Saved Or Predestined ???

[Eternally Grateful]

Hello Enoch,
I do believe exactly what scripture says;

1] jn6:44...No man CAN come to me,UNLESSThe Father which sent me draws him.
2] The Son seeks and saves that which is lost...lk19
3] yes, if all men would repent they would be saved...but they do not repent of sin because men love darkness rather than light because their deeds are evil.

Men are commanded to repent and believe. If and when they do it is evidence they were given by the Father to the Son...jn6:37

We need to make sure we complete the passage to see the whole context

John 6:35–40 (NKJV): And Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst. 36 But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe. 37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. 40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life;
and I will raise him up at the last day.”

God gave them yes. Based on his will. That whoever sees and believes. There were some there who saw and did not believe

faith and lack of faith was what separates the two groups

 

[Candidus]

It does not counter that fact that god knew each person before time

it was not some random thing. He chose based on his will. And his will was that whoever has faith has eternal
Life

take this knowledge (knowing who will
Have faith has eternal life) and predetermining that based on that faith they will be saved is predestination 101

There is no evidence that God chose every individual to be in heaven or hell.

Predestination 101

I agree with A.M Hills~ John Calvin wrote: "For since God foresees future events only in consequence of His decree that they shall happen, it is useless to contend about foreknowledge, while it is evident that all things come to pass rather by ordination and decree.....It is a horrible decree, I confess; but no one can deny that God foreknew the future fate of man before he was created; and that He did foreknow it because it was appointed by His own decree." This lurid quotation involves three fundamental errors of Calvinism, and they are all false. (1) That God by decree causes everything, and so, is responsible for everything. (2) That God cannot know anything unless He causes it! This is a baseless assumption. (3) That God unchangeably decreed a universe necessarily so full of wickedness, and involving the unavoidable, eternal, helpless, hopeless doom of so many people that the very thought of it should fill any right-thinking soul with horror! This whole idea is accusing God of great wickedness. He never made any such "horrible decree." How so many great and good men have failed to perceive the vast unreasonableness and the monstrosity of such a theory, we cannot understand.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

There is no evidence that God chose every individual to be in heaven or hell.

Predestination 101

I agree with A.M Hills~ John Calvin wrote: "For since God foresees future events only in consequence of His decree that they shall happen, it is useless to contend about foreknowledge, while it is evident that all things come to pass rather by ordination and decree.....It is a horrible decree, I confess; but no one can deny that God foreknew the future fate of man before he was created; and that He did foreknow it because it was appointed by His own decree." This lurid quotation involves three fundamental errors of Calvinism, and they are all false. (1) That God by decree causes everything, and so, is responsible for everything. (2) That God cannot know anything unless He causes it! This is a baseless assumption. (3) That God unchangeably decreed a universe necessarily so full of wickedness, and involving the unavoidable, eternal, helpless, hopeless doom of so many people that the very thought of it should fill any right-thinking soul with horror! This whole idea is accusing God of great wickedness. He never made any such "horrible decree." How so many great and good men have failed to perceive the vast unreasonableness and the monstrosity of such a theory, we cannot understand.

Well thanks for your opinion

I will go with the fact of what scripture says

I was chosen before time to be confirmed to him

people who do not like it are usually NOSAS people who think salvation can not be guaranteed as Jesus did in John 6. But think it is based on us. And can be lost

 

[Preacher4Truth]

What he said is biblical truth.

 

[Candidus]

Well thanks for your opinion

I will go with the fact of what scripture says

I was chosen before time to be confirmed to him

people who do not like it are usually NOSAS people who think salvation can not be guaranteed as Jesus did in John 6. But think it is based on us. And can be lost

Nothing in John 6 speaks of Eternal Security or OSAS. (Neither are in the Bible.)

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Nothing in John 6 speaks of Eternal Security or OSAS. (Neither are in the Bible.)

Yeah

i mean to never hunger or thirst after you eat. To Never die After you eat. To live forever after you eat. To have eternal life and to be assured Jesus will raise you personally.
Yeah. No eternal security there..

I will take jesusnat his word thank you

 

[Candidus]

Yeah

i mean to never hunger or thirst after you eat. To Never die After you eat. To live forever after you eat. To have eternal life and to be assured Jesus will raise you personally.
Yeah. No eternal security there..

I will take jesusnat his word thank you

The Bible teaches assurance, conditioned on a present tense faith in Christ (v. 40). Jesus, nor the Bible teaches an irrevocable, unconditional OSAS or Eternal Security. That's what Jesus said, and I believe it!

