The False Doctrine of a 7-year Tribulation

[Stranger]

The letters to the seven churches indicate that they are churches. As for the Laodecian church, the last church age, none of them are saved. But I believe they are being saved and are part of the final number/fullness of the Gentiles. These are the ones I believe go into the Tribulation, along with Thyatira and Sardis who have believed false doctrines. They will have a choice to take the mark of the beast and be damned, or martyred and be saved. The Philadelphians are definitely saved and like in Egypt will be protected.



I disagree. I believe they are numbered in the fullness but are lukewarm, and will have to accept martyrdom, or take the easy way, take the mark of the beast and be damned. There are many in the church for the past 2000 years who will not be in heaven. Only overcomers. That means no sinners.

Makes no sense. 'none of them are saved' 'they are being saved'

You just don't want to admit that Gentiles will be saved during the Tribulation.

Stranger

 

[Stranger]

Christians believers are people from every tribe, race, nation and language. Revelation 5:9 They retain their ethnicity they were born into, but that has no bearing on their faith.
Where the problem in this issue arises, is when people who hold to the belief of a 'rapture to heaven' of the Church, while the Jews pass thru Tribulation on earth, this false belief forces a separation between Jewish Christians and all the rest.
This whole idea is not scriptural and will never happen. There is only ONE people of God, all those who freely accept the Gospel - NOW!

I believe the twenty four elders do represent the Church in Heaven in (Rev. 5:9).

The idea of the Rapture, and 7 year Tribulation, and Israel and the Church, is based upon Scripture. You don't have to agree with it, but to say it isn't based upon Scriputre is not right.

Stranger

 

[Davy]

It doesn't as you still make the Church and Israel the same.

When you say 'national Israel' I am viewing them as the God believing, Christ receiving as their King, 'national Israel'. They don't exist at this time. When an individual Jew turn to Christ at this time, even though he is in Jerusalem, then he becomes part of the Church.

Stranger

Lot of Jews don't like this, but there's this little matter about the two houses of Israel written of in God's Word. And... the matter of God's Birthright blessings which in final wound up on Joseph's two sons Ephraim and Manasseh, where it still is today.

Per 1 Kings 11 thru 2 Kings 17, because of what Solomon did, God split old Israel into two separate kingdoms. God gave Jeroboam of the tribe of Ephraim to be king over Israel in the northern "kingdom of Israel". For Rehoboam, Solomon's son of the house of David, God gave two tribes, Judah and Benjamin at Jerusalem over the southern "kingdom of Judah" (Jews). The two kingdoms had war against each other.

God removed the northern ten tribes out of the holy land, and they lost their heritage as part of Israel, and they made up the majority of the seed of Israel. Those today make up much of the Christian Church. Afterall, Jesus did say He was not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel. By the time of His 1st coming, the majority of the ten tribe northern "house of Israel" had been removed and scattered beyond Euphrates (the Jewish historian Josephus said they were still scattered in his day, around 100 A.D.).

So HOW can anyone think that the Gospel of Jesus Christ was mostly received only by Gentiles, and not the majority of the seed of Israel too? Apostle Paul in Romans 9 even quotes from Hosea to believing Gentile Romans while the Book of Hosea was originally given ONLY about the ten tribe house of Israel! That showed Paul obviously knew The Gospel of Jesus Christ would be received mainly by the lost ten tribes of the house of Israel.

The problem is false Bible teaching in institutions and organizations taken over by the 'synagogue of Satan'. And one of those false teachings preventing Christian brethren from understanding this is John Darby's Dispensationalist theories. Though Darby's Dispensationalism does use some valid event periods written of in God's Word, his speculation for the nation of Israel at the end and during Christ's future Millennial reign does not... originate from God's Word. There is no separation of Christ's Church reigning from Heaven while the nation of Israel is a restored kingdom on earth during the Millennium. Revelation 5 shows Christ's Church will reign on the earth, not up in the clouds. Not only this, but Rev.3 shows those of the 'synagogue of Satan' will be made to come bow at the feet of Christ's elect. The Millennium events happen on this earth, not up in the clouds.

 

[CharismaticLady]

When you say 'national Israel' I am viewing them as the God believing, Christ receiving as their King, 'national Israel'. They don't exist at this time. When an individual Jew turn to Christ at this time, even though he is in Jerusalem, then he becomes part of the Church.

We are viewing them differently. When I say the Church, those are Christians both Jew and Gentile. On that we agree.

When I say national Israel, they are unbelievers in Jesus as their Messiah at this time, only in God. Those who are left when the GT starts are the ones who will be saved during the last 7 years.

