Do we even have the correct definition of "saved?"

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Enow

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i think "lord" and "shepherd" are distinctly different offices? but again ty

Your reference of Lord Lord and not doing the things He says is how by trusting Him as my Good Shepherd, the emphasis on how I follow Him is on Him.
 

Enow

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shouldnt it be the other way around?

and you say "faith" as a noun but isnt that really a belief?

Is not faith a fruit of the Spirit? So that faith is from Him as we apply that faith by trusting Him to do it. That is where our confidence should rest in.
 

bbyrd009

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So that faith is from Him as we apply that faith by trusting Him to do it. That is where our confidence should rest in.
work to make your calling and election sure
for all must come before the judgement seat to be judged for their works, whether evil or good

kinda suggest otherwise?
 

Enow

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the kingdom of heaven is within you
The Revelation of Christ is a "vision!"

Since God is with us for how the kingdom of Heaven is within you, should tell us how being with God in that Kingdom of Heaven up there will be like.
 

ScottA

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You are drawing the wrong conclusion. The thief died that day. His race was finished. And the human race of Jesus was finished...that's why He said...It is finished.

But you are taking this dogmatically thinking of a weird transactional salvation whereby one positive word eradicates all future life. But that is false. We remain in play so we are free to go either way...to do well or badly...right up to the end of our lives. THEN comes judgment. The churches have failed miserably with the false idea of salvation being a onetime only decision. We make thousands of decisions each day...and for all these we will be judged. No one is going to be judged on one decision...but every word and thought and deed.
No...you have assumed that men are alive in the flesh.

But those who actually come to Christ and join Him in actual life, come to the knowledge that they were dead and are dead, and having released death in the world, have gained life in God. Which life is eternal, the same yesterday, today, and forever. That "race" that is run, is death. That is the sentence which we were sentenced to run. But when one passes from death to life, "It is finished." For death is unto death, but life is unto God.
 
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Enow

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work to make your calling and election sure
for all must come before the judgement seat to be judged for their works, whether evil or good

kinda suggest otherwise?

Well sure. There are Christ the firstfruits at the pre great tribulation event for abiding in Him to be received as vessels unto honor in His House

Then there are those saved saints who did not depart from iniquity that get disqualified for how and where the vessels unto dishonor comes from that are still in His House, as they get left behind to die but to be resurrected after the great tribulation as "they that be Christ's at His coming ".

Those left behind are still saved but all those works that deny Him on that foundation will be burned away so they can be received by Him later on. See? The foundation that remains is OSAS, but running that race is for being that vessel unto honor in His House but we still have to look to the author & finisher of our faith to help us run that race for that high prize of our calling; not for salvation, but to be received as that vessel unto honor in His House. See 2 Timothy 2:19-21
 

BreadOfLife

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That is a good description of your error. Thanks for describing it.

Yes indeed, "most of us don't drop dead after coming to Christ." They should, because that is what is called for, but most don't.

Which is to say, most are not "born again of the spirit of God" when they begin to follow Christ...and so they go away from time to time flirting with life and death, and some return and some not. But that is not salvation. Nor is that the plan or prescription of God. That is at best, good intentions, but without understanding.

But, thanks again for explaining yourself.
Actually - I was explaining Paul's journey - and John's and Peter's and James's, etc.
They ALL struggled with sin AFTER being born again in Christ.

The main difference between them and YOU - other than your incredible arrogance - is that they admitted it.
 

Renniks

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well, not of any future in a literal heaven that may only be attained after literal death, certainly not; No one has ever gone up to heaven, There is only One Immortal, you and your sons will be here with me, etc, and if you note the original at those vv for "believe" it is pistis which is much better expressed "have faith" only that makes "believers" uncomfortable so they have virtually all been changed to "belief" or "believe" now, in most versions. so imo no on two counts
There's a ton of verses about us having the assurance of eternal life, which is assurance of heaven. Where do you think believers who have died are?
 

bbyrd009

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i mean isnt the default Christian definition of "saved" now "going to an afterlife in literal heaven, as opposed to those who have gone to hell, after i have died?"
 

