The Doctrine of Purgatory in Catholic Biblical Perspective

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Nondenom40

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Sorry but nowhere does God or anyone say just stick to what the bible actually says.
Ya, actually it does. Especially concerning the faith 'once for all delivered to the saints' Jude 3. The doctrines and dogmas of the rcc are found nowhere in the bible.

The Bible doesn't actually say that Jesus is God.
But perhaps you don't believe that.
Not sure what bible youre reading but ya, He does. And its clear enough that those who heard Him wanted to stone Him for claiming to be God!

The Bible doesn't actually say that that God is Trinity.
But perhaps you don't believe that.
Again, not sure what bible youre reading but the trinity, while the word isn't there the teaching certainly is. And that from Gen 1 - Rev 22. But thats not the first time i've heard from catholics that the bible doesn't describe His nature, attributes or character.
 

Ezra

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Ya, actually it does. Especially concerning the faith 'once for all delivered to the saints' Jude 3. The doctrines and dogmas of the rcc are found nowhere in the bible.

Not sure what bible youre reading but ya, He does. And its clear enough that those who heard Him wanted to stone Him for claiming to be God!


Again, not sure what bible youre reading but the trinity, while the word isn't there the teaching certainly is. And that from Gen 1 - Rev 22. But thats not the first time i've heard from catholics that the bible doesn't describe His nature, attributes or character.
i dont know where these people get there ideas
John 10:30

“I and my Father are one.” 31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
John 8:18-20 King James Version (KJV)
18 I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me.

19 Then said they unto him, Where is thy Father? Jesus answered, Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also.

20 These words spake Jesus in the treasury, as he taught in the temple: and no man laid hands on him; for his hour was not yet come.

sad the rcc is so full of deceit it is sad the biggest majority of the catholics only know what they are told.
 

Philip James

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Not sure what bible youre reading but ya, He does. And its clear enough that those who heard Him wanted to stone Him for claiming to be God!

So then, if Jesus is God, then Mary is the mother of God.

Likewise if Jesus is King, then Mary is the Queen mother...

1kings 2:19 gives a snapshot of the place of the Queen mother in the Davidic kingdom:

Then Bathsheba went to King Solomon to speak to him for Adonijah, and the king stood up to meet her and paid her homage. Then he sat down upon his throne, and a throne was provided for the king's mother, who sat at his right.

Peace!
 

Ezra

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Likewise if Jesus is King, then Mary is the Queen mother...
wrong wrong wrong Mary is the mother of Jesus Mary was favored among all women . beyond that is is flesh and blood . has no power to forgive sins . when shed died her body went back to the dust. her soul in heaven Christ dies and rose again . He is the way the truth the life . you are adding to the word of God
1kings 2:19 gives a snapshot of the place of the Queen mother in the Davidic kingdom:

Then Bathsheba went to King Solomon to speak to him for Adonijah, and the king stood up to meet her and paid her homage. Then he sat down upon his throne, and a throne was provided for the king's mother, who sat at his right.
paid respect yes this is a physical kingdom
John 18:36 King James Version (KJV)
36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.
 

Nondenom40

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So then, if Jesus is God, then Mary is the mother of God.
Said the bible nowhere.

Likewise if Jesus is King, then Mary is the Queen mother...
Said the bible nowhere.

1kings 2:19 gives a snapshot of the place of the Queen mother in the Davidic kingdom:

Then Bathsheba went to King Solomon to speak to him for Adonijah, and the king stood up to meet her and paid her homage. Then he sat down upon his throne, and a throne was provided for the king's mother, who sat at his right.

Peace!
K. Now just give us the equally clear verse where Jesus pulls up a throne for mary. We'll wait.
 

Philip James

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Said the bible nowhere.


Said the bible nowhere.

K. Now just give us the equally clear verse where Jesus pulls up a throne for mary. We'll wait.

Hello nondenom,

Which of these statements are you disagreeing with:

Jesus is God

Jesus is King

Mary is the mother of Jesus

??

Peace!
 

jshiii

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Chapter and verse please.

He will only find it in the Apocrypha, which is not included in the English Bible. A great reference for History though. Catholics include the Apocrypha. It's not recognized as divine scripture.
 