 

[Renniks]

The way I understand this and it may not be right is that because he knows everything from the beginning to the end he knows who will respond to his offer of salvation, so in that sense, he does choose people according to His foreknowledge. That ties up with the verse that says he chose us before the foundation of the world which is before Genesis 1;1.

I see no difference between saying we are chosen according to his foreknowledge and saying we have free will to join the group called "elect." Because God knows we will believe, yes, but his knowledge doesn't cause our belief.

 

[Renniks]

I sure am!



Hmmm

Proverbs 16:4 The LORD has made all for Himself, Yes, even the wicked for the day of doom.

Never heard of Pharaoh?

Romans 9:17-18
17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth." 18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.

Again, do a little digging. Pharaoh had the same choice as everyone. He was hardened after he hardened his own heart. It was a result of his rebellion. Neither of these verses is claiming that God hardens people unconditionally or chooses some for damnation. If God causes sin, that would make God the only sinner. God is perfectly righteous. There is no darkness in him. He can't cause people to sin.

 

[Renniks]

You said "I don't understand why you think these verses support limited atonement. They don't even imply it." Well, I don't know about limited atonement. But this is what I see in the passage, that Jesus Christ lays down His life specifically for His sheep.

Sure and his sheep are those who enter through him, as I've already shown. You have to read the passage backward to get to your conclusion.

 

[DNB]

My friend, Jesus said a Man must be born again to see the Kingdom of heaven in jn3.
If I read his words out loud, and a person disagrees with me, who are they really disagreeing with?

Jesus also said, 'if your eye offends you, cut it off'. Do you subscribe to severing body parts in order to desist sin?
Jesus also said 'He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood...' .Do you accept the doctrine of transubstantiation?
Everyone knows what the Scripture says, it is the comprehension that is in question.

 

[Renniks]

You have that problem because you begin with the wrong foot.

Here's the situation. Man sinned, making himself a slave of sin and hellbound.
God is under no obligation to save man.

Are you alright with that or do you deny any of that?

Now God saves not all of man. Is God unrighteous by that? My answer is no. How about you?

God had chosen a people among the peoples of the earth, to be His people, that is Israel. Is God unrighteous by that? My answer is no. How about you?

To the people whom He had not chosen, was God unjust or not fair by not choosing them? My answer is No. How about you?

What happens to the people that God did not choose to be His people? They will be going to hell because of their sin. Can they blame God for not choosing them? My answer is no. How about you?

Tong
R0065

They will go to hell because they did not choose God. "Choose you this day who you will serve." Your problem is starting off with the assumption that God doesn't' call all to salvation.
If man sinned only because God left him no other option, then God could not be considered just.

 

[Taken]

Romans3 says no one seeks God ,no, not one.aquote from psalm14:1-3

Well aware Romans 3 is speaking of what WAS (past tense) Written About "THEY", and WHO "THEY" are.

Roman 3:
[10] "As it is written," There is none righteous, no, not one:
[11] There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
[12] "They" are all gone out of the way, "they" are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

The teaching IS impressing...
You can DO as "THEY" did...and get the same result "THEY" did...
"BY NOT"...seeking God, Not righteous, DO not good, Be Accounted Not Good, BE without understanding...

Or ...
Hear and Submit and Become MADE Righteous, Good, Whole Through Christ Jesus, and receive Understanding.

You imply what WAS written about "They", continues to Apply to All.

I disagree.
I believe there are a Few who HAVE become Converted IN Christ, and By His Power have been MADE restored to Good, Made Righteous, Made Whole, and Can Not go out of His Way.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Eternally Grateful]

The Bible teaches assurance, conditioned on a present tense faith in Christ (v. 40). Jesus, nor the Bible teaches an irrevocable, unconditional OSAS or Eternal Security. That's what Jesus said, and I believe it!

Jesus said unlike the fathers, who ate manna and are dead, whoever eats this food will live forever

either your right and Jesus lied, or Jesus meant it, and my hope of eternal life is secure in him

there is no other option

 

[Candidus]

Sure and his sheep are those who enter through him, as I've already shown. You have to read the passage backward to get to your conclusion.

While a Fatalist will emphasize that Jesus died "for" the sheep, a Biblical Christian does not deny that fact; they also believe that Jesus died for the whole world also.

