Saved Or Predestined ???

[Renniks]

You really know how to weaken God and make the man powerful by your free will, this time as to have power to break even what God has predestined.

Do you consider yourself foreknown by God Renniks?

If you do, do you believe you are also predestined by God to be conformed to the image of Jesus Christ?

If you do, do you have the power to prevent what God has predestined?

A reminder: God is the Potter, man is the clay. God is the Creator, man is the created.

Tong
R0066

God gave men free will. God is the Potter and where does that concept come from?

Jeremiah 18 This is the word that came to Jeremiah from the Lord: 2 “Go down to the potter’s house, and there I will give you my message.” 3 So I went down to the potter’s house, and I saw him working at the wheel. 4 But the pot he was shaping from the clay was marred in his hands; so the potter formed it into another pot, shaping it as seemed best to him.

5 Then the word of the Lord came to me. 6 He said, “Can I not do with you, Israel, as this potter does?” declares the Lord. “Like clay in the hand of the potter, so are you in my hand, Israel. 7 If at any time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to be uprooted, torn down and destroyed, 8 and if that nation I warned repents of its evil, then I will relent and not inflict on it the disaster I had planned. 9 And if at another time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to be built up and planted, 10 and if it does evil in my sight and does not obey me, then I will reconsider the good I had intended to do for it.

11 “Now therefore say to the people of Judah and those living in Jerusalem, ‘This is what the Lord says: Look! I am preparing a disaster for you and devising a plan against you. So turn from your evil ways, each one of you, and reform your ways and your actions.’ 12 But they will reply, ‘It’s no use. We will continue with our own plans; we will all follow the stubbornness of our evil hearts.’”

God shapes people who allow him to shape them. He punishes those who follow the stubbornness of their evil hearts.
God does not force anyone to come to him or remain his.

 

[CharismaticLady]

CharismaticLady, I agreed with you when you said, concerning Israel, God did not fail. But the reason I agreed seems to be different than what you are saying there. It's opinion, I'm sorry to say, not scriptures. I can show you in scriptures why God did not fail concerning Israel. It is off topic. But if you are interested, please just say so. Either I start a new thread or we'll just have a conversation.



No I am not a Calvinist. I am a Christian. It is Jesus Christ whom I follow and listen to. So, please take Calvin out of our exchanges. If my view happens to be in line with his view, that would just be coincidence and does not in any way mean that I am a Calvinist. Also, do not read into my post whatever it is you know about the beliefs of Calvin and hold me as though those were necessarily my beliefs.

Tong
R0062

Good to know you are not a Calvinist. Although his teachings have seemed to infiltrate the doctrines of Protestantism to a strange degree. I see it in the same twisting of scripture by some posters. That is a general statement.

Not sure where you are going with Israel, but you can PM me if you like.

 

[CharismaticLady]

No one truly knows except God.

We share or preach the gospel. If someone hears and ends up repenting unto God and have faith in Jesus Christ, I could consider him to be a sheep, for Jesus said that His sheep hear His voice". Now, Jesus also said of the sheep, "and they follow me". So, seeing him obeying and keeping the words of Jesus Christ, give me more reason to believe that he is a sheep.

Tong
R0063

I think I'll have to agree with the other poster that you disagreed with. All have sinned and were born with a carnal nature since Adam sinned. And when you hear of Christ and yet cannot keep His words to be holy because of sin in our nature, it is then that you can acknowledge you are a weak sinner and repent. That is a true repentance, which some believe is a work so don't do, and in answer to that true repentance, Jesus gives you His Holy Spirit, that takes you out of that sinful flesh nature and into the Spirit, where you can partake of the divine nature and become truly righteous and holy. Because without His Spirit and without holiness, no man shall see God.

I know you like Scripture, and I used it in my response. If you are not sure, I'll post the texts.

 

[CharismaticLady]

29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

When you see this phrase I have underlined, you know John is speaking of the apostles. So did Jesus die just for the apostles or for the whole world? So yes, we do become sheep.

 

[DNB]

I have. But I'm not boasting of myself, but that God is still alive and well, and not a historical figure, and His word is just as true today, as it was in the first century. Just as nothing ceased during the old covenant of the Ten Commandments (not a jot or a tittle), nothing has ceased during our new covenant. You must think you are in a third covenant, one without power.

