Universalism: Where Do People Get The Idea

[VictoryinJesus]

In fact, the insinuation is that in both cases the one making the request knew their persecutors would likely NOT be forgiven, so they were seeking to intercede on their behalf. What these prayers do is demonstrate the heart of love even towards one's enemies. But the final decision rests with God,

first, thank you for the response. I know I can be difficult. One reason I come here, not the only reason, but to test if I have beliefs that don’t hold up and need to come down. So far, not many claiming the other has given much to consider.

This above, we agree on.

When seen in that light, the prayers of "Father, forgive them" and "Lord, lay not this sin to their charge" become essentially prayers for their repentance, and for their eyes to be opened to see what they are doing from God's perspective.

point has always been God will give His Son Jesus Christ and Stephen also As a child of God what they ask for. We get caught up on Gods coming to redeem (repay) the Punishment of the curse but seldom think on pure things of His coming to redeem, recompense, reward the blessings of His Spirit with His people. We speak of evil works being repaid yet never see the Works of the Spirit are greater Than the curse. Not even sure what transpires in the following passage(maybe you know?) but 5 says (for Me) how God is a God of the impossible.
Deuteronomy 23:4-5 Because they met you not with bread and with water in the way, when ye came forth out of Egypt; and because they hired against thee Balaam the son of Beor of Pethor of Mesopotamia, to curse thee. [5] Nevertheless the Lord thy God would not hearken unto Balaam; but the Lord thy God turned the curse into a blessing unto thee, because the Lord thy God loved thee.
To me it says more in ...when you came out of the world they met you not with bread ...foreshadowing this bread: John 6:51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

and they gave no water in the way...foreshadowing the Living water where Christ stood and cried it was offered to all who thirst.

Then “they hired against thee Balaam ...to curse thee.”
^we don’t want to hire Balaam to curse. (Have to consider WHO stood in “the way” of Balaam.)
NEVERTHELESS the Lord thy God would not hear men unto Balaam; but the Lord thy God turned the curse into a blessing unto thee, because the Lord thy God loved thee.

To me says when they persecute you and curse you ...the curse is nothing of value and goes nowhere (John 9:33), (Acts 5:38-39)but the Lord thy God turned the curse into a blessing unto thee, because the Lord thy God loved thee.

May sound crazy but Christ did warn...you gave Me no bread...you gave Me no water to drink. If you do it not to the least, you do it not unto Me.

Nehemiah 13:2 Because they met not the children of Israel with bread and with water, but hired Balaam against them, that he should curse them: howbeit our God turned the curse into a blessing.

 

[brakelite]

None of what you’ stated enters in.
In other words only what perseveres will enter in only what is Christ.

Agreed. Then you cannot be described as universalist... At least not my understanding of the term.

 

[brakelite]

Yes, but I didn't take you as one who ascribed to sinless perfection. Are you asking the question from that perspective, or am I misreading you?

Hope you're having a good evening, btw, and good hearing from you : )

A very warm night. Hope all is well with you... Happy New year.
What do you mean by sinless perfection?

 

[Helen]

According to their works.

.....which is L O V E ...for if we truly love as Jesus commanded all the commands since Eden we will fulfill ...

" This is the work of God that you believe on Him whom He sent"

He sent His Love...wrapped up in Jesus Christ for us...and expects us to do likewise ... = works , fruit, His nature...etc

Yes? No?

 

[VictoryinJesus]

what would* you give on the topic then from the OT? Obviously it matters to you so ...

no input? Matthew 5:10 Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

James 3:16-18 For where envying and strife is, there is confusion and every evil work. [17] But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy. [18] And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace.

What is His righteousness? Doesn’t He tell it in Matthew 5:44-48
[44] But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; [45] That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. [46] For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? [47] And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others ? do not even the publicans so? [48] Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

What is God’s perfection if not that He loves not only those who love Him, but also those who do not. What does God do any more than man if He only loves those who love Him. God goes beyond...say it is not so??

 

[Harvest 1874]

I'd like to see some scriptures here from the people who say repeatedly that God's Love will never overtake His Justice.
From the NT please.

There are no direct scriptural statements saying such, but nevertheless it is still true.

Justice is the foundation of God's government, and his love could not operate in violation of his justice.

“Righteousness and justice are the foundation of your throne; Mercy and truth go before your face.” (Psa 89:14)

“Undoubtedly there is no lesson that the people of God need to learn more than this particular one of the relationship of justice to love, in order to know how to exercise these qualities as God exercises them, and yet with some variations; for He has some rights which we do not possess. We see that God’s Love operated in the very beginning, when He created His Son to be His Logos. His Love was afterwards seen in His creation of the angels and men, in His own image. Then we see that the fall of our race brought into operation Divine Justice; for it was Justice which decreed that man, because of his disobedience, should not live.

