David Wilkerson's "The Vision"

[marks]

We're in the Tribulation. Maybe it's time to be serious?

Bobby Jo

Well you're sure a wet blanket!

 

[marks]

@Waiting on him I guess you don't see the church in Matthew 24, either...

If Jesus were prophesying regarding the gentile church in Matthew 24, that would make God disengenuous, considering that God was still offering Israel their kingdom in Acts 2. Or is it 3? I forget. I think 2. Anyway.

For Jesus to be prophesying in Matthew 24 regarding a gentile church which would be established only after Israel had rejected the Gospel would put the lie to an offer to give them their kingdom as promised if they as a nation repented.

Much love!

 

[Waiting on him]

@Waiting on him I guess you don't see the church in Matthew 24, either...

I see this as a message to Messianic Jews in that era that Jesus knew were about to be overthrown by Rome, but the self centered read ever bit of scripture to be referring too their generation.

 

[farouk]

I see this as a message to Messianic Jews in that era that Jesus knew were about to be overthrown by Rome, but the self centered read ever bit of scripture to be referring too their generation.

@Waiting on him I guess with its strong Jewish background I would see the passage as relating to the tribulation period after the church has gone...

 

[Hidden In Him]

What year has this not been prophesied to happen at least once? Most years have at least 2 or 3 "highly regarded" prophecies of Economic Crash next month . . . in 6 months . . . next year. Every single times they've failed (Oh, except in the prophecies for 2008 ding ding ding! Got it! Oh, wait, not the Big Crash) all have failed.

Well yes, and that's what I've been telling you. Men in the flesh get ahold of genuine prophesy and then start getting people all hopped up like it is coming next year. They do it for sensationalism so they can attract attention, receive donations to "get the word out," and then pocket a lot of it in the name of "serving Christ." I remember that guy that was promoting the sale of gold awhile back. Total fraud. What was his name now. Big top selling author... turned out he and his whole family were ripping people off.

Anyway, Yes! And you will continue to see people get ahead of things until the end. Timing is crucial, and you can usually spot a fraud by how quickly they say things are going to happen (not offense to anyone reading this). Like the rapture, for instance. I'm planning on doing a video eventually on how many just in this century alone have predicted it was coming soon, only to be proven quacks. Happens all the time.

I've seen the same thing with World War, or even limited nuclear attack. I have a friend who has lettered the side of his car to say that Jesus is returning in 2021. He had a vision. His life now is drive that Corvette all over the nation to proclaim the good news.

Oh, God. Well, at least he's doing it in a nice car. Back during the Harold Camping debacle they were painting old beat up jalopies even. I bet those made good cars to use in a demolition derby afterwards.

I've seen prophecy fulfilled, and false prophecies galore. Failed and false prophecies that their believers hang onto, trying to say, but look, this part happened, and that part could be happening over there, and trying to make it still be true.

Yep. Part of Satan's work to make even the real thing look false.

Prophecies that don't happen are false. Prophecies that don't happen the way the prophet says are false.

Ok, now here you get into some tricky ground. I don't accept the common assumption here, because many prophesies are conditional on if the subjects in them repent or not. Jonah was sent to prophecy to Niniveh that they were going to be destroyed. But then they went and repented, which really ticked Jonah off, LoL. And as a result of their repentance the prophecy was suspended (Niniveh eventually was destroyed, but because of their repentance the Lord delayed it for something like a hundred some odd years. I'd have to go back and check).

I really think we need to approach these things not with the supposition that every word we hear is true, given that so many have been false.

Certainly. That's the believer's responsibility.

Reading through back pages of the Elijah List, for example.

Never heard of it.

An easy example is the prophecy from Kim Clement in 2004

Ick. Never liked him. Thought he was a fraud, and couldn't keep the TV on for very long when he was on the screen.

How off can a prophet be? Do they really have to 100% accurate? Is 80% enough? 20%?

Very tough question. Paul told the Thessalonians not to despise prophesyings, but to test all things and hold fast to that which was true. It suggests that not only can the church receive prophecy from demonic spirits but (in my opinion anyway) also ones that arise from the flesh. Moving in the Spirit and hearing the voice of the Spirit accurately is a tough thing. He whispers.

Let me give you a quick example. I was in a Hispanic service a few years ago and there was a prophet visiting. This guy was reading everyone's mail, right down to their last names, and events that had gone on in their lives recently, and things they were thinking about and had been through that No One knew about because they hadn't told anyone. But I was hoping for a word from the Lord on something which is why I went there.

Well, he was calling out names of people, and when they raised their hand he would start prophesying over them. But at one point he stopped, looked as though he was having a hard time pronouncing, and said the name "Costas." No one answered. He tried again, and no one answered so he moved on. But after the service someone came up to me and said, "I think he was trying to reach you." My last name is Coultes, a derivation of the English name Coulter/Coulters. But this was an entirely Hispanic gathering of about 100 or so people. So he likely didn't hear what the Spirit was saying to him quite accurately enough, and assumed it must be a Hispanic name. So he guessed and guessed wrong.