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jshiii

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Please initially respond to these 13 question on the basis of your best instincts rather than from what you perceive the Bible to teach. Subsequently, I will address all 13 questions from a biblical perspective and then you will be encouraged to respond to the cited biblical texts. The questions are relevant to the debate over universal salvation, but this thread is only intended to apply them to the Catholic doctrine of Purgatory and, more broadly, to the question of ultimate release from Hell. And no, I'm not a Catholic; I'm an Evangelical.

13 PHILOSOPHICAL QUESTIONS ABOUT THE POST-MORTEM STATE OF THE DAMMED:

(1) At the moment of postmortem survival, do we retain the same basic moral character that we developed in this life?
(2) Would many carnal Christians be unable to live in a sin-free heavenly realm?
(3) Does Jesus' principle that like attracts like in the afterlife make many professing Christians unsuitable company for the saints in Heaven?
(4) Might not Hell be a realm of both reformative justice and retributive justice?
(5) Because of their secular upbringing or negative life experience, millions of people have heard the Gospel with no conviction that it is true. Is it just to send them to eternal conscious torment because their spiritual intuition is fatally flawed?
(6) Can anyone do enough in our brief sojourn on Earth to merit eternal conscious torment with no chance of postmortem redemption?
(7) If there are multiple Heavens and Hells with different levels, might not continual progress be made from one level to another?
(8) How does the concept of pure unconditional divine love apply to those in eternal conscious postmortem torment?
(9) If denizens of Hell sincerely wanted to repent, rise into God's loving presence, and be spiritually transformed, would a loving God deny them that opportunity?
(10) What keeps sinners in Hell--God, Satan, or the sinners themselves?
(11) Shall the will of an omnipotent God to save everyone be eternally thwarted?
(12) Is it reasonable to assume that no soul retrievals from Hell would ever be attempted?
(13) Could Heaven truly be a realm of bliss for the redeemed if they knew that close family members and other loved ones were confined to eternal conscious torment?



You are referring to the Apocrypha? It is a great reference for History, nothing more. It's not included in divine scripture. In other words, it's not inspired by God.
 

Nondenom40

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Hello nondenom,

Which of these statements are you disagreeing with:

Jesus is God

Jesus is King

Mary is the mother of Jesus

??

Peace!
I see you're able to post a clear verse regarding Solomon and Bathsheba. Where is the equally clear verses regarding Mary? In Catholic eyes she's greater than little ole Bathsheba isn't she? Why does Bathsheba get the ink where Mary doesn't?
 

Ezra

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Is Jesus not King?
did i not say he was he is king of kings and Lord of Lords that does not make mary a spiritual queen .it only makes her the mother of Jesus . no where in scripture does it say pray to mary or worship mary
 

Ezra

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I see you're able to post a clear verse regarding Solomon and Bathsheba. Where is the equally clear verses regarding Mary? In Catholic eyes she's greater than little ole Bathsheba isn't she? Why does Bathsheba get the ink where Mary doesn't?
THERE is none
 

Philip James

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did i not say he was he is king of kings and Lord of Lords that does not make mary a spiritual queen .it only makes her the mother of Jesus .

If Mary is the mother of Jesus and Jesus is King, then Mary is the Queen mother.
She holds the same place in Jesus' kingdom that Bathsheba held in Soloman's.

Peace!
 

jshiii

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(13) Could Heaven truly be a realm of bliss for the redeemed if they knew that close family members and other loved ones were confined to eternal conscious torment?[/QUOTE]

I can answer 13. I have thought about this many times when it comes to my wife. I love my wife! With that said, I love Jesus eternally more!! My wife and I have had discussions about this and she fully understands she is in 2nd place. I cannot answer for her when she gets to judgement. However, she knows I'm a very loving earthly partner. We agree that after this life everyone is for themselves. We lift each other up all the time here on Earth. We pray for each other, we take care of each other, we love, an earthly love, to each. But we both know this is serious business and we know the war is against Satan!

Uhhh! HEAVEN WILL BE WAY MORE THAN "BLISS"! I will get all my Pet Dogs back! And instead of barking, I will actually get to question them about tearing up my best shoes.....trust me they will answer :) So EXCITED to finally be able to communicate with them in God's love!!! Dogs do go to Heaven and God loves animals....he has all kinds of animals around, his throne, worshipping him, you can see it in scripture ;)
 
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Ezra

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If Mary is the mother of Jesus and Jesus is King, then Mary is the Queen mother.
She holds the same place in Jesus' kingdom that Bathsheba held in Soloman's.

