The False Doctrine of a 7-year Tribulation

[Keraz]

I know. It is due to two different methods of interpretation. When I say 'Israel' and you say 'Israel' don't mean the same thing....forget it.

Stranger

There is the Jewish State of Israel and there are the Israelites of God.

Those who claim to be Israel or Jews, are not actually them at all, in truth. Romans 2:29
Those who believe in God, keep His Commandments and accept the Atoning sacrifice of Jesus; are the true Israelites of God, the Overcomers for Him.
Simple really; and scripture tells us God's Plans for both groups: The enemies and rejecters of Jesus will be wiped out, Isaiah 22:14, Luke 19:27, + and those who love the Lord and live righteously, will be Blessed and their reward is to live in peace and prosperity in all of the holy Land. Psalms 60:1-5, Isaiah 35, Psalm 69:35-36, Romans 9:24-26

 

[Enoch111]

The church is here until the second coming.

How can the Church be here *until the second coming* since the Church COMES WITH CHRIST at His Second Coming from Heaven (along with all His angels)?

JUDE 1
14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, 15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

...and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee. (Zech 14:5)

 

[CharismaticLady]

I know. It is due to two different methods of interpretation. When I say 'Israel' and you say 'Israel' don't mean the same thing....forget it.

Stranger

This is what I believe when speaking of Israel.

I believe that Jesus preached the gospel to the Jews. Some of them accepted Him and became a separate entity from national Israel, the Church. Because of the unbelief of national Israel, they were blinded, and the gospel now would include any Gentile that accepted Christ, and they also went into the Church, and were separate from other Gentiles who didn't. So we now have the Church consisting of repentant Jews and Gentiles. They are separate from national Israel and Gentile nations. But God isn't done with national Israel. Their blindness is only for as long as it takes for all the repentant Gentiles to come into the Church. When that number is full and complete, that is when many things will happen simultaneously. Romans 11:25-26.

The Antichrist will be revealed. 2 Thessalonians 2:9-13

The Great Tribulation will start. 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4

The blindness of national Israel will be lifted, and they will be saved and brought into the Church. Romans 11:25-26

No additional Gentiles will be saved because no more want to repent, and then God gives those who will perish anyway a strong delusion. The last repentant Gentile already entered. Romans 11:25-26, 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4; 9-13.

Jesus gives warnings to the 7 churches and those who have not overcome will go into the Great Tribulation and have to prove their faith by submitting to being martyred. They are the only ones who come out of the GT that is written in Revelation 7.

 

[CharismaticLady]

I don't understand your question 'when I don't know what God thinks' ?.

God has given His Word so that we might know what He thinks.

The problem does not begin with 'Pre-trib'. It begins with the method of interpretation. Due to your method of interpretation you arrive at the conclusion of 'pre-trib' or 'post-trib' or whatever. Due to your method of interpretation you arrive at the conclusion that Israel and the Church are the same.

Stranger

What God thinks is His Word. Israel and the Church are not the same. (Previous post) I hope it cleared that up for you. But the Church is not a "Gentile Church" as some refer to it. The Church has both repentant Jews and Gentiles.

 

[CharismaticLady]

If they don't have the Spirit, then they are not of Christ. They are not saved.

(Rom. 8:9) "But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his."

Stranger

You can have the Spirit and still willfully sin. But why you would want to when Christ has given you a nature that hates sin is trampling on the blood of Jesus. They quench the Spirit in them.

 

[Dcopymope]

How can the Church be here *until the second coming* since the Church COMES WITH CHRIST at His Second Coming from Heaven (along with all His angels)?

JUDE 1
14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, 15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

...and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee. (Zech 14:5)

The events as described in revelation in a nutshell:

1. Sixth Seal - Day of the Lord ushers in his wrath/Great Tribulation.

2. Seventh Trumpet - the church, along with the Israelite's are "caught up" into heaven, and described in Rev 14 & 15 as being "redeemed from the earth" and standing on a "sea of glass", which is earth.

3. Seven Vials/plagues are poured onto earth.

4. The sky opens, and Jesus returns with his army.

So basically, yes I agree that the church returns with the Lord along with his angels. Its clearly described this way in revelation.

 

[CharismaticLady]

How can the Church be here *until the second coming* since the Church COMES WITH CHRIST at His Second Coming from Heaven (along with all His angels)?