Taken

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i

many will cry "LordLord"

Yes. There will be those on the outside of the door saying Lord, Lord...

The reason they are on the outside, is because they did not the WILL of God.

They "hoped" they would have entry by crediting themselves with WORKS by "USING" the Power of the Lords NAME, but never accepted His Gifts of Forgiveness, Salvation and Quickened spirit.

Matt 7:
[21] Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
[22] Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

Glory to God,
Taken
 

Episkopos

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No...you have assumed that men are alive in the flesh.

But those who actually come to Christ and join Him in actual life, come to the knowledge that they were dead and are dead, and having released death in the world, have gained life in God. Which life is eternal, the same yesterday, today, and forever. That "race" that is run, is death. That is the sentence which we were sentenced to run. But when one passes from death to life, "It is finished." For death is unto death, but life is unto God.


You have the finish line in the wrong place. But your explanation is really out there...a la Gnosticism. When the bible says...know no man according to the flesh...that isn't because the person is only Spirit. So you have gone down a rabbit trail and a doozie there bro!
 
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Episkopos

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The point is that we should indeed die, and it should be finished when we come to Christ, that we should also be born again of the spirit of God, having put to death the flesh, as crucified and risen with Christ (past tense). And those who do not, are not even His.

He came and died for many who do not receive Him. And when I say "for", I mean instead of, not needing to die or run, but to receive it...which is death to the flesh, but life to God. Such is the gift of eternal life.


That is way out there. eternal life is superimposed on the life of the flesh. The dying is in a life that is alien to God. And walking in the Spirit is where God's operating system kicks in as the flesh system is disabled on the cross. But we go in and out of the Spirit.

You have some weird mystical one time thing going on...that is peculiar to you. I've never heard that extreme view of death and life.

The truth is that we have always 2 options. We can seek to be led by the Spirit or we can try being perfected according to the flesh in our own strength.

But the flesh power is always there as a default when we are not empowered by the Spirit.

So then you are way off base....and it would take a major overhaul to dig the depths of your errors here.
 

Enow

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No one has ever gone up to heaven
There is only One Immortal, Who lives in unapproachable light

2 Corinthians 12:1It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord. 2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven. 3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) 4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

Paul was talking about the apostle John for the cause he had written the Book of Revelations for.

So I reckon we have to discern that phrase for how it is used in scripture for what that actually meant.

1 Timothy 6:12 Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses. 13 I give thee charge in the sight of God, who quickeneth all things, and before Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed a good confession; 14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: 15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; 16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

Cannot mean what you think it means since we are going to see Him at His appearing. I don't think any sinner as they are now, cannot approach God in Heaven.

If Christ was in them, yeah for how the apostle John was able to by the Spirit.

 
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Enow

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hmm ok ty

Well, you wanted to know how a saint that is judged & left behind, that did not "endure to the end" can still be considered saved if OSAS was true, right? 2 Peter 3 rd chapter is about enduring to the end to escape that fire coming on the earth. It wasn't about obtaining salvation, but about abiding in Him, enduring to the end to being received as that vessel unto honor In His House. Those "disqualified" from the race as those that are saved that did not depart from iniquity. That is where the vessels unto dishonor comes from that are in His House, including former believers ( 2 Timothy 2:18-21 ). That is where the least in the kingdom of God are from that are still in the kingdom of God. Matthew 5:19

So just easy believism is true for Jesus to lay that foundation, but discipleship is about running that race in how we build on that foundation that will be judged how we shall be received by Him; as a vessel unto honor the great in the kingdom of heaven or as a vessel unto dishonor as the least in the kingdom of heaven.

When you see the truth finally, thank the Lord, because only God can help you see the truth in His words. Not me.