Peace!
okkkkkkkkkkk tell ya what you just keep holding on to that.. that is carnal teaching ..there is nothing in the Bible that even comes close to saying that. feel free to keep thinking your right .. it has no effect on me who knows maybe you think there is a man on the moon turning th light on /off o_O
 

Philip James

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okkkkkkkkkkk tell ya what you just keep holding on to that.. that is carnal teaching ..there is nothing in the Bible that even comes close to saying that. feel free to keep thinking your right .. it has no effect on me who knows maybe you think there is a man on the moon turning th light on /off o_O

Why do you deny the obvious?

Is Jesus not King?
Is Mary not His mother?

What keeps you from acknowledging their relationship?

Peace!
 

epostle

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Catholics believe that this verse is an indication of the sinlessness of Mary – itself the kernel of the more developed doctrine of the Immaculate Conception. But that is not apparent at first glance (especially if the verse is translated “highly favored” – which does not bring to mind sinlessness in present-day language).

Protestants are hostile to the notions of Mary’s freedom from actual sin and her Immaculate Conception (in which God freed her from original sin from the moment of her conception) because they feel that this makes her a sort of goddess and improperly set apart from the rest of humanity. They do not believe that it was fitting for God to set her apart in such a manner, even for the purpose of being the Mother of Jesus Christ, and don’t see that this is “fitting” or “appropriate” (as Catholics do).

The great Baptist Greek scholar A.T. Robertson exhibits a Protestant perspective, but is objective and fair-minded, in commenting on this verse as follows:

“Highly favoured” (kecharitomene). Perfect passive participle of charitoo and means endowed with grace (charis), enriched with grace as in Ephesians. 1:6, . . . The Vulgate gratiae plena “is right, if it means ‘full of grace which thou hast received‘; wrong, if it means ‘full of grace which thou hast to bestow‘” (Plummer).
Kecharitomene has to do with God’s grace, as it is derived from the Greek root, charis (literally, “grace”). Thus, in the KJV, charis is translated “grace” 129 out of the 150 times that it appears. Greek scholar Marvin Vincent noted that even Wycliffe and Tyndale (no enthusiastic supporters of the Catholic Church) both rendered kecharitomene in Luke 1:28 as “full of grace” and that the literal meaning was “endued with grace” (Vincent, I, 259).

Likewise, well-known Protestant linguist W.E. Vine, defines it as “to endue with Divine favour or grace” (Vine, II, 171). All these men (except Wycliffe, who probably would have been, had he lived in the 16th century or after it) are Protestants, and so cannot be accused of Catholic translation bias. Even a severe critic of Catholicism like James White can’t avoid the fact that kecharitomene (however translated) cannot be divorced from the notion of grace, and stated that the term referred to “divine favor, that is, God’s grace” (White, 201).

Of course, Catholics agree that Mary has received grace. This is assumed in the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception: it was a grace from God which could not possibly have had anything to do with Mary’s personal merit, since it was granted by God at the moment of her conception, to preserve her from original sin (as appropriate for the one who would bear God Incarnate in her very body).

The Catholic argument hinges upon the meaning of kecharitomene. For Mary this signifies a state granted to her, in which she enjoys an extraordinary fullness of grace. Charis often refers to a power or ability which God grants in order to overcome sin (and this is how we interpret Luke 1:28). This sense is a biblical one, as Greek scholar Gerhard Kittel points out:

Grace is the basis of justification and is also manifested in it ([Rom.] 5:20-21). Hence grace is in some sense a state (5:2), although one is always called into it (Gal. 1:6), and it is always a gift on which one has no claim. Grace is sufficient (1 Cor. 1:29) . . . The work of grace in overcoming sin displays its power (Rom. 5:20-21) . . .(Kittel, 1304-1305)
Protestant linguist W.E. Vine concurs that charis can mean “a state of grace, e.g., Rom. 5:2; 1 Pet. 5:12; 2 Pet. 3:18” (Vine, II, 170). One can construct a strong biblical argument from analogy, for Mary’s sinlessness. For St. Paul, grace (charis) is the antithesis and “conqueror” of sin (emphases added in the following verses):
Romans 6:14

We are saved by grace, and grace alone:

Ephesians 2:8-10

Thus, the biblical argument outlined above proceeds as follows:

1. Grace saves us.

2. Grace gives us the power to be holy and righteous and without sin.

Therefore, for a person to be full of grace is both to be saved and to be completely, exceptionally holy. It’s a “zero-sum game”: the more grace one has, the less sin. One might look at grace as water, and sin as the air in an empty glass (us). When you pour in the water (grace), the sin (air) is displaced. A full glass of water, therefore, contains no air (see also, similar zero-sum game concepts in 1 John 1:7, 9; 3:6, 9; 5:18). To be full of grace is to be devoid of sin. Thus we might re-apply the above two propositions:

1. To be full of the grace that saves is surely to be saved.

2. To be full of the grace that gives us the power to be holy, righteous, and without sin is to be fully without sin, by that same grace.

