn 1:10)
 
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