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Zachary

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I just get tired of people who know nothing of the power of the Spirit
asking dumb questions about works.
Jesus freed us from sin, not punishment, as some believe.
Yes, of course He did ... for all BACs!

But, all BACs have the free will to habitually sin, if they so choose.
BACs (even Spirit-filled ones) are not robots.

Being filled with the Spirit does not guarantee that
a person will not habitually sin, but it should, obviously.
Please do not make doctrines out of your own personal experiences.

Paul severely warned the Roman believers that ...
choosing to be slaves of sin results in (eternal) death (6:16).

He said they needed to choose to be slaves of obedience,
so God would continue to see them as being righteous. (6:16).
.
 
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Zachary

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If you keep doing it, you will eventually cease to hear the Holy Spirit's voice (burning out the conscience) and no longer feel the impression of the Holy Spirit to change (quenching of the Spirit) and you will be lost for all eternity.
"Those who are led by God's Spirit are sons of God." (Romans 8:14)
.
 
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ScottA

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We can have a miss-understanding of language.
Someone we love dearly we declare our love to them and our support.
We do not put in conditions or lay down how this love could be lost, but both parties know it could be.

Jesus lays our 7 parables in which believers are cast out.
Seed and the sower
Merciful king, unmerciful servant
The ten virgins
The wedding feast and the badly dressed guest
The abusing believer
The talents
Wise and foolish builders

If we are walking in Jesus, with a good conscience, a purified heart then non can snatch us out of His hand.
God bless you
That is as good an example of the major misunderstanding on this subject as any.

But you cannot use the words of Christ to the dead and then say it is about the living. He spoke of Israel (the dead in Christ), which would include the dead or unsaved of the gentiles--but not the living.

You have not rightly divided the word of God, but have spoke against Him as if to say: Yes but No, He is not the same yesterday, today, and forever.
 

justbyfaith

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No argument from me. As long as one believes...he is safe and has eternal life.

And the nature of eternal life is that it will last throughout eternity. Therefore the moment one truly believes with the heart, unto righteousness, they are eternally secure.

Eternal life is received at the end when we die...not before..

Actually, John 5:24 tells us that when we place our faith in the Father, after hearing Jesus' words, we have already passed from death into everlasting life.

Perhaps in your reply you could explain what Romans 11:22 means?

Sure. It means that if anyone has a living and saving faith, that this is a heart faith that is unto righteousness (Romans 10:10) and the enduring to the end (Hebrews 3:6, Hebrews 3:14, Matthew 10:22, Matthew 24:13)

have you never heard anyone say they could live as they want because they are saved?

The way you want to live, after you are saved, is different than the way you wanted to live before you got saved. You have been given a new heart and a new spirit, and have been made into a new creature (2 Corinthians 5:17). Dogs and swine like vomit and mud, sheep will run away from both of those things. Put a sheep in mud, it will run to the water. Put a pig in water and the palace, it will run to the mud first chance it gets. It is about whether you are regenerated or unregenerated in your nature.
 
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justbyfaith

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Now I will ask you, @GodsGrace:

In John 11:25-27, is the life and death being spoken of spiritual or physical?
 
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Helen

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"Those who are led by God's Spirit are sons of God." (Romans 8:14)
.

Oh whoops...I 'almost ' gave your verse a "like"...but then remembered your wise words - telling me that I do not agree with your posts or you with mine...silly me....I just caught myself in time. :D
 

Enoch111

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have you never heard anyone say they could live as they want because they are saved?
Anyone speaking like that is NOT saved and needs to repent. Only those who obey the Gospel as saved.

We need to focus on what God and Christ have accomplished for our eternal salvation. Does the Bible clearly say that eternal life is God's gift to the one who believes on the Lord Jesus Christ? Read John 3:16 and Acts 16:31.
 
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CharismaticLady

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And yet it is a fair and accurate biblical truth.

To be saved, one has "passed from death to life" and "and no one is able to snatch them out of The Father’s hand."

Moreover, having "been crucified with Christ; it is no longer he who lives, but Christ who lives in him"; and if Christ--it is not that person whom you are accusing of not being forever saved, but Christ.

Such an accusation and position is not becoming of one who would even know the truth.

I'm not saying that true Christians don't have assurances. What I'm saying is the HUMAN doctrine we called "once saved, always saved," taught in some denominations is declaring some to be saved who still walk in darkness. Not that they don't know about Jesus, but that they are taught sin cannot separate you from God. They are taught that keeping the commandments of Jesus is WORKS.