You braggarts need to allow others tell you that you have the Spirit, not impose your perception on others.
In other words CL, I have yet to see anyone on this forum praise you according to the boasts that you make. But rather, quite the opposite.
I've been accused of many things also, but I have never attempted to claim that I have such a relationship with, or endowment of, God's Spirit.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

then once faith becomes active it is assured

else again. Jesus lied. Because if believe must be continued. Then the things he promised could never be given at all

it’s like saying here drink this and you will never thirst again

but.....

you must keep drinking (believe) or you will thirst again

It contradicts itself

This is a really big mess you have going here. You have just said faith must not be expected to continue because if it were, then God could never give anyone anything. This really does need to be posted in the unorthodox forum. I am begging you to think about what you just said.

You have just said it cannot be expected that a man keeps his hand to the plow whereas our Lord says if a man puts his hand to the plow and turns back he is not fit for the kingdom of heaven.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I could invite you to an online gathering where you could hear the gospel preached, but its distressing that you wont go with me because you are convinced you have heard the gospel already, even though no man who had heard and seen would ever say what you said in that post.

 

[CharismaticLady]

You braggarts need to allow others tell you that you have the Spirit, not impose your perception on others.
In other words CL, I have yet to see anyone on this forum praise you according to the boasts that you make. But rather, quite the opposite.
I've been accused of many things also, but I have never attempted to claim that I have such a relationship with, or endowment of, God's Spirit.

Jesus said we would be hated.

 

[Enoch111]

1] jn6:44...No man CAN come to me,UNLESS The Father which sent me draws him.

Since the Father draws all men to Christ through the Gospel, those who fail to obey the Gospel are given to Christ. And while the Father is drawing all men, so is the Son and so is the Holy Spirit. There is ample Scripture to prove that. Let's take just one passage:

THE FATHER DRAWS ALL MEN THROUGH THE GOSPEL
And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the Gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Only those who refuse to believe the Gospel are damned.

 

[DNB]

Jesus said we would be hated.

Charlatan's excuse!

 

[Preacher4Truth]

Since the Father draws all men to Christ through the Gospel

The Father doesn't draw all men to the Gospel, and never has.

All under condemnation prior to any rejecting the Gospel and can and will be damned whether they've heard it or rejected it as the whole world is guilty before God. Romans 3:9ff.

The only reason any will be saved is due to God's purpose, will, and counsel to elect some to be in Christ. Ephesians 1.

 

[Tong2020]

I think I'll have to agree with the other poster that you disagreed with. All have sinned and were born with a carnal nature since Adam sinned. And when you hear of Christ and yet cannot keep His words to be holy because of sin in our nature, it is then that you can acknowledge you are a weak sinner and repent. That is a true repentance, which some believe is a work so don't do, and in answer to that true repentance, Jesus gives you His Holy Spirit, that takes you out of that sinful flesh nature and into the Spirit, where you can partake of the divine nature and become truly righteous and holy. Because without His Spirit and without holiness, no man shall see God.

I know you like Scripture, and I used it in my response. If you are not sure, I'll post the texts.

In your Post#242, you asked "How do you believe someone is a sheep?". I gave you a quick and short answer which is "No one truly knows except God. We share or preach the gospel. If someone hears and ends up repenting unto God and have faith in Jesus Christ, I could consider him to be a sheep, for Jesus said that His sheep hear His voice". Now, Jesus also said of the sheep, "and they follow me". So, seeing him obeying and keeping the words of Jesus Christ, give me more reason to believe that he is a sheep."

And you disagree here. Why, do you not agree that no one truly knows except God? Why, if you shared the gospel to somebody and he repented and believed, could you not take him/her to be a believer or a sheep and say "good to know to you brother/sister!", or would you rather say "we'll see if you truly are a brethren"? Why, if you see this somebody later on living a practical life of obedience and faithfulness to the words of Jesus Christ, would that not give you more reason to believe that he/she is a sheep? I could not understand how you disagree with my answer. Well,....