“Dying, thou shalt die,” was the fiat of Divine Justice. (Gen. 2:17) When Justice decreed that death must result from transgression, Divine Love agreed that the sentence was altogether proper, not only because it is right for God to be just and in harmony with His own Law, but also because it would not be good for man to live everlastingly in a fallen condition.

If God had permitted man to live on (eternally) in imperfection, we can scarcely imagine the tremendous power he would have had by this time. As it is, we have witness throughout history that some in our race, in but the few short years we now possess, had through such qualities of mind and character gained mastery over their fellow man (for example Nero, Po Pot, Stalin, Hitler); and were such allowed to live on indefinitely in sin, they would undoubtedly bring all others into captivity to themselves.

Except man should exercise the attributes of his character in harmony with the Divine character, he should not be permitted to live, because of the great injury which he would do to others. Thus, in the Divine arrangement, we see Love agreeing with Justice that sinful man should die.” (3H764 edited)

God’s Law was originally given to Adam; God’s Justice inflicted the death penalty for the breaking of that Law. He would not set aside His Law, His Justice, but He would bring in a blessing through the Lord Jesus Christ. Love gains this victory over Justice, not by violating Justice, but by sacrificing self. So it is for us to sacrifice ourselves in the interest of the Lord, the Truth and the brethren; and by thus doing, we are really conserving our own best interests and are growing in grace, in knowledge and in character-likeness to our God.

Now through the work of Christ Jesus our Lord, he has transformed plain justice, the foundation of God’s throne, into the throne of grace (Heb 4:16), into a source of help and encouragement, sympathy and comfort. No wonder the Holy Spirit is called “the strengthener together, the comforter.” Even now almighty love and power have gone forth, commissioned to give every assistance to the saints of God, even as later in the next age they will go forth for the world of mankind.

I would suggest you consider reading our blog post entitled “Why Evil Was Permitted and Related Topics” especially Part 4 as it pertains to this subject more directly.

 

[Hidden In Him]

We speak of evil works being repaid yet never see the Works of the Spirit are greater Than the curse. Not even sure what transpires in the following passage(maybe you know?) but 5 says (for Me) how God is a God of the impossible.
Deuteronomy 23:4-5 Because they met you not with bread and with water in the way, when ye came forth out of Egypt; and because they hired against thee Balaam the son of Beor of Pethor of Mesopotamia, to curse thee. [5] Nevertheless the Lord thy God would not hearken unto Balaam; but the Lord thy God turned the curse into a blessing unto thee, because the Lord thy God loved thee.

To me it says more in ...when you came out of the world they met you not with bread ...foreshadowing this bread: John 6:51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

and they gave no water in the way...foreshadowing the Living water where Christ stood and cried it was offered to all who thirst.

Then “they hired against thee Balaam ...to curse thee.”
^we don’t want to hire Balaam to curse. (Have to consider WHO stood in “the way” of Balaam.)
NEVERTHELESS the Lord thy God would not hear men unto Balaam; but the Lord thy God turned the curse into a blessing unto thee, because the Lord thy God loved thee.

To me says when they persecute you and curse you ...the curse is nothing of value and goes nowhere (John 9:33), (Acts 5:38-39)but the Lord thy God turned the curse into a blessing unto thee, because the Lord thy God loved thee.

May sound crazy but Christ did warn...you gave Me no bread...you gave Me no water to drink. If you do it not to the least, you do it not unto Me.

Nehemiah 13:2 Because they met not the children of Israel with bread and with water, but hired Balaam against them, that he should curse them: howbeit our God turned the curse into a blessing.

Ok, I might be a little confused myself here. Let me quote your Deuteronomy passage with a few more verses surrounding it, and you tell me if I am understanding what you are asking. Speaking to the Israelites, God said:

3 An Ammonite or Moabite shall not enter into the congregation of the Lord; even to their tenth generation shall they not enter into the congregation of the Lord for ever: 4 Because they met you not with bread and with water in the way, when ye came forth out of Egypt; and because they hired against thee Balaam the son of Beor of Pethor of Mesopotamia, to curse thee. 5 Nevertheless the Lord thy God would not hearken unto Balaam; but the Lord thy God turned the curse into a blessing unto thee, because the Lord thy God loved thee. 6 Thou shalt not seek their peace nor their prosperity all thy days for ever.