Here is the true assurance of a Christian, and the proof for you to know if you abide in Him is answered prayer.

1 John 3:18-24
18 My little children, let us not love in word or in tongue, but in deed and in truth. 19 And by this we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before Him... 21 Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence toward God. 22 And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight. 23 And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment. 24 Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

John 15:7
7 If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you.

Martin Luther taught the erroneous once saved, always saved of human reasoning, and this is what he said: "No sin can separate us from Him, even if we were to kill or commit adultery thousands of times each day."

cc: @Enoch111
 
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Zachary

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Martin Luther taught the erroneous once saved, always saved of human reasoning, and this is what he said: "No sin can separate us from Him, even if we were to kill or commit adultery thousands of times each day."
Gee, he was almost as messed up spiritually as some believers today!
Messed up ... because Satan has deceived the churches ...
who pass on the deceptions to the poor sheep.
It's mere child's play for Satan ... to deceive the churches.
Especially when some of its' leaders purposely go along with it.
Others are just ignorant of the truth ... brainwashed with false doctrines.
.
 
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CharismaticLady

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No! repentence my friend is a change of heart or mind, it comes from the greek word metanoia it means 2 totally stop doing something, it doesn't mean 2 ask God for forgiveness. The forgiveness comes from God when u live righteously and stop sinning, dats how u show God dat ur repentful, and wen u do dat all sins past, present, future are forgotend God is ahead of time remember.

Once we sin wilfully he see's all sins again, but if we sin unwilfully we have an advocate with the father jesus Christ, its a little tricky 2 get ur head round at 1st, remember old.T where lambs were slained over and over again right!! wat wud be the point of sacrificing over and over again, makes sense 2 have one atoinment 4 all sins at once! dats wat Christ did 4 us!

Then why say our future sins are forgiven, if you don't believe that yourself. Do you know that only our past sins are cleansed? Adding to scripture "present and future sin" are already forgiven such as future murder, is error. And even you know that.
 

CharismaticLady

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Please do not make doctrines out of your own personal experiences.

I'm not making new doctrines. My testimonies confirm that the promises in our covenant are true. Like answered prayer is proof you are abiding in Him. 1 John 3:18-24; John 15:7 If you don't like me pointing that assurance out to people, I would have to ask, is it because your own prayers are not answered, therefore you believe the scripture is false?
 

ScottA

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I'm not saying that true Christians don't have assurances. What I'm saying is the HUMAN doctrine we called "once saved, always saved," taught in some denominations is declaring some to be saved who still walk in darkness. Not that they don't know about Jesus, but that they are taught sin cannot separate you from God. They are taught that keeping the commandments of Jesus is WORKS.

Here is the true assurance of a Christian, and the proof for you to know if you abide in Him is answered prayer.

1 John 3:18-24
18 My little children, let us not love in word or in tongue, but in deed and in truth. 19 And by this we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before Him... 21 Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence toward God. 22 And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight. 23 And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment. 24 Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

John 15:7
7 If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you.

Martin Luther taught the erroneous once saved, always saved of human reasoning, and this is what he said: "No sin can separate us from Him, even if we were to kill or commit adultery thousands of times each day."

cc: @Enoch111
That is a different matter, and certainly the cause of much confusion regarding salvation.

But this matter of salvation should not be defined or explained with the preaching and words spoke to Israel, the dead in Christ. Which is not to say that some of that generation did not pass from death to life...some did, but few. Salvation was then given to the gentiles, and Jesus the Last of those born and saved under the Abrahamic Covenant, took Israel with Him. All that remains is salvation by rebirth of the spirit of God when Jesus knocks and one opens the door. As it is written "Many who are first will be last, and the last first", placing the gentiles before Israel, except that Israel is with Him: They proceed with Christ, but are last to receive the spirit Of God.

Thus, it is preached that we should rightly divide the word of truth, for much of it was written during that time on the cusp of "times" to both the dead and to the living. But these are the times of the gentiles and the New Covenant, not that of the Old Covenant and Israel. Each is different, and each word must be divide accordingly.

For lack of understanding, this is why some preach the one, and some the other in disagreement. Both words preached are true, but not true of all, and must therefore be rightly divided.
 

DoveSpirit05

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We need to recognize that when the Bible refers to "sin" in the Christian, it is referring to iniquity: sins from which the Christian refuses to turn when the Holy Spirit reveals them.

