Universalism: Where Do People Get The Idea

[reformed1689]

where do they come from???????????

The whole of Scripture. And to clarify my post, I mean I dismiss people who say we are to ONLY look at the NT. They have no idea what they are talking about and ignore the New Testament and what it says about the OT as well.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

The whole of Scripture. And to clarify my post, I mean I dismiss people who say we are to ONLY look at the NT. They have no idea what they are talking about and ignore the New Testament and what it says about the OT as well.

what would* you give on the topic then from the OT? Obviously it matters to you so ...

 

[brakelite]

Again I agree, it was all there...that is why Jesus opened the OT up to them on the road to Emeaus ... but as I just mention above ...The Apostles doctrine is what is taught in the NT .....Given by Jesus Himself.

none of this changes that fact the no one yet has quoted a verse which says - "God's Justice will never be overruled by His Love"...which if you check many threads, is so often quoted as a verse.
Hense I asked the question of two of them already...

I realise that my response to this has been a long time coming, and the tail end of the thread as it stands may have drifted into another subject, as threads often do, nevertheless, your question is appropriate, and needs to be answered.
When is justice not overruled by love?
Again, as a previous post mentioned, these attributes are not mutually exclusive. One does not negate the effects of the other... David said under inspiration...
KJV Psalms 85
8 I will hear what God the LORD will speak: for he will speak peace unto his people, and to his saints: but let them not turn again to folly.
9 Surely his salvation is nigh them that fear him; that glory may dwell in our land.
10 Mercy and truth are met together; righteousness and peace have kissed each other.
Ellen White said, with regards that text.Psalm 85:10
God's love has been expressed in His justice no less than in His mercy. Justice is the foundation of His throne, and the fruit of His love. It had been Satan's purpose to divorce mercy from truth and justice. He sought to prove that the righteousness of God's law is an enemy to peace. But Christ shows that in God's plan they are indissolubly joined together; the one cannot exist without the other.{DA 762}
Prior to this, she said...
But even as a sinner, man was in a different position from that of Satan.Lucifer in heaven had sinned in the light of God’s glory. To him as to no other created being was given a revelation of God’s love.Understanding the character of God, knowing His goodness, Satan chose to follow his own selfish, independent will. This choice was final. There was no more that God could do to save him. But man was deceived; his mind was darkened by Satan’s sophistry. The height and depth of the love of God he did not know. For him there was hope in a knowledge of God’s love. By beholding His character he might be drawn back to God. DA 761.5
Through Jesus, God’s mercy was manifested to men; but mercy does not set aside justice. The law reveals the attributes of God’s character, and not a jot or tittle of it could be changed to meet man in his fallen condition. God did not change His law, but He sacrificed Himself, in Christ, for man’s redemption. “God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto Himself.” 2 Corinthians 5:19. DA 762.1
The law requires righteousness,—a righteous life, a perfect character; and this man has not to give. He cannot meet the claims of God’s holy law. But Christ, coming to the earth as man, lived a holy life, and developed a perfect character. These He offers as a free gift to all who will receive them. His life stands for the life of men. Thus they have remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God. More than this, Christ imbues men with the attributes of God. He builds up the human character after the similitude of the divine character, a goodly fabric of spiritual strength and beauty. Thus the very righteousness of the law is fulfilled in the believer in Christ. God can “be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.” Romans 3:26

So what becomes of those who having apprehended Christ in the cross, the greatest manifestation of God character of love, yet reject the free gift despite the revelation of love... Are they not in an even greater position than Satan to understand the nature of God's love having Calvary as irrefutable evidence?

 

[brakelite]

It's clear that Jesus died for the sins of the whole world...and not just for believers. Jesus never advocates for a salvation by belief system.

I agree, Christ died for every man. But should a man reject Christ and the gospel, does he not take back upon himself the condemnation?

 

[ReChoired]

Universalism: Where Do People Get The Idea ...
Why do some people think that everyone goes to Heaven in the end?

It (the idea of universalism) comes from sin and the selfish heart of the unconverted. The sinner desires to remain in their sin, and so it is easier for such to teach that they have no repenting to do, nor need conversion, nor need to do anything, and God shall 'save' (altered definition) them. It's all a lie.

 

[mjrhealth]

What I asked was simple...people have more than once in this thread ( forgotten who, and I don't want to re-read the whole thread looking for the quotes)

They have said...and maybe you did too...and not only in this thread , but from time to time.. " God's love will never be greater than His justice ."

I do not yet see it all as clearly as you and others seem to see.

Yes I agree, God is Holy, He is Just, and angry with sin, He hates it...
But He is also Merciful, Forgiving and God is Love.

So how can anyone claim that His Justice is stronger than His Love?
I asked for NT verses where these people pull that belief from , that's all.

I've often wondered how God can demand love from us for our enemies ..., and forgiveness from us...etc...yet you all say that He will not do the same re love and forgiveness.