JUDE 1
14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, 15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

...and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee. (Zech 14:5)

They weren't alive saints, but those who sleep. Jesus brings them back with him, and we who are alive and REMAIN, will be caught up with them to be with Christ forever. That is His second coming when every eye will see Him, not in some sudden disappearance.

 

[Dcopymope]

They weren't alive saints, but those who sleep. Jesus brings them back with him, and we who are alive and REMAIN, will be caught up with them to be with Christ forever. That is His second coming when every eye will see Him, not in some sudden disappearance.

I think that's what he was trying to say actually.

 

[Enoch111]

They weren't alive saints, but those who sleep. Jesus brings them back with him, and we who are alive and REMAIN, will be caught up with them to be with Christ forever. That is His second coming when every eye will see Him, not in some sudden disappearance.

At the Resurrection/Rapture, the saints who have passed on AS WELL as the ones who are alive are all caught up to Heaven. Then after the marriage of the Lamb they ALL come with Christ at His second coming. As noted in the Scriptures He comes to judge, not to collect His saints. So you are quite confused.

 

[CharismaticLady]

At the Resurrection/Rapture, the saints who have passed on AS WELL as the ones who are alive are all caught up to Heaven. Then after the marriage of the Lamb they ALL come with Christ at His second coming. As noted in the Scriptures He comes to judge, not to collect His saints. So you are quite confused.

Matthew 25:31 “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory.

Here is 1 Thes. 4: Is this your secret rapture or my second coming:

13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

 

[Stranger]

There is the Jewish State of Israel and there are the Israelites of God.

Those who claim to be Israel or Jews, are not actually them at all, in truth. Romans 2:29
Those who believe in God, keep His Commandments and accept the Atoning sacrifice of Jesus; are the true Israelites of God, the Overcomers for Him.
Simple really; and scripture tells us God's Plans for both groups: The enemies and rejecters of Jesus will be wiped out, Isaiah 22:14, Luke 19:27, + and those who love the Lord and live righteously, will be Blessed and their reward is to live in peace and prosperity in all of the holy Land. Psalms 60:1-5, Isaiah 35, Psalm 69:35-36, Romans 9:24-26

There is a Jewish state of Israel. And Israel is made up of Israelites, called Jews.

Though one be a Jew or Israelite, that doesn't make him an Israelite or Jew before God. (Rom. 2:29)

But, that doesn't make the Gentile who is right before God a Jew. It only makes the one who is an Israelite a true Israelite or Jew.

The Gentile who is right before God is a saved Gentile. The Jew who is right before God is a saved Jew. Both at this time are part of the Church and lose their Jew/Gentile designation before God.

Stranger

 

[Stranger]

This is what I believe when speaking of Israel.

I believe that Jesus preached the gospel to the Jews. Some of them accepted Him and became a separate entity from national Israel, the Church. Because of the unbelief of national Israel, they were blinded, and the gospel now would include any Gentile that accepted Christ, and they also went into the Church, and were separate from other Gentiles who didn't. So we now have the Church consisting of repentant Jews and Gentiles. They are separate from national Israel and Gentile nations. But God isn't done with national Israel. Their blindness is only for as long as it takes for all the repentant Gentiles to come into the Church. When that number is full and complete, that is when many things will happen simultaneously. Romans 11:25-26.

The blindness of national Israel will be lifted, and they will be saved and brought into the Church. Romans 11:25-26

Then you recognize a distinction between the Church and Israel. Two separate bodies of believers. To this I agree.

I disagree with what you have as the beginning of the Church. You have it prior to (Acts 2). Though the full rejection of Christ by Israel took place in (Matt. 12), the Church would not begin until Pentacost.

I disagree with your statement about Israel being brought into the Church. There is nothing in (Rom. 11:25-26) to suggest that. That Israel as a nation will be saved, yes. But that doesn't make them part of the Church. They are brought back into their Covenant relationship established by the Abrahamic Covenant.

In other words, the Church is not grafted into Israel. And Israel is not grafted into the Church. Both are branches. Neither are the tree or the root. (Rom. 11:24) (Rom. 11:18-23).

Stranger

 

[Stranger]

What God thinks is His Word. Israel and the Church are not the same. (Previous post) I hope it cleared that up for you. But the Church is not a "Gentile Church" as some refer to it. The Church has both repentant Jews and Gentiles.

But in post #(343) you say Israel is brought into the Church. This makes no sense. If Israel is brought into the Church, she is part of the Church. Thus they, the Church and Israel, are the same.

The Church is made up of both Jews and Gentiles who come to Christ. They lose their national distinction. The Church is not made up of believing Gentiles and a believing national Israel.

