Truth is not relative

[justbyfaith]

well, you say that, but Jesus would fit the Scriptural def of a "father" to us right

capital "F"...as in, the spiritual sense.

Whereas Ezekiel 18:20 is talking about biological fathers and sons.

 

[bbyrd009]

The Centurion (Cornelius) was not saved merely by his almsgivings. He had to call for Peter and have the gospel preached to him, before he actually believed and received the Holy Ghost with his friends; and was thereby saved.

well ok, but that was later, yet he was commended for his faith before all that, and was not condemned while he was still a Mithraist? But assuming conversion "saved" him, then you have some other beliefs to answer for, namely those of the Mithraist, right
Apollos waters

 

[bbyrd009]

Whereas Ezekiel 18:20 is talking about biological fathers and sons.

to your hearing maybe, but wadr that is your addition imo, and may not be what was intended.

 

[justbyfaith]

well ok, but that was later, yet he was commended for his faith before all that, and was not condemned while he was still a Mithraist? But assuming conversion "saved" him, then you have some other beliefs to answer for, namely those of the Mithraist, right
Apollos waters

I'm afraid I'm in the dark concerning what you mean by "Mithraist."

 

[justbyfaith]

to your hearing maybe, but wadr that is your addition imo, and may not be what was intended.

You are interpreting it as though the scripture can contradict itself; and that is not sound hermeneutical practice.

 

[bbyrd009]

You are interpreting it as though the scripture can contradict itself; and that is not sound hermeneutical practice.

yet we cannot Quote "Jesus died for our sins," and we know what ppl who believed in Zeus and the Cult of Sol Invictus believe, and we know that No one has ever gone up to heaven, and also that There is only One Immortal, the very thing you hope to become after death, right.

So i would agree that Scripture does not contradict Itself, and ask you where you feel that is being done, if not from the Christian Mithraist pov? Isnt the story of Esau pretty clear, in this context?

 

[Willie T]

I'm afraid I'm in the dark concerning what you mean by "Mithraist."

He means one who worshiped Roman gods.

 

[Giuliano]

In context, this is talking about the fact that the son does not bear the iniquity of his father; it does not say there that Jesus cannot die in our place as a substitutionary atonement.

Using scripture to attempt to contradict other scripture will be a fruitless exercise; since scripture interprets scripture and therefore it is to be taken in the understanding wherein it does not contradict the other verse in question.

Therefore Ezekiel 18:20 cannot be taken to mean that 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 is invalid.

I Corinthians 15 does not talk about "substitutionary atonement." You ought not interpret it to contradict Ezekiel.

Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
22 All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.
23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord God: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?

The Christian must repent of his sins. Jesus will do nothing for us if we refuse to repent. He may carry our burdens when we are too weak ourselves; but we are expected to mature so we can start to bear our own burdens.

Matthew 10:38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.

The Law of Christ also tells us we should help bear the burdens of others when they cannot bear them themselves; but in the end, each man must bear his own burden.

Galatians 6:1 Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.
2 Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.
3 For if a man think himself to be something, when he is nothing, he deceiveth himself.
4 But let every man prove his own work, and then shall he have rejoicing in himself alone, and not in another.
5 For every man shall bear his own burden.

 

[marks]

I think that if you look at Hebrews 2:11-13 and Malachi 2:10 you might change your mind.

But He is certainly not our father biologically.

Let's look!



11 For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,
12 Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee.
13 And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me.

We are Jesus' brothers, in that He is the Son of God, and we are children of God. Of course, we became His family when we are born from above. It was while we were enemies that Christ died for us.

Malachi 2:10 Have we not all one father? hath not one God created us? why do we deal treacherously every man against his brother, by profaning the covenant of our fathers?

Isn't this telling us the same thing, that we are the children of God?

Paul actually calls everyone children of God in this respect:

27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:
28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

The word there is genos, which means that we came from Him, though it's not the word for child or son.

The parallelism in Malachi points to this understanding also. Have we not all one father? Hath not one God created us?

Much love!

 

[marks]

He means one who worshiped Roman gods.

I think he also means all of us who worship Jesus as God, and have the hope of the resurrection. As best I've been able to figure out.

 

[marks]

And man is just a bit of earth is he not, a dead bit of earth unless or until he has received the Life which Jesus brought? So then is not hell in the heart of the man?