Now the Ammonites and Moabites were those who did not meet the Israelites with bread and water, and who hired Balaam against them, hence as a judgment from God the Israelites were not to allow them into the congregation. But in v.5 He reminds the Israelites that He did not hearken unto Balaam but instead turned his curse into a blessing unto Israel, because He loved them. But the unrighteous Ammonites and Moabites remained unrighteous in God's eyes, and the Israelites were not to seek their peace or prosperity ever...

Ask me again what you were trying to ask in light of this understanding. I'm trying to follow you.

 

[Hidden In Him]

A very warm night. Hope all is well with you... Happy New year.
What do you mean by sinless perfection?

Entering into a state where the believer never sins any more, in word, thought, or deed.

 

[Helen]

There are no direct scriptural statements saying such, but nevertheless it is still true.

Thank you for answering and the laugh...so I guess anyone can apply this to anything then...

 

[Harvest 1874]

Thank you for the laugh...so we can apply this to anything then...

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If you chose to remain in darkness upon the subject, the last laugh, may very well be on you my dear sister.

 

[Giuliano]

KJV Matthew 13
The Parable of the Tares
24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

The householder played no part in sowing tares, not was it his will that the field should yield a mixed crop. But when sin came, he had a plan to defeat it.
Yes, ultimately Satan will be forced to accept responsibility for the rebellion, but indeed we have a choice as to whether we join him or not. There are deeper reasons why God did not immediately put down the rebel permanently right at the beginning.
Any rebellion had political overtones... With the lies, innuendos, and deceptions that come with any attempt at a political takeover. Satan's entire treasonous insurrection in heaven was based on a lie that God's government was somehow deficient. That the laws by which the kingdom of God operated were in some ways unfair, unjust, and either impossible to obey, or unnecessary. I hear that from Christians today. What Satan started was a mind game that is still having a ripple effect throughout the world. If God had squashed Satan then, such an act would not have removed the ideas that Satan had ingested the angelic realm with, but contrariwise would have confirmed the idea of tyranny... Unjust... Arbitrary. That's why we have spent 6000 years on this planet watching and living through as witnesses God permitting Satan to prove whether or not his form of government... Self will and doing what is right in our own eyes... Is better. When the disastrous prophecies of revelation dealing with Antichrist and the evil and violence that ensures from a global government, Babylon, persecuting the few remaining people of God keeping His commandments, and the resulting chaos and turmoil in the world, then will the world finally see the true Christ formed in the lives of Gods children. Then all will be without excuse.

I find it interesting that it says an enemy was able to do it while "the men slept."

 

[brakelite]

Entering into a state where the believer never sins any more, in word, thought, or deed.

And do you believe that we can do all things through Christ Jesus our Lord?

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Ok, I might be a little confused myself here. Let me quote your Deuteronomy passage with a few more verses surrounding it, and you tell me if I am understanding what you are asking. Speaking to the Israelites, God said:

3 An Ammonite or Moabite shall not enter into the congregation of the Lord; even to their tenth generation shall they not enter into the congregation of the Lord for ever: 4 Because they met you not with bread and with water in the way, when ye came forth out of Egypt; and because they hired against thee Balaam the son of Beor of Pethor of Mesopotamia, to curse thee. 5 Nevertheless the Lord thy God would not hearken unto Balaam; but the Lord thy God turned the curse into a blessing unto thee, because the Lord thy God loved thee. 6 Thou shalt not seek their peace nor their prosperity all thy days for ever.

Now the Ammonites and Moabites were those who did not meet the Israelites with bread and water, and who hired Balaam against them, hence as a judgment from God the Israelites were not allow them into the congregation. But in v.5 He reminds the Israelites that He did not hearken unto Balaam but instead turned his curse into a blessing unto Israel, because He loved them. But the unrighteous Ammonites and Moabites remained unrighteous in God's eyes, and the Israelites were not to seek their peace or prosperity ever...

Ask me again what you were trying to ask in light of this understanding. I'm trying to follow you.

Was hoping a connection was seen that the angel of the Lord stood in the way of Balaam. the warning to not go in the way of Balaam?? Basically, unless I’ve misunderstood here in this topic is “you people are stupid for buying this.” Not necessarily from you. wondering at the no encouragement that it IS God’s will none perish. And the children are supposed to be of the blessing and not the cursing. Instead, a tearing down of Hope in what God said is Not His will. Even a tearing down of HIs commands of do as He says, not as men say. if the overall opinion is they do perish which all flesh does ... still I’m struggling to understand the opposition here to keep others from Hope of the reconciliation of all things and whatever God decides that looks like. The point is being missed claiming to keep the word while speaking curses out of the side of the mouth. Brothers saying, it is stupid to be not willing any perish but let us discuss how they do perish. For what purpose is acknowledgment of...All those who are damned and invoicing there is no hope for them? To be right? He said the world will Hate you for My namesake...bless and love those who hate you. Why is that disputed?