 

[CharismaticLady]

Makes no sense. 'none of them are saved' 'they are being saved'

You just don't want to admit that Gentiles will be saved during the Tribulation.

Stranger

Only those as you have just pointed out who are already "being saved." No unbelieving Muslims or Hindus, etc. who don't believe in Jesus at all will be saved during the GT. At that time God has put a strong delusion on them to follow the Antichrist.

 

[Paul Christensen]

Not sure what you mean to say here.

I'm keeping out of this discussion, because in these days when people getting sick and dying before their time because of the coronavirus, it is important for me to ensure that people are aware that they could die unexpectedly and find themselves in the Judgment being found guilty for violating the Ten Commandments and not having a Saviour to release them from the eternal penalty.

Here is my new Ebook about the true gospel.

 

[Keraz]

I believe the twenty four elders do represent the Church in Heaven in (Rev. 5:9).

The idea of the Rapture, and 7 year Tribulation, and Israel and the Church, is based upon Scripture. You don't have to agree with it, but to say it isn't based upon Scriputre is not right.
Stranger

Your opinions are just a puff of bad air, bereft of actual scriptural support.
Revelation 5:9 says nothing about heaven or 24 elders. Then the next verse confirms it all refers to people on earth. So your belief here is wrong.
There is no 'rapture to heaven' for anyone in the end times, just the 2 Witnesses and they are killed first.
The Tribulation of the 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls, will happen during the final 3 1/2 years of the age.
Israel and the true Church are one entity. There is only one people of God. John 17:20-23, Ephesians 4:4-6

I don't agree with your beliefs because they are not right.

 

[Stranger]

Your opinions are just a puff of bad air, bereft of actual scriptural support.
Revelation 5:9 says nothing about heaven or 24 elders. Then the next verse confirms it all refers to people on earth. So your belief here is wrong.
There is no 'rapture to heaven' for anyone in the end times, just the 2 Witnesses and they are killed first.
The Tribulation of the 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls, will happen during the final 3 1/2 years of the age.
Israel and the true Church are one entity. There is only one people of God. John 17:20-23, Ephesians 4:4-6

I don't agree with your beliefs because they are not right.

(Rev. 4:1-4) "After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. And immediatelyI was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven....And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting...."

(Rev. 4:10) "The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him...."

(Rev. 5:5) "And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not:....."

(Rev. 5:8) "And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb...."

(Rev. 5:9) " And they sung a new song....."

(Rev. 5:10) "And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth."

All you need to do is to be able to read.

The next verse, (5:10), doesn't prove your point at all.

Stranger

 

[Stranger]

Only those as you have just pointed out who are already "being saved." No unbelieving Muslims or Hindus, etc. who don't believe in Jesus at all will be saved during the GT. At that time God has put a strong delusion on them to follow the Antichrist.

Makes no sense. You can't have them as unbelievers and being saved at the same time.

Stranger

 

[Stranger]

Lot of Jews don't like this, but there's this little matter about the two houses of Israel written of in God's Word. And... the matter of God's Birthright blessings which in final wound up on Joseph's two sons Ephraim and Manasseh, where it still is today.

Per 1 Kings 11 thru 2 Kings 17, because of what Solomon did, God split old Israel into two separate kingdoms. God gave Jeroboam of the tribe of Ephraim to be king over Israel in the northern "kingdom of Israel". For Rehoboam, Solomon's son of the house of David, God gave two tribes, Judah and Benjamin at Jerusalem over the southern "kingdom of Judah" (Jews). The two kingdoms had war against each other.

God removed the northern ten tribes out of the holy land, and they lost their heritage as part of Israel, and they made up the majority of the seed of Israel. Those today make up much of the Christian Church. Afterall, Jesus did say He was not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel. By the time of His 1st coming, the majority of the ten tribe northern "house of Israel" had been removed and scattered beyond Euphrates (the Jewish historian Josephus said they were still scattered in his day, around 100 A.D.).

So HOW can anyone think that the Gospel of Jesus Christ was mostly received only by Gentiles, and not the majority of the seed of Israel too? Apostle Paul in Romans 9 even quotes from Hosea to believing Gentile Romans while the Book of Hosea was originally given ONLY about the ten tribe house of Israel! That showed Paul obviously knew The Gospel of Jesus Christ would be received mainly by the lost ten tribes of the house of Israel.