Jesus died for all, not just some small sliver of Predestined "elect." "And He is the propitiation for our sins: and not for our sins only, but also for the sins of the whole world." 1 Jn. 2:2. This passage is so clear on its own that it must take a pretty good theologian to get you to disbelieve it! To say that Christ did not die for each and every person in the entire world throughout history is to deny that God, "is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." 2 Peter 3:9. Does God love the world, or just the elect "few"? Why would God insist that we "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost." ? According to the Fatalistic "gospel," salvation comes by God's decree and not by any preaching or believing; not by Grace, but by Fate! A person would be equally saved with or without any Gospel according to this logic, because their future is already set. Fatalism makes the "Good News" to be "Horrible News" if you didn't hit the "Lucky Lotto of Fate." It changes the "Good News", the Gospel, to be "Bad News" for the majority of mankind. To limit the availability of the Gospel to a lucky few is to paint a picture of a God who dangles the promise of eternal bliss before all mankind, and leads them to believe the promise can be theirs, while He knows that He never intended to give it to them in the first place! In essence, it makes the "Good News" a horrendous and cruel lie. He bids us to preach to all, while He has no intent on saving all.

 

[Candidus]

Jesus said unlike the fathers, who ate manna and are dead, whoever eats this food will live forever

either your right and Jesus lied, or Jesus meant it, and my hope of eternal life is secure in him

there is no other option

Two verses earlier Jesus conditioned everlasting life on a present tense, a here and now, faith.(47). Again, in verse 54, Jesus elaborates and says that this is conditional... "Whoso eateth (present tense.... right now) my flesh, and drinketh (present active participle), my blood, hath (presently) eternal life..."

Jesus does not lie, but men will make Him out to be a liar if they do not agree with the conditions He sets!

there are no other options...

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Two verses earlier Jesus conditioned everlasting life on a present tense, a here and now, faith.(47). Again, in verse 54, Jesus elaborates and says that this is conditional... "Whoso eateth (present tense.... right now) my flesh, and drinketh (present active participle), my blood, hath (presently) eternal life..."

Jesus does not lie, but men will make Him out to be a liar if they do not agree with the conditions He sets!

there are no other options...

Your belief here has a major problem

if belief causes on to never hunger never thirst never die live forever etc etc

then once faith becomes active it is assured

else again. Jesus lied. Because if believe must be continued. Then the things he promised could never be given at all

it’s like saying here drink this and you will never thirst again

but.....

you must keep drinking (believe) or you will thirst again

It contradicts itself

 

[Candidus]

Your belief here has a major problem

if belief causes on to never hunger never thirst never die live forever etc etc

then once faith becomes active it is assured

else again. Jesus lied. Because if believe must be continued. Then the things he promised could never be given at all

it’s like saying here drink this and you will never thirst again

but.....

you must keep drinking (believe) or you will thirst again

It contradicts itself

Your argument is not with me, it's with Jesus.

I believe Him and what He said! I am not going to use human philosophy to say that He is wrong and must be corrected!

 

[Candidus]

Your belief here has a major problem

if belief causes on to never hunger never thirst never die live forever etc etc

then once faith becomes active it is assured

else again. Jesus lied. Because if believe must be continued. Then the things he promised could never be given at all

it’s like saying here drink this and you will never thirst again

but.....

you must keep drinking (believe) or you will thirst again

It contradicts itself

In Scripture, it is a fact that whenever final salvation is spoken of, it is on the condition of a present tense faith.

But the Bible also speaks of coming to faith/belief, as an act in the moment. I would describe it this way...

When someone "gets saved" they step from darkness to light. This is a momentary action indicated by an aorist tense. These aorist descriptions are few in Scripture, because once someone metaphorically "steps over the line" that act then becomes something in the past. The momentary act is said to give you "something" in that moment, yet if God says afterwards says that the continuance of that result is conditioned on the same action in the present, then it is requirement for the benefit of that action to continue.

Our condition of having eternal life is connected to our present tense faith/belief. This is never denied in Scripture.

 

[CharismaticLady]

CL, quit boasting about how empowered that you are, and start proving it. You sound selfish when you say, 'all my prayers are answered'.
Is that all that the gift of the Spirit means to you? I don't buy a single word that you say, until you tell me that the gift allowed you to save countless lost souls, heal countless people, inspire many with wisdom, and so on.
You seem to be extremely misguided and deluded.

I have. But I'm not boasting of myself, but that God is still alive and well, and not a historical figure, and His word is just as true today, as it was in the first century. Just as nothing ceased during the old covenant of the Ten Commandments (not a jot or a tittle), nothing has ceased during our new covenant. You must think you are in a third covenant, one without power.