Psalm 118:25-26 Save now, I beseech thee, O Lord : O Lord, I beseech thee, send now prosperity. [26] Blessed be he that cometh in the name of the Lord : we have blessed you out of the house of the Lord.

1 Peter 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

 

[brakelite]

Thank you for answering and the laugh...so I guess anyone can apply this to anything then...

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Well, no, but scripture reveals that what harvest said is true, that man could not be permitted to live eternally in sin because of the immense damage he could do. Remember what the Lord said after the flood...
KJV Genesis 11
6 And the Lord said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.
7 Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another’s speech.

Imagine sinners in heaven.... Oh, no need to imagine... Lucifer was in heaven and got the boot. Why would God expel Lucifer and let in his children?

 

[VictoryinJesus]

now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.

But the love of Christ constrains us ...


2 Corinthians 5:14-18 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: [15] And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again. [16] Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more. [17] Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. [18] And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Why would God expel Lucifer and let in his children?

God can make that which is crooked straight? Ecclesiastes 1:14-15 I have seen all the works that are done under the sun; and, behold, all is vanity and vexation of spirit. [15] That which is crooked cannot be made straight: and that which is wanting cannot be numbered.

Mark 15:25-28 And it was the third hour, and they crucified him. [26] And the superscription of his accusation was written over, THE KING OF THE JEWS. [27] And with him they crucify two thieves; the one on his right hand, and the other on his left. [28] And the scripture was fulfilled, which saith, And he was numbered with the transgressors.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Was hoping a connection was seen that the angel of the Lord stood in the way of Balaam. the warning to not go in the way of Balaam?? Basically, unless I’ve misunderstood here in this topic is “you people are stupid for buying this.” Not necessarily from you. wondering at the no encouragement that it IS God’s will none perish. And the children are supposed to be of the blessing and not the cursing. Instead, a tearing down of Hope in what God said is Not His will. Even a tearing down of HIs commands of do as He says, not as men say. if the overall opinion is they do perish which all flesh does ... still I’m struggling to understand the opposition here to keep others from Hope of the reconciliation of all things and whatever God decides that looks like. The point is being missed claiming to keep the word while speaking curses out of the side of the mouth. Brothers saying, it is stupid to be not willing any perish but let us discuss how they do perish. For what purpose is acknowledgment of...All those who are damned and invoicing there is no hope for them?

I see. Well the answer depends upon what position is being presented. If the idea is that many will go to Hell but eventually be redeemed into Heaven, that would receive a particular refutation. If the idea was that no one goes to Hell but all will go to Heaven, that is answered by another. Certainly there is no debating that He would that all men be saved. That's scripture. But while He desires it, He also makes it clear in numerous places that not all will.

 

[Hidden In Him]

And do you believe that we can do all things through Christ Jesus our Lord?

Yes, but the question becomes one of "To what extent and for how long a time can a Christian continually abide in Him through whom all things can be done? Can the believer enter into a place where they never cease to abide in Him in this life?"

I do contend it is theoretically possible, but it would take a closer walk with God than the apostles Paul or Peter demonstrated in this life. Not that that's impossible either, but we are talking here about dedication to God on a level that exceeds that of the New Testament saints (barring possibly the Apostle John).

 

[VictoryinJesus]

But while He desires it, He also makes it clear in numerous places that not all will.

I get it. Another member here on another thread said Christ knew the majority would not choose Him. Value what that member says ...although we all assume we are not in that majority that will not but of the select few. told my husband today if anyone deserves hell it is me. He could testify to it as I can get down right ugly when my emotions rule. I need mercy...no different than anyone else.

 

[brakelite]

We have the grandest display ever of Gods love satisfying His justice in Father forgive them they know not what they do

Then the alleged body of Christ says, “ if they reject our message, off to hell with them, they deserve it?

Yet while He God is being rejected displays mercy.

There comes a point though that people become irredeemable. They spurn every offer of mercy and grace given. Their death or destruction comes from being separated from God, who is their only source of life. They cannot abide His presence which to them becomes a consuming fire. If Jesus came in His glorified divine state none could have survived his presence either... That veil of humanity allowed Him to walk among us which reveals how much God desires our fellowship and the lengths He is willing to go to in order to accomplish it... Make Me a sanctuary that I may dwell among them, became...a body hast thou prepared for Me. God is merciful indeed and we will be spending eternity discovering it's real depths, but sadly there are too many parables and warnings in scripture to doubt that a great many people, who of their own fault, choose not to avail themselves of the grace offered.