The problem is false Bible teaching in institutions and organizations taken over by the 'synagogue of Satan'. And one of those false teachings preventing Christian brethren from understanding this is John Darby's Dispensationalist theories. Though Darby's Dispensationalism does use some valid event periods written of in God's Word, his speculation for the nation of Israel at the end and during Christ's future Millennial reign does not... originate from God's Word. There is no separation of Christ's Church reigning from Heaven while the nation of Israel is a restored kingdom on earth during the Millennium. Revelation 5 shows Christ's Church will reign on the earth, not up in the clouds. Not only this, but Rev.3 shows those of the 'synagogue of Satan' will be made to come bow at the feet of Christ's elect. The Millennium events happen on this earth, not up in the clouds.

The Gospel of Christ has been mostly received by the Gentiles and not the Jews. The majority of Israel has been blinded to the Gospel. (Rom. 11:25)

I praise God for John N. Darby and C.I. Scofield, and other Dispensationalist's. They helped to form a systematic theology around end time events as written in the Scripture.

Who said the Millennium events don't happen on earth?

Stranger

 

[Davy]

The Gospel of Christ has been mostly received by the Gentiles and not the Jews. The majority of Israel has been blinded to the Gospel. (Rom. 11:25)

Well, that kind of thinking is from not understanding enough of God's written Word. What I explained about the ten lost tribes is because they lost... their heritage as part of Israel, they BECAME as Gentiles. But per Amos 9:9 God says He will gather them in final, and not the least grain will fall to the ground. That means He knows where He scattered them.

Secondly, you obviously do not know Bible history about the two houses. The Jewish historian Josephus said the title of 'Jew' comes from the tribe of Judah. Per the split of old Israel in God's Word, only the southern "kingdom of Judah" contained the tribe of Judah...

The JEWS = Southern "kingdom of Judah" with Jerusalem as the capital, Rehoboam (son of Solomon) as king = tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi.

Israel = Northern "kingdom of Israel" with Samaria as the capital, Jeroboam (tribe of Ephraim) as king = ten northern tribes of Israel.

In Romans 11, Paul said Israel in part was blinded by God. We know those represent the Jews, Paul's brethren as he said there. Thing is, those are a remnant of the "kingdom of Judah" at Jerusalem, NOT the ten tribes of the northern "kingdom of Israel".

The ten tribes of Israel were NEVER known as Jews, and that's a distinction you obviously are not aware of.

I praise God for John N. Darby and C.I. Scofield, and other Dispensationalist's. They helped to form a systematic theology around end time events as written in the Scripture.

Who said the Millennium events don't happen on earth?

Stranger

C.I.Scofied was a charlatan and a thief. He stole one of his relatives monies, claimed a doctorate he never earned, and spent time in jail, and hung out with New York bankers and lawyers.

 

[Stranger]

Well, that kind of thinking is from not understanding enough of God's written Word. What I explained about the ten lost tribes is because they lost... their heritage as part of Israel, they BECAME as Gentiles. But per Amos 9:9 God says He will gather them in final, and not the least grain will fall to the ground. That means He knows where He scattered them.

Secondly, you obviously do not know Bible history about the two houses. The Jewish historian Josephus said the title of 'Jew' comes from the tribe of Judah. Per the split of old Israel in God's Word, only the southern "kingdom of Judah" contained the tribe of Judah...

The JEWS = Southern "kingdom of Judah" with Jerusalem as the capital, Rehoboam (son of Solomon) as king = tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi.

Israel = Northern "kingdom of Israel" with Samaria as the capital, Jeroboam (tribe of Ephraim) as king = ten northern tribes of Israel.

In Romans 11, Paul said Israel in part was blinded by God. We know those represent the Jews, Paul's brethren as he said there. Thing is, those are a remnant of the "kingdom of Judah" at Jerusalem, NOT the ten tribes of the northern "kingdom of Israel".

The ten tribes of Israel were NEVER known as Jews, and that's a distinction you obviously are not aware of.




C.I.Scofied was a charlatan and a thief. He stole one of his relatives monies, claimed a doctorate he never earned, and spent time in jail, and hung out with New York bankers and lawyers.

The lost tribes of Israel are not lost to God. Just as the tribes of Judah and Benjamin and Levi are not lost to God. There is no Jew alive today who can prove which tribe he came from.

The term 'Jews' had it's origin in Babylon with the captivity of Judah. But it later came to represent any of Israel.

Yes, I have heard these accusations against Scofield. They are always by those who hate the Dispensational doctrine. If you can't defeat the doctrine, then you attack the messenger.

Stranger

 

[Keraz]

. But it [the word Jew] later came to represent any of Israel.