That is what I was saying...explained as well as I can.

I also wonder why it is that whenever 'the restoration of all things' is mention people get so angry in their posts against it... I have hardly met anyone who will just 'discuss' it calmly.
Thats all.

Nice post Helen,

ye out God is quiet difficult to understand, and so many things I do not understand about Him, But even was as Jesus put it,

Luk 14:28 For which of you, intending to build a tower, sitteth not down first, and counteth the cost, whether he have sufficient to finish it?
Luk 14:29 Lest haply, after he hath laid the foundation, and is not able to finish it, all that behold it begin to mock him,
Luk 14:30 Saying, This man began to build, and was not able to finish.
Luk 14:31 Or what king, going to make war against another king, sitteth not down first, and consulteth whether he be able with ten thousand to meet him that cometh against him with twenty thousand?

Can you imagine God, starting all this than, not knowing he could finish it, how can he lay these rules upon man than not do them Himself, that is Hypocrisy and God is no Hypocrit, for whatever God had to do upon this earth, the flood, Sodom, etc was done so that this course would be run to its completeness, a bit like having to stop a runner from taking a shortcut to win a race, except the prize is the hearts and souls of men. I would so love for Him to teach me more, but I will always have it in the back of my mind the day I was discussing something with Him ,and He tells me to, stop trying to figure Him out. I guess that was good advice it does your head in, His ways are not our ways, comes to mind... But this I know, I believe we are going to see and be surprised as to what happens at the end, far to many people trying to lay down the rules for God, Pia and I have discussed this many times, with no answer, There is so much we dont know, so we wait to see..

 

[Giuliano]

It (the idea of universalism) comes from sin and the selfish heart of the unconverted. The sinner desires to remain in their sin, and so it is easier for such to teach that they have no repenting to do, nor need conversion, nor need to do anything, and God shall 'save' (altered definition) them. It's all a lie.

I wouldn't say that. I think most sinners do not see how they are creating their own misery, nor do they see how they have become willing slaves to their worst instincts. People often complain about how bad the world is but then act themselves in ways that make the world worse. It's crazy. It is as if there is veil over their eyes. People sin not knowing what they do. I believe that veil will be removed during the Thousand Year Reign. All men will finally see the truth.

 

[mjrhealth]

Well, since the Old Covenant is null and void, where do you think Christian doctrines come from -- where do you think the doctrine of Christ comes from, except from the NT? So we should dismiss your false conclusion.

And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers. (Acts 2:42)

The apostles' doctrine came directly from the Lord Jesus Christ. Not only did He open all the OT Scriptures to them after His resurrection, but He taught them for 40 days after that. Plus Paul received his doctrines directly from Christ after his conversion.

Even to this day, those who have ears to hear.

 

[brakelite]

When He comes He will come looking for a reflection of Himself...

According to their works.

 

[brakelite]

So now you have Satan as more powerful than God. God is not willing that any should perish; but Satan is going to make sure most people do perish. Satan is not that powerful, Brakelite.

So now you are blaming Satan for your sin? " It wasn't me Dad, he made me do it".

You surely must agree that God designed this world. Surely you also believe God is not lacking in Power or Wisdom. Therefore if people perish, it would have to be because He allows it or doesn't know how to prevent it.

Like I said, God has made every provision for everyone's salvation. All He asks of us is to believe His word. It is your choice whether to believe He can accomplish what He had promised, or not. If not, you will be like national Israel who couldn't enter Canaan... Why? Because if unbelief. And right now the church is right where they were... On the border.

As for destroying humanity and starting again, that's saying God could become so frustrated by how He created things to begin with, He wrecks His creation blaming it. Ha, ha, that would be like a father having a child who didn't cater to his every whim looking at the child and saying, "I don't like the way you turned out. I think I'll kill you and try again." You can't be serious, Brakelite.[/QUOTE
Of course not, but God is God and He had that prerogative, but like I said,. But love chose otherwise.

 

[Giuliano]

So now you are blaming Satan for your sin? " It wasn't me Dad, he made me do it".

I would say you were the one putting all the blame on Satan when you wrote: "An enemy has done this.... God, with this one statement, denies all responsibility for sin in the world." Don't try to put those words in my mouth. God gives us choices. God's plan allows for us to sin if that is our choice.

Like I said, God has made every provision for everyone's salvation. All He asks of us is to believe His word. It is your choice whether to believe He can accomplish what He had promised, or not. If not, you will be like national Israel who couldn't enter Canaan... Why? Because if unbelief. And right now the church is right where they were... On the border.

So can you explain how you believe people who never heard of Jesus or even of the God of Israel may be saved?

Of course not, but God is God and He had that prerogative, but like I said,. But love chose otherwise.