You can be a heaven bound Christian for 50 years and then one day the Holy Spirit reveals something that you need to change in your life...working on Sabbath, whatever. If you keep doing it, you will eventually cease to hear the Holy Spirit's voice (burning out the conscience) and no longer feel the impression of the Holy Spirit to change (quenching of the Spirit) and you will be lost for all eternity.

Salvation is by grace through faith ALONE, and the EVIDENCE that one is in a saving relationship with the Savior is that he makes the Savior also his Lord...and faithfully obeys Him whatever He asks.

good 2 know some people out their on the same page!! very acuratley put, the fact dat dis comment hasn't got more likes really puts into question peoples view on sin & salvation?
 
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FollowHim

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That is as good an example of the major misunderstanding on this subject as any.

But you cannot use the words of Christ to the dead and then say it is about the living. He spoke of Israel (the dead in Christ), which would include the dead or unsaved of the gentiles--but not the living.

You have not rightly divided the word of God, but have spoke against Him as if to say: Yes but No, He is not the same yesterday, today, and forever.

Hello Scott,
Certainly this is your interpretation, I and many others hold another view.
I acknowledge our differences, but I am not going to say you are wrong because I do not know you, and this is just
a short summary. So I fear when you, like many others who hold your view, want to judge us as talking against
Jesus. The reason this is a problem, because our hearts would be truly grieved in the Spirit, so unfortunately I doubt
deeply you are right. God bless you

Jesus is very specific. If you follow Him you build your house upon a rock, you love Him, you know Him, if you
do not, the opposite is true. So this is my criteria above any other.
 

ScottA

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Hello Scott,
Certainly this is your interpretation, I and many others hold another view.
I acknowledge our differences, but I am not going to say you are wrong because I do not know you, and this is just
a short summary. So I fear when you, like many others who hold your view, want to judge us as talking against
Jesus. The reason this is a problem, because our hearts would be truly grieved in the Spirit, so unfortunately I doubt
deeply you are right. God bless you

Jesus is very specific. If you follow Him you build your house upon a rock, you love Him, you know Him, if you
do not, the opposite is true. So this is my criteria above any other.
Thank you for your civility.

But it is not my practice to give my "interpretation." Nor are we afforded "another view", our answer is either "Yah or Nay" or we are spit out.

I would also caution your logical approach. The leaders in Israel were logical and even knowledgeable in the scriptures, but still did not understand and were not grieved in the face of Jesus, but offended. The gentile Christians now suffer the same kind of blindness as the day draws near. This is the "destruction" of the "wide" way foretold by Christ, to be overtaken by slumber and only know the truth in death.

But, No, rightly dividing the word of truth which I have expressed here, is not my interpretation...it is the truth from God rightly divided, as to what was spoken to the dead, as opposed to the living. This is the very reason that "rightly dividing" anything from God would seem wrong and offensive, but on the contrary, it is established.
 

FollowHim

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Thank you for your civility.

But it is not my practice to give my "interpretation." Nor are we afforded "another view", our answer is either "Yah or Nay" or we are spit out.

I would also caution your logical approach. The leaders in Israel were logical and even knowledgeable in the scriptures, but still did not understand and were not grieved in the face of Jesus, but offended. The gentile Christians now suffer the same kind of blindness as the day draws near. This is the "destruction" of the "wide" way foretold by Christ, to be overtaken by slumber and only know the truth in death.

But, No, rightly dividing the word of truth which I have expressed here, is not my interpretation...it is the truth from God rightly divided, as to what was spoken to the dead, as opposed to the living. This is the very reason that "rightly dividing" anything from God would seem wrong and offensive, but on the contrary, it is established.

Interesting your analogy to being spat out. This was aimed at the church of Laodicea.

14 "To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the ruler of God's creation.
15 I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either one or the other!
16 So, because you are lukewarm--neither hot nor cold--I am about to spit you out of my mouth.
17 You say, 'I am rich; I have acquired wealth and do not need a thing.' But you do not realize that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind and naked.
Rev 3

Jesus commands us to bear fruit or we will be rejected. We must follow, and obey to truly know His love or more precisely
to understand His love. And I am not speaking of a logical approach, but something that has been with me my whole
christian life. It is easy to start to consider a perfect spirit, eternal born into a believer when they come to faith, but this
has no foundation in scripture. Equally Gods work in us is demonstrated by the fruit of His work. Without this there is
nothing. It is so clear, unless we walk in His ways and let love rule our hearts we do not know Him and we are liars.
Again this is very clear. And on top of all this I know the sermon on the mount holds the key of life, as I have walked it
so the Lord has built life and love within me. So I have good reason to question your proposition and your assertion as if
it has value without establishing it by the word of God.