Here again, in (Rom. 11:24-25), Israel is not being brought into the Church. She is being brought back into the Abrahamic Covenant relationship as a nation of Israel.

Stranger

 

[Stranger]

You can have the Spirit and still willfully sin. But why you would want to when Christ has given you a nature that hates sin is trampling on the blood of Jesus. They quench the Spirit in them.

In #(331) you indicated those who were not ovecomers were in the church but not of the church. That means they are not saved. If you don't have the Spirit of Christ, as you also indicated they didn't, then you are not Christian. You are not saved. (Rom. 8:9)

Point being: those who were in the church in (Rev. 3:14-22) who were not overcomers, were not saved. Which means they would not be Christians who go through the Tribulation and identified as the Tribulation saints of (Rev. 7:9-17). This means there are Gentiles saved during the Tribulation. They don't become Israel or the Church. They are the Tribulation Saints.

Stranger

 

[CharismaticLady]

Then you recognize a distinction between the Church and Israel. Two separate bodies of believers. To this I agree.

Believers in God, or believers in Christ? The Church does have Jews in it. You agree to that don't you? I just hate it when someone calls the Church the "Gentile Church." There is only one Church.

I disagree with what you have as the beginning of the Church. You have it prior to (Acts 2). Though the full rejection of Christ by Israel took place in (Matt. 12), the Church would not begin until Pentacost.

At Pentecost 3000 Jews were saved. Then the Lord added to the church daily those who were being saved. (No Gentiles yet.) Then Samaritans, who were part of the ten tribes. Then not till Acts 10 were Gentiles added, when God cleansed the unclean meat. Not only could Gentiles receive the gospel, but the ban on meats also. It was no longer a sin to eat pork, etc.

Acts 2:
41 Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them. 42 And they continued steadfastly in the apostles’ doctrine and fellowship, in the breaking of bread, and in prayers. 43 Then fear came upon every soul, and many wonders and signs were done through the apostles. 44 Now all who believed were together, and had all things in common, 45 and sold their possessions and goods, and divided them among all, as anyone had need.

46 So continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, they ate their food with gladness and simplicity of heart, 47 praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily those who were being saved.

I disagree with your statement about Israel being brought into the Church. There is nothing in (Rom. 11:25-26) to suggest that. That Israel as a nation will be saved, yes. But that doesn't make them part of the Church. They are brought back into their Covenant relationship established by the Abrahamic Covenant.

In other words, the Church is not grafted into Israel. And Israel is not grafted into the Church. Both are branches. Neither are the tree or the root. (Rom. 11:24) (Rom. 11:18-23).

The way I read it is after the Antichrist is revealed, then national Israelites will be saved and grafted back into the Church. The Church is Jesus. He is the root. Therefore, the Church started with Jews and ended with Jews, and Gentiles were grafted during the middle.

 

[CharismaticLady]

But in post #(343) you say Israel is brought into the Church. This makes no sense. If Israel is brought into the Church, she is part of the Church. Thus they, the Church and Israel, are the same.

Brought into Jesus, if that makes more sense to you.

As far as national Israel now who die without Christ, they are not for me to judge. I only know about the Church/Jesus. Those who abide in Jesus and He in them. But the blindness that was put on Israel because of their rejection is only until the last repentant Gentile is saved, then their blindness will be lifted so they can be saved. But that is only during the last 7 years of the world before Christ comes.

The Church is made up of both Jews and Gentiles who come to Christ. They lose their national distinction.

I can agree with that after they come into the Church. But the saved Jews usually call themselves Messianic Jews.

The Church is not made up of believing Gentiles and a believing national Israel. Here again, in (Rom. 11:24-25), Israel is not being brought into the Church. She is being brought back into the Abrahamic Covenant relationship as a nation of Israel.

You almost make it sound like a national Jew who comes to Christ has to move out of Jerusalem. They lose their citizenship. I don't agree with that. I also see the Abrahamic Covenant has to do with the Seed/Christ. So they are brought into Christ who is the Church. As far as their land, that started happening in 1948, and will ultimately be destroyed when a new heaven and new earth is created.