This is typical thinking, so I can't take a too severe attitude; but really it's like saying God has the option of lying if He wanted to. I think God's Love makes some options impossible. It may look as if God threatened to wipe out Israel; but I think He wanted Moses to do the good deed of interceding for them and knew he would.

 

[Episkopos]

I agree, Christ died for every man. But should a man reject Christ and the gospel, does he not take back upon himself the condemnation?

Rejecting Christ is something very specific. There are literally billions of people who are not Christian but who've not rejected Christ either. Our job is to present Christ in such a way so as they encounter Him. THEN...if they reject Him...that's for condemnation.

But with the sorry excuse for a witness we so often project, is it any wonder that people remain in the dark concerning Christ?

We are to be the light of the world. As such when men reject us, they reject Christ who sent us.

But I don't believe our witness is that pure.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Read all of your response. Agree with the above only that born of God is anointed by the Head which is Christ. Doesn’t that make the blessing more than mere words?

There is a distinction between Christ truly speaking through a believer through the leading of the Holy Spirit and a superficial believer who is not even hearing the leading of the Spirit and is just speaking in the flesh. In the case of the latter, no. It's just words.

Luke 23:34-35 Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots. [35] And the people stood beholding. And the rulers also with them derided him, saying, He saved others; let him save himself, if he be Christ, the chosen of God.

Acts 7:59-60 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit. [60] And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.

the above is more of what I think of when God says to bless those who persecute you. So I asked...will God Honour the blessing?

If you'll notice, in both cases the decision is left up to God. There are places where the disciples were told that whomsoever's sins they forgave would be forgiven, but not in these cases, which means there was uncertainty involved and the final decision would rest with God. In fact, the insinuation is that in both cases the one making the request knew their persecutors would likely NOT be forgiven, so they were seeking to intercede on their behalf. What these prayers do is demonstrate the heart of love even towards one's enemies. But the final decision rests with God, and likely involves some form of repentance on the part of those who were persecuting the faithful, such as happened with Paul.

When seen in that light, the prayers of "Father, forgive them" and "Lord, lay not this sin to their charge" become essentially prayers for their repentance, and for their eyes to be opened to see what they are doing from God's perspective.

 

[brakelite]

Hey, Victory! Hope you are having a good day/evening. Enjoying some football and thought I'd check in.

In answer to your question, no He will not. The key statement is v.48, "Therefore be ye perfect as your Heavenly Father is perfect." In other words, if you would wish to become adopted sons of God and enter into His inheritance with Christ, you must love even your enemies. Not that "perfect" here means "sinless." The word carries the sense of completeness, and here means that you conform yourself to the Father's image where your conduct and behavior is concerned, thereby not simply loving those who love you but loving even those who abuse and persecute you.

Why, you think what I'm saying cancels out the effects of being born of the Spirit through incorruptible seed? (I'm guessing that's what you might be driving at, but forgive me if I'm wrong). If so, James said that we are to let the word grow within us, for it has the power (i.e. is "able to") save our souls (James 1:21). The implication here is that if we do not allow the word to continue growing within us, it will die away and we will die away with it. To enter into life, we must allow the word to grow within us until it produces out from us 30, 60 and 100 fold (Mark 4:13-20).

Isn't love in its fullest ,eg loving your enemies as Christ loved us when we were yet sinners, fulfilling the law and therefore must be sinless?

 

[brakelite]

Rejecting Christ is something very specific. There are literally billions of people who are not Christian but who've not rejected Christ either. Our job is to present Christ in such a way so as they encounter Him. THEN...if they reject Him...that's for condemnation.

But with the sorry excuse for a witness we so often project, is it any wonder that people remain in the dark concerning Christ?

We are to be the light of the world. As such when men reject us, they reject Christ who sent us.

But I don't believe our witness is that pure.

I would suggest even that Christ's coming is delayed for that very reason.

 

[Ezra]

The whole of Scripture. And to clarify my post, I mean I dismiss people who say we are to ONLY look at the NT. They have no idea what they are talking about and ignore the New Testament and what it says about the OT as well.

as you say n.t confirms the o.t it takes both

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Rejecting Christ is something very specific. There are literally billions of people who are not Christian but who've not rejected Christ either.

And to me it seems there are Christians who say they don't reject Him but they reject His words! And some seem to reject His Spirit too, by what they say!

 

[Waiting on him]

We have the grandest display ever of Gods love satisfying His justice in Father forgive them they know not what they do

Then the alleged body of Christ says, “ if they reject our message, off to hell with them, they deserve it?

Yet while He God is being rejected displays mercy.

 

[brakelite]

It is definitely literal, and until One accepts this, One will never understand why all will be saved in the end.

From my reading of scripture it appears that if the wicked are saved at all, it is from their own miserable existence... In mercy God destroys them.

 

[Waiting on him]

From my reading of scripture it appears that if the wicked are saved at all, it is from their own miserable existence... In mercy God destroys them.

Off to hell with them, it would be merciful!!!