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CharismaticLady

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Are you suggesting that our salvation is based upon what we do, and NOT upon what God and Christ have ALREADY DONE?

BTW, forget about OSAS. We should talk only about the eternal security of the believer. People who doubt this do not have a proper understanding of salvation in all its ramifications.

When we are filled with God's Spirit, who do you think is in control? Us, or the Spirit? We are dead to sin.
 

justbyfaith

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When we are filled with God's Spirit, who do you think is in control? Us, or the Spirit?
If I may answer for him, the answer is both.

Obviously the Spirit has control when we are submitted to Him. But it is also true that the fruit of the Spirit is, among other things, self-control.
 

CharismaticLady

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If I may answer for him, the answer is both.

Obviously the Spirit has control when we are submitted to Him. But it is also true that the fruit of the Spirit is, among other things, self-control.

I just get tired of people who know nothing of the power of the Spirit asking dumb questions about works. Jesus freed us from sin, not punishment, as some believe.
 

Enoch111

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When we are filled with God's Spirit, who do you think is in control? Us, or the Spirit? We are dead to sin.
This is entirely beside the point. On what exactly is salvation based? That is the real issue.

We have the OP essentially calling the biblical doctrine of salvation *garbage*.
 
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amadeus

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Probably not. Freewill is good.
Freewill is good? The only choices a man are God or mammon. So most people go for mammon. Is that good or is it God who is good?

"And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God." Mark 10:18
 

VictoryinJesus

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The NT word "believe" must include endurance, obedience, practicing righteousness, etc.
because all of these CONDITIONS are blatantly obvious in the NT.

Matthew 6:33
[33] But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.
...endurance, obedience, and his righteousness. “Seek first ...his righteousness...” is not dormant but moves ...not something to put on and mask but to seek “his righteousness” above their own.

Romans 10:3-8 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. [4] For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth. [5] For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them. [6] But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above [7] Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.) [8] But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart:... THAT is, the word of faith, which we preach;

The word of Faith...near unto thee...even in your mouth, and in your heart.

Seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness (having submitted unto the righteousness of God) ...and all these things will be added ...endurance, obedience, and His righteousness.
 

justbyfaith

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I just get tired of people who know nothing of the power of the Spirit asking dumb questions about works. Jesus freed us from sin, not punishment, as some believe.
Obviously a man is delivered from punishment if he is delivered from sin.

But yes, Christ, in shedding His blood, paid the penalty (and took the punishment for) our sins.
 

CharismaticLady

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This is entirely beside the point. On what exactly is salvation based? That is the real issue.

We have the OP essentially calling the biblical doctrine of salvation *garbage*.

The "biblical doctrine of salvation" is not once saved, always saved.
 

CharismaticLady

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Obviously a man is delivered from punishment if he is delivered from sin.

But yes, Christ, in shedding His blood, paid the penalty (and took the punishment for) our sins.

But, not so we can willfully sin without punishment. If you willfully sin after being cleansed of all sin, you are turning your allegiance once again to Satan. That is why Paul said, "the wages of sin is death."
 

Enoch111

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The "biblical doctrine of salvation" is not once saved, always saved.
Now you are blatantly denying what the Bible clearly affirms:

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. (Ephesians 2:8-10)

But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men. (Titus 3:4-8)

ROMANS 8
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
31What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
 
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ScottA

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The "biblical doctrine of salvation" is not once saved, always saved.
And yet it is a fair and accurate biblical truth.

To be saved, one has "passed from death to life" and "and no one is able to snatch them out of The Father’s hand."

Moreover, having "been crucified with Christ; it is no longer he who lives, but Christ who lives in him"; and if Christ--it is not that person whom you are accusing of not being forever saved, but Christ.

Such an accusation and position is not becoming of one who would even know the truth.
 
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DoveSpirit05

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So you believe if I murder someone in the future, it is already forgiven and I don't need to repent?

No! repentence my friend is a change of heart or mind, it comes from the greek word metanoia it means 2 totally stop doing something, it doesn't mean 2 ask God for forgiveness. The forgiveness comes from God when u live righteously and stop sinning, dats how u show God dat ur repentful, and wen u do dat all sins past, present, future are forgotend God is ahead of time remember.

Once we sin wilfully he see's all sins again, but if we sin unwilfully we have an advocate with the father jesus Christ, its a little tricky 2 get ur head round at 1st, remember old.T where lambs were slained over and over again right!! wat wud be the point of sacrificing over and over again, makes sense 2 have one atoinment 4 all sins at once! dats wat Christ did 4 us!
 

GodsGrace

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Luke 8:13 is talking about someone with a mere mental assent to the tenets of the gospel....even a lukewarm, nominal, or shallow faith.

Whereas John 6:47 speaks of a faith that is unto righteousness (Romans 10:10); which is unto everlasting life.



Excellent.

Luke 8:13 Jesus said:
"Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away."

One must believe to be saved.
I think Jesus knew what BELIEVE means.
He said the word was received with JOY.
He said THEY BELIEVE FOR A WHILE.
He said they FELL AWAY.

Jesus confirmed that they BELIEVED FOR A WHILE...
and then FELL AWAY.

That's Jesus speaking...I'm not going to debate it...
one either understands it or chooses not to.



John 6:47 Jesus said
47“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life. "

Please notice that when BELIEF is spoken of, it is always in the present tense.
Yes....those WHO BELIEVE (present tense) HAVE ETERNAL LIFE.

No argument from me. As long as one believes...he is safe and has eternal life.
Eternal life is received at the end when we die...not before...for now it is only a promise...IF we continue to believe.