Was he a false prophet? No. If anything, I was the idiot who didn't sense when my name was being called. But when you get in circles where the gift of prophecy is actually being used, things are not always as cut and dried as "If the guy is 100% accurate, he is a prophet of God. If not, take him out back and burn him at the stake." LoL.

Forgive the typos. I'm writing my tail off today.

 

[marks]

Ok, now here you get into some tricky ground. I don't accept the common assumption here, because many prophesies are conditional on if the subjects in them repent or not.

I'd say that nearly all modern day publicly given prophecies are couched in nebulous and deniable terms, so they can be reworked when the prediction proves false. Or that later detail can be filled in to make it match something that happens.

And ones that are specific, like Clement's, are wrong.

Hm.

I feel a new thread coming on.

Much love!

 

[marks]

But when you get in circles where the gift of prophecy is actually being used, things are not always as cut and dried as "If the guy is 100% accurate, he is a prophet of God. If not, take him out back and burn him at the stake." LoL.

This is a really interesting part of the discussion. I happen to think this is actually where modern day prophecy is happening, in our personal meetings.

Much love!

 

[Bobby Jo]

... And ones that are specific, like Clement's, are wrong. ...

Maybe people are looking in the wrong places. Remember the book "88 Reasons Why 1988" where the author looked at all the world events, but not at what Scripture provided? It's a common problem in "christianity". They're ignorant of the things that matter, and confused by the distractions in the world.

Seems to me that if they understood what the Scriptures say, they'd be closer to identifying those contributions from the world. But that takes too much effort. It's much easier to throw darts than study.


... and we're some 18 months into the 42 month (NOT seven-year) tribulation.
Bobby Jo

 

[Keraz]

Greetings, Keraz. I'm aware of your posts and your general position, but we strongly disagree on the timing of things. I'm not sure if you still believe and teach that His return is coming in 12 years, but I very firmly believe His return is nowhere near that close. I fully expect to die and go on to be with the Lord well before most (if not all) of end-time Biblical prophesy is fulfilled.

But blessings in Christ to you just the same.
HiH

My belief of a very soon to happen end times, is supported by scripture and by current events.
Bible prophecy says there will be 2000 years from when Jesus first came until His Second Advent. Hosea 6:2, Luke 13:32 That means His Return is only 12-15 years away from now.

The confrontation between Israel and the surrounding Islamic peoples has lasted for 72 years. How much longer can this situation go on for? Iran WILL use the nuke missiles they have prepared. When they do try; THEN the Lord will arise and destroy all His enemies. Jeremiah 49:35-37, Psalms 7:6-16, Isaiah 33:10-12, Isaiah 66L15-17, Revelation 6:12-17

 

[Waiting on him]

Well yes, and that's what I've been telling you. Men in the flesh get ahold of genuine prophesy and then start getting people all hopped up like it is coming next year. They do it for sensationalism so they can attract attention, receive donations to "get the word out," and then pocket a lot of it in the name of "serving Christ." I remember that guy that was promoting the sale of gold awhile back. Total fraud. What was his name now. Big top selling author... turned out he and his whole family were ripping people off.

Anyway, Yes! And you will continue to see people get ahead of things until the end. Timing is crucial, and you can usually spot a fraud by how quickly they say things are going to happen (not offense to anyone reading this). Like the rapture, for instance. I'm planning on doing a video eventually on how many just in this century alone have predicted it was coming soon, only to be proven quacks. Happens all the time.


Oh, God. Well, at least he's doing it in a nice car. Back during the Harold Camping debacle they were painting old beat up jalopies even. I bet those made good cars to use in a demolition derby afterwards.


Yep. Part of Satan's work to make even the real thing look false.


Ok, now here you get into some tricky ground. I don't accept the common assumption here, because many prophesies are conditional on if the subjects in them repent or not. Jonah was sent to prophecy to Niniveh that they were going to be destroyed. But then they went and repented, which really ticked Jonah off, LoL. And as a result of their repentance the prophecy was suspended (Niniveh eventually was destroyed, but because of their repentance the Lord delayed it for something like a hundred some odd years. I'd have to go back and check).


Certainly. That's the believer's responsibility.


Never heard of it.


Ick. Never liked him. Thought he was a fraud, and couldn't keep the TV on for very long when he was on the screen.


Very tough question. Paul told the Thessalonians not to despise prophesyings, but to test all things and hold fast to that which was true. It suggests that not only can the church receive prophecy from demonic spirits but (in my opinion anyway) also ones that arise from the flesh. Moving in the Spirit and hearing the voice of the Spirit accurately is a tough thing. He whispers.

Let me give you a quick example. I was in a Hispanic service a few years ago and there was a prophet visiting. This guy was reading everyone's mail, right down to their last names, and events that had gone on in their lives recently, and things they were thinking about and had been through that No One knew about because they hadn't told anyone. But I was hoping for a word from the Lord on something which is why I went there.