Only to people who don't understand God's plans and whose beliefs are refuted by the truth of the 2 Houses still separate today. Plainly Ezekiel 37 has not come to pass yet.
God does have different plans for them; The House of Judah; virtually wiped out. Isaiah 22:14, Romans 9:27
The House of Israel, now every faithful Christian; gathered and blessed as they live in all of the holy Land. Isaiah 35:1-10, Romans 9:23-26

 

[Stranger]

Only to people who don't understand God's plans and whose beliefs are refuted by the truth of the 2 Houses still separate today. Plainly Ezekiel 37 has not come to pass yet.
God does have different plans for them; The House of Judah; virtually wiped out. Isaiah 22:14, Romans 9:27
The House of Israel, now every faithful Christian; gathered and blessed as they live in all of the holy Land. Isaiah 35:1-10, Romans 9:23-26

Sorry pal. Don't try and answer a post not directed to you when you haven't answered the one that was directed to you. You're just fartin under the covers.

See post #(368). Why wouldn't you answer that? You come across as so cocky and dogmatic as some great Bible teacher and yet didn't know the first thing about the 24 elders and their location in Heaven. Just who do you teach?

Stranger

 

[Davy]

The lost tribes of Israel are not lost to God. Just as the tribes of Judah and Benjamin and Levi are not lost to God.

There's still a difference, and you'll understand it if you dig deeper in study of God's Word. Bible prophecy which God gave through His prophets to Judah (house of Judah) is one thing, and prophecy given to Israel (ten tribe house of Israel) is another. After God split old Israel into the two houses, this prophetic distinction is made for each house a lot. One need only pay attention, because after the split the Jews are distinguished as Judah, Jerusalem, kingdom of Judah, or house of Judah. But the ten tribes of Israel are distinguished as Israel, kingdom of Israel, Samaria, Ephraim, or house of Israel.

Also, God removed the ten tribe house of Israel from the land, scattering them to Assyria and the land of the Medes, about 120 years prior to Judah's seventy years captivity to Babylon. The ten tribes never returned to the holy land, but a small remnant of the Jews did return from their Babylon captivity (Ezra 2). The rest of the house of Judah chose to say in Babylon after the 70 years, because God kept His promise to take care of them there. Then from there they were scattered through the countries like Israel was. The Jews kept their heritage as part of Israel though, as God promised they would in Hosea. But the ten tribes of Israel lost theirs, living as Gentiles among Gentiles, which also God said He would cause them to do.

There is no Jew alive today who can prove which tribe he came from.

If you believe that then you really don't understand about God's promise to David.

The term 'Jews' had it's origin in Babylon with the captivity of Judah. But it later came to represent any of Israel.

Josephus said the term Jew actually began with the small remnant of the house of Judah that returned to Jerusalem from the Babylon captivity. But really, the distinction was more likely prior to that, once God split old Israel into two separate kingdoms. Those of the southern kingdom of Judah would then have likely began making the distinction between Judah and the northern house of Israel (ten tribes).

The reason why the title of Jew came to represent Israel only is because God scattered the ten tribes making them lose their heritage as Israel, as per His warnings of rebellion against Him per Deut.4 & 28. But it doesn't mean the Jews are the only people of Israel though. Lot of today's Jews like to play out the Count of Monte Christo theme against the ten tribes, acting like they no longer exist, but that doesn't work with our Heavenly Father, for He knows where He scattered the ten tribes which make up the majority of the peoples of His Israel, which is what the Amos 9:9 Scripture is about.

Yes, I have heard these accusations against Scofield. They are always by those who hate the Dispensational doctrine. If you can't defeat the doctrine, then you attack the messenger.
Stranger

Scofield's reputation is what 'he' made it, not others using hate speech against him. He didn't create the Dispensationalist doctrine you speak of anyway. He only got monies from New York bankers to put Darby's theories in print, so as to deceive peoples, and of course to make a lot of money, his main aim no doubt.

 

[Keraz]

He knows where He scattered the ten tribes which make up the majority of the peoples of His Israel, which is what the Amos 9:9 Scripture is about.

Right; God has watched over the House of Israel, in their long exile. As the prosperous Western nations, we have received the Blessings as promised by Jacob and Moses.
He sent Jesus to give us Christianity and to atone for our sins. Matthew 15:24

Paul makes it quite clear as to who are the Israelites of God today; the faithful Christian peoples, from every race, nation and language. Galatians 6:14-16
Who ARE, mainly descendants from the ten Northern tribes.

