The myth of grace-only & easy-believism shattered forever

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Eternally Grateful

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Would be v. hard - impossible - to show from Scripture...
I actually have people in my church that believe a person can give god the "finger" so to speak and lose salvation (that is the term they use)

while I disagree with them losing salvation. I do agree with them, the end result is they will not be in heaven.
 

Jane_Doe22

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Are you willing to show me how that is possible?
You said you believe a person can return their gift.

I gave some scripture and reasons why I disagree with this thinking

Are we going to discuss this or should I move on?
Whether or not you agree with my belief doesn't change the facts of what it I believe.

To be blunt: until you point-blank acknowledge the facts about what I believe (that salvation is a gift), I'm not being understood and I don't a rat's tail about your critiquing things not understood.
 

farouk

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I actually have people in my church that believe a person can give god the "finger" so to speak and lose salvation (that is the term they use)

while I disagree with them losing salvation. I do agree with them, the end result is they will not be in heaven.
I guess that to regard salvation as so light a matter in the first place can shows examples of easy believism, so called.

Whereas a work of grace, if genuine, is permanent, indeed.
 

Eternally Grateful

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Whether or not you agree with my belief doesn't change the facts of what it I believe.

I never insinuated that I could change your beliefs now did I?

You made a statement that everyone believes salvation is a gift, which is not earned, And I said I disagree. You have yet to even start to prove me wring in this area. you have made it all about you

You said you believe a person can return his gift, and he will not be saved

I said, I agree He will not get to heaven, But not for the same reason.

But you did not want to discuss that, You wanted to prove me wrong about thinking that not everyone thinks salvation is by Grace not works.

To be blunt: until you point-blank acknowledge the facts about what I believe (that salvation is a gift), I'm not being understood and I don't a rat's tail about your critiquing things not understood.

yawn

You claim you believe salvation is a gift, Thats your belief. and I have never denied what you think.

I may not agree. (we have not even been abe to go there yet) But I can not nor have I ever said your belief is not your belief, in fact it is quite foolish to think that someone has the right or ability to tell you you do not believe what you do. Especially since I get that from so many people in so many threads. and am sick of it. '


You made a statement, I said I disagree, You have FAILED to even attempt to discuss it. and all you have done is attack.

again, If you do not want to discuss what I think, then let me know and I will move on. I am sick of it

I will say one again

I do not agree with you that everyone thinks we are saved by grace apart from works.

Considering another user said they believe they have to endure to the end, and continue to run the race toearn the reward (salvation) I think I have proven my point

Good day maam. When your ready to sit and talk, let me know.
 

Jane_Doe22

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I never insinuated that I could change your beliefs now did I?

You made a statement that everyone believes salvation is a gift, which is not earned, And I said I disagree. You have yet to even start to prove me wring in this area. you have made it all about you

You said you believe a person can return his gift, and he will not be saved

I said, I agree He will not get to heaven, But not for the same reason.

But you did not want to discuss that, You wanted to prove me wrong about thinking that not everyone thinks salvation is by Grace not works.



yawn

You claim you believe salvation is a gift, Thats your belief. and I have never denied what you think.

I may not agree. (we have not even been abe to go there yet) But I can not nor have I ever said your belief is not your belief, in fact it is quite foolish to think that someone has the right or ability to tell you you do not believe what you do. Especially since I get that from so many people in so many threads. and am sick of it. '


You made a statement, I said I disagree, You have FAILED to even attempt to discuss it. and all you have done is attack.

again, If you do not want to discuss what I think, then let me know and I will move on. I am sick of it

I will say one again

I do not agree with you that everyone thinks we are saved by grace apart from works.

Considering another user said they believe they have to endure to the end, and continue to run the race toearn the reward (salvation) I think I have proven my point

Good day maam. When your ready to sit and talk, let me know.
This is just gotten too frustrating for the both of us to continue.
 
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CharismaticLady

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He said this to people in the tribulation period. That there will be great tribulation such as never seen before or after, he who endures to the end wil be saved (PHYSICALLY) eternal salvation is not in context here

Did you know that the Great Tribulation could start in as little as 2 years? Are you going to be alive then? What if you will be required to denounce Christ in order to live? Or will you choose to be beheaded in order to save your eternal life?