Well, he was calling out names of people, and when they raised their hand he would start prophesying over them. But at one point he stopped, looked as though he was having a hard time pronouncing, and said the name "Costas." No one answered. He tried again, and no one answered so he moved on. But after the service someone came up to me and said, "I think he was trying to reach you." My last name is Coultes, a derivation of the English name Coulter/Coulters. But this was an entirely Hispanic gathering of about 100 or so people. So he likely didn't hear what the Spirit was saying to him quite accurately enough, and assumed it must be a Hispanic name. So he guessed and guessed wrong.

Was he a false prophet? No. If anything, I was the idiot who didn't sense when my name was being called. But when you get in circles where the gift of prophecy is actually being used, things are not always as cut and dried as "If the guy is 100% accurate, he is a prophet of God. If not, take him out back and burn him at the stake." LoL.

Forgive the typos. I'm writing my tail off today.

Have you ever heard the term familiar spirit?

 

[Keraz]

... and we're some 18 months into the 42 month (NOT seven-year) tribulation.

Rubbish!
We will surely know when the actual Great Tribulation starts. A time such as has never been before and will never be again.

 

[farouk]

Maybe people are looking in the wrong places. Remember the book "88 Reasons Why 1988" where the author looked at all the world events, but not at what Scripture provided? It's a common problem in "christianity". They're ignorant of the things that matter, and confused by the distractions in the world.

Seems to me that if they understood what the Scriptures say, they'd be closer to identifying those contributions from the world. But that takes too much effort. It's much easier to throw darts than study.


... and we're some 18 months into the 42 month (NOT seven-year) tribulation.
Bobby Jo

Some said he remembered Christians saying that Mussolini was the man of sin...and then when they hanged him and his mistress from a lamp post in Milan, the prophetic enthusiasts didn't then say, Hey ppl, we were wrong...

Good to stick to what the Scripture says, rather than speculate...

 

[marks]

Maybe people are looking in the wrong places. Remember the book "88 Reasons Why 1988" where the author looked at all the world events, but not at what Scripture provided? It's a common problem in "christianity". They're ignorant of the things that matter, and confused by the distractions in the world.

I agree with this.

 

[Hidden In Him]

@Waiting on him I guess you don't see the church in Matthew 24, either...

Yes. I see the church in Matthew 24 : ) If you don't, you come up with all sorts of strange interpretations, and have verses giving you pretty big problems. For instance, in v.14 He says, "and this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world, for a witness unto all nations." Now the word translated nations there is simply translated Gentiles much of the time in the NT because it means the same thing both ways. And this means there will still be Gentiles having the gospel preached to them. If they are not part of the church, it makes it hard to define what they are a part of.

 

[Waiting on him]

I agree with this.

Hard to argue.

 

[Hidden In Him]

I'd say that nearly all modern day publicly given prophecies are couched in nebulous and deniable terms

Many are, yes, but not all. There are entire sections of the church (the faith crowd among them, I hate to say) who operate in nebulous prophesies a lot. My wife and I used to joke about 2015 being "the year of the double anointing," and 2012 being "the year of the bountiful blessing" and all that tripe. I hate to make fun of it so I just stopped watching, but that sort of thing just asks for it.

And ones that are specific, like Clement's, are wrong.

Again, not always. There are things in the OP vision for example that are very specific. Give it time.

 

[marks]

Again, not always. There are things in the OP vision for example that are very specific. Give it time.

Like I said, you need to read the original, and accept what this vision describes, and go from there.

Is there something in particular you feel is that specific, that we can put it to the test?

 

[marks]

What do you do when prophecy is unable to be tested?

"If you have enough faith . . . this will be the year you reach $10,000,000 in the bank!"

 

[Hidden In Him]

This is a really interesting part of the discussion. I happen to think this is actually where modern day prophecy is happening, in our personal meetings.

Much love!

The most powerful prophecies are coming through visions and dreams, and are being published precisely because of their importance to the end-time church. That's my opinion, of course, but I'm telling you from experience art studying this stuff for a long time. The in-house prophesying that is going on (the real stuff anyway) is more geared towards the individual, not the church as a whole. It's in the major published visions that you are dealing with "what the Spirit is saying to the churches."

 

[farouk]

Yes. I see the church in Matthew 24 : ) If you don't, you come up with all sorts of strange interpretations, and have verses giving you pretty big problems. For instance, in v.14 He says, "and this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world, for a witness unto all nations." Now the word translated nations there is simply translated Gentiles much of the time in the NT because it means the same thing both ways. And this means there will still be Gentiles having the gospel preached to them. If they are not part of the church, it makes it hard to define what they are a part of.

I don't see the great tribulation in Matthew 24 as the same as the tribulation principle in John 16.33. We are looking - through tribulation - for the Lord's coming for the church; we are not looking for cataclysmic events to happen first, which are earthly events relating to Israel and judgment on earth. This how I see it...dispensationally.