 

[Stranger]

There's still a difference, and you'll understand it if you dig deeper in study of God's Word. Bible prophecy which God gave through His prophets to Judah (house of Judah) is one thing, and prophecy given to Israel (ten tribe house of Israel) is another. After God split old Israel into the two houses, this prophetic distinction is made for each house a lot. One need only pay attention, because after the split the Jews are distinguished as Judah, Jerusalem, kingdom of Judah, or house of Judah. But the ten tribes of Israel are distinguished as Israel, kingdom of Israel, Samaria, Ephraim, or house of Israel.

Also, God removed the ten tribe house of Israel from the land, scattering them to Assyria and the land of the Medes, about 120 years prior to Judah's seventy years captivity to Babylon. The ten tribes never returned to the holy land, but a small remnant of the Jews did return from their Babylon captivity (Ezra 2). The rest of the house of Judah chose to say in Babylon after the 70 years, because God kept His promise to take care of them there. Then from there they were scattered through the countries like Israel was. The Jews kept their heritage as part of Israel though, as God promised they would in Hosea. But the ten tribes of Israel lost theirs, living as Gentiles among Gentiles, which also God said He would cause them to do.



If you believe that then you really don't understand about God's promise to David.



Josephus said the term Jew actually began with the small remnant of the house of Judah that returned to Jerusalem from the Babylon captivity. But really, the distinction was more likely prior to that, once God split old Israel into two separate kingdoms. Those of the southern kingdom of Judah would then have likely began making the distinction between Judah and the northern house of Israel (ten tribes).

The reason why the title of Jew came to represent Israel only is because God scattered the ten tribes making them lose their heritage as Israel, as per His warnings of rebellion against Him per Deut.4 & 28. But it doesn't mean the Jews are the only people of Israel though. Lot of today's Jews like to play out the Count of Monte Christo theme against the ten tribes, acting like they no longer exist, but that doesn't work with our Heavenly Father, for He knows where He scattered the ten tribes which make up the majority of the peoples of His Israel, which is what the Amos 9:9 Scripture is about.



Scofield's reputation is what 'he' made it, not others using hate speech against him. He didn't create the Dispensationalist doctrine you speak of anyway. He only got monies from New York bankers to put Darby's theories in print, so as to deceive peoples, and of course to make a lot of money, his main aim no doubt.

All of Israel are today called Jews. Yes there was designation between Judah and Israel. But later all from both Judah and Israel are called Jews.

As I said, all tribes today are lost to the Jews. None can trace their history back to their tribe.

As I said, the only people who attack Scofield are those who hate Dispensationalism. They have an agenda...just like you. You and others just wish you were used of God as Scofield was. Scofield was instrumental in furthering the Dispensational doctrine. His study Bible is known throughout the world.

Stranger

 

[Davy]

All of Israel are today called Jews. Yes there was designation between Judah and Israel. But later all from both Judah and Israel are called Jews.

Well, no, not really. Main reason is because the majority of Israel are still lost today; the majority of them still don't know who they are. They think they are Gentiles. So how they gonna' call themselves Jews? Only those of the "house of Judah" call themselves Jews.

The "house of Judah" were made up of just the tribes of Judah, Benjamin, Levi, and some small remnants of the ten tribes that refused Jeroboam's golden calf idols, and then Canaanite strangers and leftovers of Edom. The majority of Israelites were made up from the northern ten tribes which God scattered out of the land and caused to lose their heritage as Israel.

 

[Keraz]

All of Israel are today called Jews. Yes there was designation between Judah and Israel. But later all from both Judah and Israel are called Jews.

As I said, all tribes today are lost to the Jews. None can trace their history back to their tribe.

As I said, the only people who attack Scofield are those who hate Dispensationalism. They have an agenda...just like you. You and others just wish you were used of God as Scofield was. Scofield was instrumental in furthering the Dispensational doctrine. His study Bible is known throughout the world.

Stranger

Scofield will stand before God in Judgment. like all the rest of us. As a teacher, he will be more severely judged. James 3:1
I would not like to be in his shoes!

If you and many confused people want to call every descendant of Jacob; Jews, then that is your prerogative. But people who have really looked at the anthropology and history of Israel, never will confuse the two tribes of the House of Judah, with the ten tribes of the House of Israel.
They have NOT rejoined as yet. Ezekiel 37 remains to be fulfilled.
The other point to note is that God scattered Israel and He knows where they all are. Amos 9:9 He sent Jesus to offer us His Salvation and He promises to gather them and resettle them back into all of the holy Land. Isaiah 11:11-13

ALL will be faithful believers; but the rebels will die in the desert. Ezekiel 20:34-38, Isaiah 35

 

[Joseph77]

Scofield will stand before God in Judgment. like all the rest of us. As a teacher, he will be more severely judged. James 3:1
I would not like to be in his shoes!

AMEN