Salvation is not a prise it is a gift. You run to earn a reward. Thats WHY paul said in romans 4 that salvation was not a reward or wage which could be earned..

Yes, however, only His true sheep will be saved. So how do you know you will endure to the end, and not be one of those who leaves, as if they were not one of Christ's in the first place? Didn't they also believe they were saved?

So your enduring to be saved, and trying to earn a reward. so how can you say you are not trying to earn your salvation by works? You just in one paragraph proved you are trying to earn your salvation did you not?

You can say that if you like, but I love Jesus. Think of your wife. Do you stay faithful to her out of love, or because it would cost too much to get a divorce, or you have to work hard not to get caught.
 
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Eternally Grateful

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Did you know that the Great Tribulation could start in as little as 2 years? Are you going to be alive then? What if you will be required to denounce Christ in order to live? Or will you choose to be beheaded in order to save your eternal life?



Yes, however, only His true sheep will be saved. So how do you know you will endure to the end, and not be one of those who leaves, as if they were not one of Christ's in the first place? Didn't they also believe they were saved?



You can say that if you like, but I love Jesus. Think of your wife. Do you stay faithful to her out of love, or because it would cost too much to get a divorce, or you have to work hard not to get caught.

How can you say these things and not believe your trying to earn your salvation..
 
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CharismaticLady

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What?

what does that have to do with enduring to the end to earn a reward, with running the race to earn a reward, or remaining a sheep?

Tell me what the alternative is? How do you know you are saved? Do you believe everything Jesus said? Do you do everything He said? How do you act? Do you do anything you want, and what is it you want?
 
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FollowHim

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Did you know that the Great Tribulation could start in as little as 2 years? Are you going to be alive then? What if you will be required to denounce Christ in order to live? Or will you choose to be beheaded in order to save your eternal life?



Yes, however, only His true sheep will be saved. So how do you know you will endure to the end, and not be one of those who leaves, as if they were not one of Christ's in the first place? Didn't they also believe they were saved?



You can say that if you like, but I love Jesus. Think of your wife. Do you stay faithful to her out of love, or because it would cost too much to get a divorce, or you have to work hard not to get caught.
I like this question. If people are being beheaded for faith, things are so bad across the board, life is not worth living and going to be with the Lord is real release.

There is a reality when the innocent and the righteous are being killed, that society has truly gone mad.
I remember reading a testimony of a young man put on trial and sentenced to death. His summary was if his society was that nuts, when justice was evil and evil was good, what was the point of fighting for the right things, it was just a farce when evil people prosper.

Some love the idea believers are the victims. We are not, we go to be with the Lord. The victims are the innocents with no way out and only rulers and authorities who would rather kill them than do anything good. God bless you
 

Eternally Grateful

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Tell me what the alternative is? How do you know you are saved? Do you believe everything Jesus said? Do you do everything He said? How do you act? Do you do anything you want, and what is it you want?
What does this have to do with you preaching you must endure till the end and run the race to earn your salvation

how do I know I a, saved? God told me I was, he told me if I call out to him after I became poor in spirit he would save me, he told me if I believed like peter, that he had the words of eternal life, I will never hunger never thirst, live forever never die, have eternal life and be risen, (John 6) I base my faith which is the substance of things hoped for the evidence of things not seen (Heb 11) that hope which God who can not lie promised before time began (Titus 3) the faith that comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God (Rom 10) that after I hear, and after my faith, is, sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise until resurrection day (Eph 1) I can go on and on, I hope you see the picture starting of where I get my faith?

As for the rest of your questions, salvation is not based on doing everything God says, of we could do this we could fulfill the law (we have not) and we would be sinless, John says this is impossible

are you asking if I am perfect? If I said yes I would be lying, I live my life striving to please god, but I a, not to proud to admit I do not always live to his standard.

why do you want to know about works?

that’s right you are running a race to earn the reward.

I know I could run from now until I die, and I will still fall short,
 

FollowHim

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Tell me what the alternative is? How do you know you are saved? Do you believe everything Jesus said? Do you do everything He said? How do you act? Do you do anything you want, and what is it you want?