I have met many hard hearted folk, who openly declare their sinful lifestyle as if this is a badge of honour. They have no
shame and do not realise evil is something we repent of and turn away from. And those who do not are rejected from the
fellowship of believers. This is what we are commanded to do. And as His sheep we listen to Jesus and follow Him.
Our very lives depend upon this, and He is the foundation of all that we do. So I wonder where you come into this.
God bless you, may His love and grace rule in your heart every day, Amen.
 
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FollowHim

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Thank you for your civility.

But it is not my practice to give my "interpretation." Nor are we afforded "another view", our answer is either "Yah or Nay" or we are spit out.

I would also caution your logical approach. The leaders in Israel were logical and even knowledgeable in the scriptures, but still did not understand and were not grieved in the face of Jesus, but offended. The gentile Christians now suffer the same kind of blindness as the day draws near. This is the "destruction" of the "wide" way foretold by Christ, to be overtaken by slumber and only know the truth in death.

But, No, rightly dividing the word of truth which I have expressed here, is not my interpretation...it is the truth from God rightly divided, as to what was spoken to the dead, as opposed to the living. This is the very reason that "rightly dividing" anything from God would seem wrong and offensive, but on the contrary, it is established.

"it is not my practice to give my "interpretation.""

Everyone can speak with authority about their perspective, except if they claim it is the only perspective that is true, they ought
to be careful they are not considered pompous, conceited and simply a false prophet. If one is speaking from God, with His command
and revelation, but if it is interpretation and projection one ought to be very cautious.

I know many cults and brainwashed people who talk like this with the air of authority and determination, while in truth they have
none and are speaking merely from an emotional framework without support. It is like a psychopath who says because he has
no care for his victims, there is no guilt on his part for his actions. This analogy fits because evil behaviour is evil behaviour
punishable by God from eternity to eternity and He never changes. A magic ticket does not get you off free, unless one repents
and turns away from sin to walking in His ways and believes in the cross and Jesus for the forgiveness of sins. There is no other
way, the way of Jonah, the way of the prophets, the way of Paul and the apostles.

If one stands against all of this, one is no longer of the faith. And this is the essential problem. If one does not love the people
of God, one does not have a part of the Kingdom within. And with this level of rebellion, I wonder if there is ever a way back.
Those I have met who have walked this path with such certainty and condemnation do not return. God bless you.
 
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ScottA

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Interesting your analogy to being spat out. This was aimed at the church of Laodicea.

14 "To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the ruler of God's creation.
15 I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either one or the other!
16 So, because you are lukewarm--neither hot nor cold--I am about to spit you out of my mouth.
17 You say, 'I am rich; I have acquired wealth and do not need a thing.' But you do not realize that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind and naked.
Rev 3

Jesus commands us to bear fruit or we will be rejected. We must follow, and obey to truly know His love or more precisely
to understand His love. And I am not speaking of a logical approach, but something that has been with me my whole
christian life. It is easy to start to consider a perfect spirit, eternal born into a believer when they come to faith, but this
has no foundation in scripture. Equally Gods work in us is demonstrated by the fruit of His work. Without this there is
nothing. It is so clear, unless we walk in His ways and let love rule our hearts we do not know Him and we are liars.
Again this is very clear. And on top of all this I know the sermon on the mount holds the key of life, as I have walked it
so the Lord has built life and love within me. So I have good reason to question your proposition and your assertion as if
it has value without establishing it by the word of God.

I have met many hard hearted folk, who openly declare their sinful lifestyle as if this is a badge of honour. They have no
shame and do not realise evil is something we repent of and turn away from. And those who do not are rejected from the
fellowship of believers. This is what we are commanded to do. And as His sheep we listen to Jesus and follow Him.
Our very lives depend upon this, and He is the foundation of all that we do. So I wonder where you come into this.
God bless you, may His love and grace rule in your heart every day, Amen.
That all sounds wonderful and loving and gracious, but it glosses over and repeats the error of our forefathers in the faith.

Surely, you are kind and it is appreciated, but in all of that you said you "acknowledge the differences" and "don't want to say it is wrong"...but also that you "doubt deeply that I am right", and yet give no indication that you are treating things different as they are written, nor have you given any scripture to support you not doing so.