Romans 11:22
22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.


Romans 8:24-25
24For in hope we have been saved, but hope that is seen is not hope; for who hopes for what he already sees? 25But if we hope for what we do not see, with perseverance we wait eagerly for it.


Perhaps in your reply you could explain what Romans 11:22 means?
 

GodsGrace

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That would be ludicrous for any true believer. But if you wish to counter eternal security, you are more than welcome. Just remember that you may lead some astray because to have not properly comprehended the grace of God and the blood of Christ.
E, I believe it's the opposite.
Those that preach what you preach lead others astray....
have you never heard anyone say they could live as they want because they are saved?
There are many that believe this...
OSAS gives a false sense of security.

Perhaps you could explain away the following?


Romans 11:22
22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.


2 Peter 2:20-22
20For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. 21For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them. 22It has happened to them according to the true proverb, “A DOG RETURNS TO ITS OWN VOMIT,” and, “A sow, after washing, returnsto wallowing in the mire.”


Matthew 5:13
13“You are the salt of the earth; but if the salt has become tasteless, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled under foot by men."


1 Corinthians 9:27
27but I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached to others, I myself will no
t be disqualified.


And there are MANY MANY more.
Thanks.
 
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FollowHim

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And yet it is a fair and accurate biblical truth.

To be saved, one has "passed from death to life" and "and no one is able to snatch them out of The Father’s hand."

Moreover, having "been crucified with Christ; it is no longer he who lives, but Christ who lives in him"; and if Christ--it is not that person whom you are accusing of not being forever saved, but Christ.

Such an accusation and position is not becoming of one who would even know the truth.

We can have a miss-understanding of language.
Someone we love dearly we declare our love to them and our support.
We do not put in conditions or lay down how this love could be lost, but both parties know it could be.

Jesus lays our 7 parables in which believers are cast out.
Seed and the sower
Merciful king, unmerciful servant
The ten virgins
The wedding feast and the badly dressed guest
The abusing believer
The talents
Wise and foolish builders

If we are walking in Jesus, with a good conscience, a purified heart then non can snatch us out of His hand.
God bless you
 
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FollowHim

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This is entirely beside the point. On what exactly is salvation based? That is the real issue.
We have the OP essentially calling the biblical doctrine of salvation *garbage*.

What the op is referring to is the abuse of security in Christ.
Gods elect are grieved by sin and evil. But because some claim they are secure in OSAS,
they do not have regard to sin or their walk.

But in reality to walk like this demonstrates one has never known Jesus or has fallen away.
 

Phoneman777

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Christianity is about a walk...not a saved status. To BE Christian one needs to DO Christian. Otherwise we are just fooling ourselves.

If we endure till the end, we will be saved. Then, it is a question of the quality of that salvation.

We are in a race. Run to win! :)
I was thinking that exact thing when I was reading your post
 

Phoneman777

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What the op is referring to is the abuse of security in Christ.
Gods elect are grieved by sin and evil. But because some claim they are secure in OSAS,
they do not have regard to sin or their walk.

But in reality to walk like this demonstrates one has never known Jesus or has fallen away.
There are people who are fully converted Christians who will walk away from Christ and be found wanting on Judgment Day. We must choose to "abide in the Vine" daily.
 
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Phoneman777

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If we're saved permanently on earth after being born again then why does the bible say in phil 2:12 you have 2 work out ur salvation wiv fear and trembling. The race is not over yet theirs many hurdles 2 climb, many trials and tribulations you have to go through. eccl 3:12 1 peter 4:12.

Jesus said ull be persecuted 4 my names sake!! are u being persecuted? he said the world will hate you! are u being hated by the world? its not a picnic people so get this foolish Calvinism teaching out of ur heads. you have 2 cross the finish line 1st, its like walking a tight rope, jesus said matthew 10:22 those dat endure 2 the end will be truly saved not those dat are born again will be truly saved there and then.
We need to recognize that when the Bible refers to "sin" in the Christian, it is referring to iniquity: sins from which the Christian refuses to turn when the Holy Spirit reveals them.

You can be a heaven bound Christian for 50 years and then one day the Holy Spirit reveals something that you need to change in your life...working on Sabbath, whatever. If you keep doing it, you will eventually cease to hear the Holy Spirit's voice (burning out the conscience) and no longer feel the impression of the Holy Spirit to change (quenching of the Spirit) and you will be lost for all eternity.

Salvation is by grace through faith ALONE, and the EVIDENCE that one is in a saving relationship with the Savior is that he makes the Savior also his Lord...and faithfully obeys Him whatever He asks.
 

GodsGrace

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We need to recognize that when the Bible refers to "sin" in the Christian, it is referring to iniquity: sins from which the Christian refuses to turn when the Holy Spirit reveals them.

You can be a heaven bound Christian for 50 years and then one day the Holy Spirit reveals something that you need to change in your life...working on Sabbath, whatever. If you keep doing it, you will eventually cease to hear the Holy Spirit's voice (burning out the conscience) and no longer feel the impression of the Holy Spirit to change (quenching of the Spirit) and you will be lost for all eternity.

Salvation is by grace through faith ALONE, and the EVIDENCE that one is in a saving relationship with the Savior is that he makes the Savior also his Lord...and faithfully obeys Him whatever He asks.
Great post.
Yes...some make Jesus their Savior,,,but they do not make Him their Lord.

I don't believe we're saying that sin leads to being lost...
but ceasing to hear the voice of the Holy Spirit, as you've very well put it.