 

[CharismaticLady]

In #(331) you indicated those who were not ovecomers were in the church but not of the church. That means they are not saved. If you don't have the Spirit of Christ, as you also indicated they didn't, then you are not Christian. You are not saved. (Rom. 8:9)

The letters to the seven churches indicate that they are churches. As for the Laodecian church, the last church age, none of them are saved. But I believe they are being saved and are part of the final number/fullness of the Gentiles. These are the ones I believe go into the Tribulation, along with Thyatira and Sardis who have believed false doctrines. They will have a choice to take the mark of the beast and be damned, or martyred and be saved. The Philadelphians are definitely saved and like in Egypt will be protected.

Point being: those who were in the church in (Rev. 3:14-22) who were not overcomers, were not saved. Which means they would not be Christians who go through the Tribulation and identified as the Tribulation saints of (Rev. 7:9-17). This means there are Gentiles saved during the Tribulation. They don't become Israel or the Church. They are the Tribulation Saints.

I disagree. I believe they are numbered in the fullness but are lukewarm, and will have to accept martyrdom, or take the easy way, take the mark of the beast and be damned. There are many in the church for the past 2000 years who will not be in heaven. Only overcomers. That means no sinners.

 

[Keraz]

There is a Jewish state of Israel. And Israel is made up of Israelites, called Jews.

Though one be a Jew or Israelite, that doesn't make him an Israelite or Jew before God. (Rom. 2:29)

But, that doesn't make the Gentile who is right before God a Jew. It only makes the one who is an Israelite a true Israelite or Jew.

The Gentile who is right before God is a saved Gentile. The Jew who is right before God is a saved Jew. Both at this time are part of the Church and lose their Jew/Gentile designation before God.

Stranger

Christians believers are people from every tribe, race, nation and language. Revelation 5:9 They retain their ethnicity they were born into, but that has no bearing on their faith.
Where the problem in this issue arises, is when people who hold to the belief of a 'rapture to heaven' of the Church, while the Jews pass thru Tribulation on earth, this false belief forces a separation between Jewish Christians and all the rest.
This whole idea is not scriptural and will never happen. There is only ONE people of God, all those who freely accept the Gospel - NOW!

 

[Stranger]

Believers in God, or believers in Christ? The Church does have Jews in it. You agree to that don't you? I just hate it when someone calls the Church the "Gentile Church." There is only one Church.



At Pentecost 3000 Jews were saved. Then the Lord added to the church daily those who were being saved. (No Gentiles yet.) Then Samaritans, who were part of the ten tribes. Then not till Acts 10 were Gentiles added, when God cleansed the unclean meat. Not only could Gentiles receive the gospel, but the ban on meats also. It was no longer a sin to eat pork, etc.

Acts 2:
41 Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them. 42 And they continued steadfastly in the apostles’ doctrine and fellowship, in the breaking of bread, and in prayers. 43 Then fear came upon every soul, and many wonders and signs were done through the apostles. 44 Now all who believed were together, and had all things in common, 45 and sold their possessions and goods, and divided them among all, as anyone had need.

46 So continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, they ate their food with gladness and simplicity of heart, 47 praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily those who were being saved.



The way I read it is after the Antichrist is revealed, then national Israelites will be saved and grafted back into the Church. The Church is Jesus. He is the root. Therefore, the Church started with Jews and ended with Jews, and Gentiles were grafted during the middle.

Belief in God and Christ are the same as I am talking about the God of the Bible. The only God. The Church does have Jews in it. But it is predominately Gentile. Yes there is only one Church of Jesus Christ.

Well, I agree that the Church started in (Acts 2). You had it start earlier before.

We will disagree concerning (Rom. 11:24-25).

Stranger

 

[Stranger]

Brought into Jesus, if that makes more sense to you.

As far as national Israel now who die without Christ, they are not for me to judge. I only know about the Church/Jesus. Those who abide in Jesus and He in them. But the blindness that was put on Israel because of their rejection is only until the last repentant Gentile is saved, then their blindness will be lifted so they can be saved. But that is only during the last 7 years of the world before Christ comes.



I can agree with that after they come into the Church. But the saved Jews usually call themselves Messianic Jews.



You almost make it sound like a national Jew who comes to Christ has to move out of Jerusalem. They lose their citizenship. I don't agree with that. I also see the Abrahamic Covenant has to do with the Seed/Christ. So they are brought into Christ who is the Church. As far as their land, that started happening in 1948, and will ultimately be destroyed when a new heaven and new earth is created.

It doesn't as you still make the Church and Israel the same.

When you say 'national Israel' I am viewing them as the God believing, Christ receiving as their King, 'national Israel'. They don't exist at this time. When an individual Jew turn to Christ at this time, even though he is in Jerusalem, then he becomes part of the Church.

Stranger