Tong
R0068

 

[Tong2020]

Whom he foreknew...

this shows predestination can not be separated from foreknowledge

god did not just randomly pick and chose

I too believe that God did not just randomly pick and chose. But I believe too that God did not also looked in the future (which many here seems to take as composed of things and events that are random events rather than planned and preordained events by God) and seeing you for example as believing the gospel, that He picked you and chose you for salvation and predestined you because of that. I do not believe that, for the simple reason that God seeing ahead that you will believe, defeats the purpose and necessity of having to choose you for salvation. I don't see the purpose and necessity for God to choose you. Why so? Simply because, that which you say God had seen in the future, that is, your believing the gospel, WILL SURELY come to pass and WILL NOT change. And so it makes no sense for God to do anything else to make sure you will believe and be saved. Even though there is more to say about this, I think I will have to stop here.

On the matter of being "also predestined", this of course could not be separated from having been chosen for salvation, but not as you say, from foreknowledge. For God, besides those who will believe, also knows ahead in the future, people who will not believe the gospel and so are going to hell. In what you say is foreknowledge is, that too is foreknowledge, right? Now scriptures says nothing about them being predestined, right? Okay, as I was saying, being "also predestined" means that the one chosen for salvation by God will surely attain to be what God had predestined him/her to be. According to scriptures, God had predestined him to be conformed to the image of Jesus Christ, which image is nothing short of perfection, holiness, righteousness, etc. That certainly only means that he is heaven bound and without fail nor change of course. This is why we have scriptures saying "whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified." If you'll look at it, it's nothing but about the salvation work of God, certain and sure.

Tong
R0069

 

[Tong2020]

It's a mistake to take the phrase "through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth" to be a condition of God's election. That would be forcing the verse to mean something it does not say. The said phrase is a modifier of the salvation for which the election was for. It is "salvation" that the phrase is a modifier of and not the election or choosing.

Hardly a mistake... the Bible speaks of "predestination" to holiness, or Christ-likeness, (Rom. 8:29,30) it makes natural reasoning to see that here, the phrase "through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth" is referring to what has already been said and established as predestined in Scripture.

While the Bible speaks of "predestination" to holiness, or Christ-likeness, that is not what makes the phrase "through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth" in 2 Thess. 2:13, a condition of God's election. Else, we can just ignore word constructions and grammar, at will. Well, I know we are free to do that, anytime we feel like doing it, and for whatever purpose we have.

Tong
R0070

 

[Enoch111]

The Father doesn't draw all men to the Gospel, and never has.

NOT TRUE.

ISAIAH 45: ALL THE ENDS OF THE EARTH
21 Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.
22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.

ISIAH 55: EVERYONE THAT THIRSTETH
1 Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat; yea, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price.
2 Wherefore do ye spend money for that which is not bread? and your labour for that which satisfieth not? hearken diligently unto me, and eat ye that which is good, and let your soul delight itself in fatness.
3 Incline your ear, and come unto me: hear, and your soul shall live; and I will make an everlasting covenant with you, even the sure mercies of David.
4 Behold, I have given him for a witness to the people, a leader and commander to the people.
5 Behold, thou shalt call a nation that thou knowest not, and nationsthat knew not thee shall run unto thee because of the LORD thy God, and for the Holy One of Israel; for he hath glorified thee.
6 Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near:
7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Your argument is not with me, it's with Jesus.

I believe Him and what He said! I am not going to use human philosophy to say that He is wrong and must be corrected!

I see it this way

we have you offering someone a drink. Saying drink this over and over. If you do this you might get eternal life

or we have Jesus saying drink this. And you will never thirst again. Because what I have to offer will become rivers of living water springing to eternal life (John 4 agrees with John 6)

yours is based on human effort

Jesus is based on gods promise and his power

 

[Tong2020]

Yeah

i mean to never hunger or thirst after you eat. To Never die After you eat. To live forever after you eat. To have eternal life and to be assured Jesus will raise you personally.
Yeah. No eternal security there..

I will take jesusnat his word thank you

Here's food, good food!

John 10:26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. 27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. 30 I and My Father are one.”

Time to praise God!

Tong
R0071

 

[Grailhunter]

As I said, there is no such thing as becoming a sheep. There is not a single verse in John 10 that speaks of such.