I don't think it works that way. We can call the heart of man hellish, still, the unseen realm, sheol, hades, still is called a place, where peole are, after they've died.

Much love!

 

[bbyrd009]

I'm afraid I'm in the dark concerning what you mean by "Mithraist."

well, what later became Cult of Sol Invictus, what the Roman "church" introduced into Christianity, what Apollos waters means? I could run it down for you, basically the belief that one might attain immortality after death and be admitted to the Elysian Fields, or what we now think of as a "place" called heaven, rather than the kingdom of heaven is within you

so, Death, More Abundantly rather than life, more abundantly?

 

[bbyrd009]

He means one who worshiped Roman gods.

ha ya, they "exist" for sure, huh? lol
we even have them in our Welcome Harbor, we plaster them all over our civic undertakings, district of Columbia, etc
Mercury! Apollo! Liberty!

 

[bbyrd009]

but we are expected to mature so we can start to bear our own burdens.

nice imo, so, when one is ready to undertake the responsibility, "Christ died for my sins," when i "killed" Him, imo

 

[justbyfaith]

yet we cannot Quote "Jesus died for our sins,"

Just read the story at the end of every gospel.

And also, "Christ died for our sins, can be found." Do you not believe that Jesus is the Christ? (see 1 John 5:1).

The Christian must repent of his sins. Jesus will do nothing for us if we refuse to repent.

This is true. yet, how do you think forgiveness is provided for and also God be just?

Let's look!



11 For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,
12 Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee.
13 And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me.

We are Jesus' brothers, in that He is the Son of God, and we are children of God. Of course, we became His family when we are born from above. It was while we were enemies that Christ died for us.

Malachi 2:10 Have we not all one father? hath not one God created us? why do we deal treacherously every man against his brother, by profaning the covenant of our fathers?

Isn't this telling us the same thing, that we are the children of God?

Paul actually calls everyone children of God in this respect:

27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:
28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

The word there is genos, which means that we came from Him, though it's not the word for child or son.

The parallelism in Malachi points to this understanding also. Have we not all one father? Hath not one God created us?

Much love!

I would encourage you to think on these scriptures more completely and to think on what their application might be in how I someone might take from them that Jesus is the Father.

what Apollos waters means? I could run it down for you, basically the belief that one might attain immortality after death and be admitted to the Elysian Fields, or what we now think of as a "place" called heaven, rather than the kingdom of heaven is within you

I believe that the Elysian Fields in Roman and/or Greek mythos were located in Hades; parallel to Abraham's bosom in holy scripture.

 

[Giuliano]

This is true. yet, how do you think forgiveness is provided for and also God be just?

God forgives people when they repent. That's easy. However there are complications in this world. Adam's offense brought death into the world. Is it fair that all Adam's offspring should be punished for his offense? No, it isn't; and Jesus, the second adam, can and does fix that for us.

 

[bbyrd009]

God forgives people when they repent.

Who told you that you were naked?

i dont see any "repentance" in the passage at all? so i dunno

imo "forgiveness" does not save anyone

I believe that the Elysian Fields in Roman and/or Greek mythos were located in Hades; parallel to Abraham's bosom in holy scripture.

ok and wadr i believe No one has ever gone up to heaven, There is only One Immortal, If you dig a pit for others to fall into, you end up in it yourself, and you and your sons will be here with me

 

[justbyfaith]

God forgives people when they repent. That's easy. However there are complications in this world. Adam's offense brought death into the world. Is it fair that all Adam's offspring should be punished for his offense? No, it isn't; and Jesus, the second adam, can and does fix that for us.

Yes they are forgiven when they repent; but their past sins have to be taken into account; justice requires that they be paid for by the party who committed them. So they cannot be forgiven without propitiation: which I define as substitutionary atonement. But you can look it up in a Bible Dictionary.

 

[Enoch111]

ok and wadr i believe No one has ever gone up to heaven...

You keep on harping on this nonsense when the Bible says that all the saints are in Heaven. So EVERYONE has gone up to Heaven.

On the other hand, if you are reluctant to go up to Heaven, you can always choose the opposite.

 

[justbyfaith]

You keep on harping on this nonsense when the Bible says that all the saints are in Heaven. So EVERYONE has gone up to Heaven.

On the other hand, if you are reluctant to go up to Heaven, you can always choose the opposite.

Not everyone...only those who have believed on Jesus and have then passed on.