A deductive, biblical argument for the Immaculate Conception, with premises derived directly from Scripture, might look like this:

1. To be full of the grace that saves is surely to be saved.

2. To be full of the grace that gives us the power to be holy, righteous, and without sin is to be fully without sin, by that same grace.

A deductive, biblical argument for the Immaculate Conception, with premises derived directly from Scripture, might look like this:

1. The Bible teaches that we are saved by God’s grace.

2. To be “full of” God’s grace, then, is to be saved.

3. Therefore, Mary is saved (Luke 1:28).

4. The Bible teaches that we need God’s grace to live a holy life, free from sin.

5. To be “full of” God’s grace is thus to be so holy that one is sinless.

6. Therefore, Mary is holy and sinless.

7. The essence of the Immaculate Conception is sinlessness.

8. Therefore, the Immaculate Conception, in its essence, can be directly deduced from Scripture.

The only way out of the logic would be to deny one of the two premises, and hold either that grace does not save or that grace is not that power which enables one to be sinless and holy. It is highly unlikely that any Evangelical Protestant would take such a position, so the argument is a very strong one, because it proceeds upon their own premises.

In this fashion, the essence of the Immaculate Conception (i.e., the sinlessness of Mary) is proven from biblical principles and doctrines accepted by every orthodox Protestant. Certainly all mainstream Christians agree that grace is required both for salvation and to overcome sin. So in a sense my argument is only one of degree, deduced (almost by common sense, I would say) from notions that all Christians hold in common.

One possible quibble might be about when God applied this grace to Mary. We know (from Luke 1:28) that she had it as a young woman, at the Annunciation. Catholics believe that God gave her the grace at her conception so that she might avoid the original sin that she otherwise would have inherited, being human. Therefore, by God’s preventive grace, she was saved from falling into the pit of sin, rather than rescued after she had fallen in.

All of this follows straightforwardly from Luke 1:28 and the (primarily Pauline) exegesis of charis elsewhere in the New Testament. It would be strange for a Protestant to underplay grace, when they are known for their constant emphasis on grace alone for salvation. (We Catholics fully agree with that; we merely deny the tenet of “faith alone,” as contrary to the clear teaching of St. James and St. Paul.)

Protestants keep objecting that these Catholic beliefs are speculative; that is, that they go far beyond the biblical evidence. But once one delves deeply enough into Scripture and the meanings of the words of Scripture, they are not that speculative at all. Rather, it looks much more like Protestant theology has selectively trumpeted the power of grace when it applies to all the rest of us Christian believers, but downplayed it when it applies to the Blessed Virgin Mary.

What we have, then, is not so much a matter of Catholics reading into Scripture, as Protestants, in effect, reading certain passages out of Scripture altogether (that is, ignoring their strong implications), because they do not fit in with their preconceived notions (yet another instance of my general theme).

Luke 1:28 ("Full of Grace") and the Immaculate Conception
 
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Ezra

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What keeps you from acknowledging their relationship?
LOOK i am only going to say this once
Is Jesus not King?
Is Mary not His mother?

What keeps you from acknowledging their relationship?
i dont deny the physical relation ship Jesus is the only way truth life no man comes to the father but by him.. him alone mary had to be born again saved just like anyone one else .her corpse when she died stayed in the tomb /grave. she has NO spiritual authority .. this is the last time to explain this.. you need to read the Bible it will show you your error . other than that i am through beating a dead horse and trying to explain to you while your like a mule looking at a new gate .. search the scriptures John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. NOT MARY you are being carnal minded
 

Philip James

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i dont deny the physical relation ship

Well I don't know about you, but my relationship with my mother is much more than just a physical connection...

And as Jesus loves perfectly , He also has perfect filial love for His mother.

There is no need to be afraid of Mary, she always points to her son and says 'do whatever He tells you.

However one might want to refrain from disrespecting or denigrating her, so as not to offend her son.

Peace be with you!
 
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