John 10: 1 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.
2 But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.
3 To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.
4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.
5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.
6 This parable spake Jesus unto them: but they understood not what things they were which he spake unto them.

Nothing in verses 1-6 that speaks of becoming a sheep. What we have there is that the sheep is already spoken about in the passage.

7 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.
8 All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.
9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.
10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

Also, nothing in verse 7-10 that speaks of becoming a sheep. What we have there is the sheep still is spoken about in the passage.

11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.
12 But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep.
13 The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep.

Also, nothing in verse 11-13 that speaks of becoming a sheep. What we have until this passage is still the sheep spoken about, but nothing about it as formerly not a sheep.

14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.
15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.
16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Also, nothing in verse 14-16 that speaks of becoming a sheep. Still the sheep spoken about, and not a slightest hint of it as formerly being not a sheep.

26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

Also, nothing in verse 26-29 that speaks of becoming a sheep. Still the sheep spoken about, and not a slightest hint of it as formerly being not a sheep.

You said "I don't understand why you think these verses support limited atonement. They don't even imply it." Well, I don't know about limited atonement. But this is what I see in the passage, that Jesus Christ lays down His life specifically for His sheep.

14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.
15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.
16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Verse 15 is plain and clear, Jesus lay down His life for the sheep and not for any other else.

Tong
R0064

Rosy words for someone that believes in a monster god. Have you ever heard of the spaghetti monster god? What you propose is that God has all the characteristics of Satan! Saved and damned by predestination. Satan has a guaranteed quota? Satan would vote for this idea! The monster puppet master god! Don't you think it would be boring for Him to watch His own orchestrated puppet show for thousands of years? Babies damned from birth with no hope of escape! Sounds like a horror flick! Then why would God predestine His own Son to go through what He did? Do you think He got His jollies off on it? What do prayers, faith, grace, and love mean in such a belief system.. It is all forced. What are the people that promote something that would be the desire of Satan?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

This is a really big mess you have going here. You have just said faith must not be expected to continue because if it were, then God could never give anyone anything. This really does need to be posted in the unorthodox forum. I am begging you to think about what you just said.

You have just said it cannot be expected that a man keeps his hand to the plow whereas our Lord says if a man puts his hand to the plow and turns back he is not fit for the kingdom of heaven.

I never said any such thing

I said faith one achieved is what Jesus said was required, at that time, what he promised is given.

saying faith is required to continue makes faith dependent on man, not on God, thats troublesome, I mean when did God ever do anything to cause his children to lose faith?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I too believe that God did not just randomly pick and chose. But I believe too that God did not also looked in the future (which many here seems to be composed of things and events that if not of God's power to see ahead are not really known to God, because they are random events rather than planned and preordained events) and seeing you for example as believing the gospel, that He picked you and chose you for salvation and predestined you because of that. I do not believe that, for the simple reason that God seeing ahead that you will believe, defeats the purpose and necessity of having to choose you for salvation. I don't see the purpose and necessity for God to choose you. Why so? Simply because, that which you say God had seen in the future, that is, your believing the gospel, WILL SURELY come to pass and WILL NOT change. And so it makes no sense for God to do anything else to make sure you will believe and be saved. Even though there is more to say about this, I think I will have to stop here.

On the matter of being "also predestined", this of course could not be separated from having been chosen for salvation, but not as you say, from foreknowledge. For God, besides those who will believe, also knows ahead in the future, people who will not believe the gospel and so are going to hell. In what you say is foreknowledge is, that too is foreknowledge, right? Now scriptures says nothing about them being predestined, right? Okay, as I was saying, being "also predestined" means that the one chosen for salvation by God will surely attain to be what God had predestined him/her to be. According to scriptures, God had predestined him to be conformed to the image of Jesus Christ, which image is nothing short of perfection, holiness, righteousness, etc. That certainly only means that he is heaven bound and without fail nor change of course. This is why we have scriptures saying "whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified." If you'll look at it, it's nothing but about the salvation work of God, certain and sure.

Tong
R0069

You misunderstood me,

I do not think God had to force or do something to make me believe