A cause and effect relationship is missing from some.
For Jesus to be believed, loved, held up as the greatest example we have, the leader who shows us the way out, the builder who puts eternity in our hearts, to then ignore Him, rebel against His teaching and advice, to spurn love and openness from the heart, to not honour the very things Jesus honours is being a follower and disciple.

Even in the world those who love teachers repeat their teachings and try to become small versions of their hero.

Some seem to claim they love their teacher yet hate his ways and words. Sounds rather like a false flag operation, pretending to be something then doing the opposite.

I know from first hand, deception of the heart is very difficult to see. You can think you are doing something right, but in the end are doing the opposite of your intention because one has too much complexity and layers of motivation and truth. So a follower sins because they are so lost only God can magically change them at the last moment, bam and its done. To deny this bam, is unbelief and worthy of damnation and the worst torture ever, trampling on the cross and denying the victory won.

Now in this view, Jesus is going to heaven but is donating His pass to us sinners, so we have to do nothing, its an automatic free ride with no downside or even input, just the first stepping on the escalator. The catch is worse. Those who claim to being changed and transformed through their walk are deluded liars, hypocrites, trying to earn salvation. A subtle shift from this is salvation, the change, the working out of grace and Gods word in our hearts, to these folk is evil proving oneself as ok, while sinning and failing.

Unfortunately these folk call us liars, fakers, and evil. So anything we testify to or share is deception and evil from the enemy. One needs to be aware of the shell these folk create where truth is lie, good is evil, and its a conspiracy. In this world good works are evil unless done by Gods people, who are sinners covered by Jesus, the only authentic honest people there could be. Any conviction of sin is actually the enemy denying their salvation, because there sin even though on going, just shows how deep Christs work is in forgiving them. It passes them by no scripture say God forgives wanton sinners who continue to sin and do evil deeds, in fact, all the time, only those who do good and leave evil are blessed and approved of, everywhere.

In one discussion they used the term wakeamole, to refute we need to walk righteously. These are nice folk who have a trumatic experience in faith, often ocd guilt ridden, self condemning and victims of judgementalism. But their response is condemn good as evil, and hold up unfullfilled victory is actual reality of the cross. The perfect bride of Christ, is a wreck at the last minute Jesus will put right. Its like students who say learning courses is just so you can cram at the end to get the pass mark, not that everything you learn needs to be applied in the real world.

Jesus is about life and death, heaven and hell, eternity and truth. There is no compromise or faking here.
 

mailmandan

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Cool.

Back to my original statement:
Everyone believe that salvation is a gift from God. Nobody believes it's earned.

Cool.
If you believe that salvation is by works (at least in part) then you believe it’s earned (at least in part). Either we are saved by trusting or we are saved by working. Either Christ did it all or else we did some of it. You can’t have it both ways.
 
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mailmandan

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This whole thing is a straw man argument.

Everyone believes that salvation is a gift of God and no one can "earn" it. Everyone also believes that if you say you are saved that you acts in life should show some evidence of that. Nobody actually believes in cheap grace (talk only), and nobody believes that man "earns" salvation by works.
No straw man argument here and once again, you can’t have it both ways.
 
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FollowHim

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You use the word "striving" but isn't that "working"? Are you striving with your own will-power?

Some folk love the free grace gospel but try and blend it with discipleship. You get this mess of doing things for God but not believing it is holy, righteous or worthy. Bit pointless then, ready to be put in the lake of fire.

The reason they hate to define their faith, because it gets shot to pieces. Better believe the principles and bend scripture to fit it as you go.
But it is like dealing with a chameleon, they will propose something one day and change it the next.

So Christ victory is complete and He is the creator but He fails to change us into His people today, leaving it to the last moment at the resurrection as His big reveal. But surely if it has value, He should do it now. But then there would be no excuse of unchanged lives or no fruit or reality, so it must be in the distant future. But this makes God defeated and pointless, rather die and be with Him today than live this wreck of a failed life today. In one view suicide is not sinful, and you are saved, so why not go ahead.

God the creator knows how to heal and make us whole. It is why it is good news, today, in our lives, in truth and reality. The fact that a bunch of unbelievers have not found God or His healing is their problem not Gods. They need to search Him out, and get things right. He declares those who seek Him He will answer. God bless you