Truth is not relative

[Enoch111]

Not everyone...only those who have believed on Jesus and have then passed on.

I already said "saints". That is the "everyone".

 

[amadeus]

I believe that the scripture is to be taken more literally than that.

While your interpretation may be valid, it does not nullify the traditional one.

The traditional may well be what Dante and others have imagined. It might hard to trace using scripture or our own preconceived notions.

 

[amadeus]

I don't think it works that way. We can call the heart of man hellish, still, the unseen realm, sheol, hades, still is called a place, where peole are, after they've died.

Much love!

Adam and Eve died when they disobeyed God. All of their offspring, the offspring of the dead, have also been dead. Jesus confirms here:

"But Jesus said … let the dead bury their dead." Matt 8:22

 

[justbyfaith]

The traditional may well be what Dante and others have imagined. It might hard to trace using scripture or our own preconceived notions.

Luke 16:19-31.

 

[justbyfaith]

Adam and Eve died when they disobeyed God. All of their offspring, the offspring of the dead, have also been dead. Jesus confirms here:

"But Jesus said … let the dead bury their dead." Matt 8:22

spiritual death is not the same as physical death.

 

[justbyfaith]

I already said "saints". That is the "everyone".

Ok.

 

[amadeus]

In context, this is talking about the fact that the son does not bear the iniquity of his father; it does not say there that Jesus cannot die in our place as a substitutionary atonement.

Using scripture to attempt to contradict other scripture will be a fruitless exercise; since scripture interprets scripture and therefore it is to be taken in the understanding wherein it does not contradict the other verse in question.

Therefore Ezekiel 18:20 cannot be taken to mean that 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 is invalid.

Jesus died to open the Way for us. The Way was closed and guarded when Adam and Eve were put on the outside. Jesus opened up the Way, so that each of us may walk through it, but like Paul, to do so requires dying by us:

"I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily."I Cor 15:31

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.
He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal." John 12:24-25

We cannot simply walk in just as we are...

"And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.
Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." matt 22:12-13

What garment should we wear?

"Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil." Eph 6:11

Of what does this armour consist?

"Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;
And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;
Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked
And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:" Eph 6:14-17

 

[marks]

I would encourage you to think on these scriptures more completely and to think on what their application might be in how I someone might take from them that Jesus is the Father.

Perhaps you could be more specific what you mean.

We look at the Trinity, the Father, Son, Spirit, all One. But then we also look at how each is spoken of, ways that establish the sort of relationship we have with God.

But I am interested in hearing more of what you have in mind.



Much love!

 

[marks]

i dont see any "repentance" in the passage at all? so i dunno

Good point. Come to think of it, I didn't notice forgiveness either.

 

[amadeus]

Luke 16:19-31.

You cited it, but it does not change a thing, does it? How many arguments have men had as to whether it is a parable or a real history? Would my opinion make a difference no matter which side I took? I cannot increase anyone. I do simply seek to consume the entire loaf, much being not understood and let God interpret when and if He will

"But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God" I Cor 14:28

 

[marks]

I already said "saints". That is the "everyone".

Gotta be careful around here! That's one of the reasons I like this forum. Can't get away with much!

 

[justbyfaith]

Jesus died to open the Way for us. The Way was closed and guarded when Adam and Eve were put on the outside. Jesus opened up the Way, so that each of us may walk through it, but like Paul, to do so requires dying by us:

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.
He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal." John 12:24-25

Not necessarily to dispute your point, but to dispute that the passage in question substantiates it: the passage above is something that Jesus spoke concerning His own death and resurrection, saying that He Himself would die and that as a result there would be much fruit that would be brought forth.

Of course it can be taken as an objective truth; however I am not certain that this passage in particular teaches that we must die in order to have everlasting life.

A person may receive Christ and then go on to be with the Lord before they have any chancxe to die to self.

And concerning physical death, they may accept Christ and then be raptured immediately.

 

[marks]

Adam and Eve died when they disobeyed God. All of their offspring, the offspring of the dead, have also been dead. Jesus confirms here:

"But Jesus said … let the dead bury their dead." Matt 8:22

This is true! If only more people understood this! Humanity is dead, that is why we need to become part of the new humanity, alive in Christ, instead of dead in Adam.

Just the same . . . speaking of physical death. That's how the Scripture speaks of sheol, the unseen realm. But no, you make a good point, there are different deaths.

Much love!

 

[justbyfaith]

You cited it, but it does not change a thing, does it? How many arguments have men had as to whether it is a parable or a real history? Would my opinion make a difference no matter which side I took? I cannot increase anyone. I do simply seek to consume the entire loaf, much being not understood and let God interpret when and if He will

"But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God" I Cor 14:28

I will interpret it as being a literal account and not a parable.

This is clear when you look at other scriptures; such as Matthew 13:41-42, Matthew 13:49-50, and Matthew 25:46.

 

[bbyrd009]

You keep on harping on this nonsense when the Bible says that all the saints are in Heaven. So EVERYONE has gone up to Heaven.

On the other hand, if you are reluctant to go up to Heaven, you can always choose the opposite.

ha well obv i would love nothing better pEnoch, and if you Quote "all the saints are in heaven" i guess we can see?
But obv you cannot wadr, sorry
what we can Quote is No one has ever gone, and i'm pretty sure you cannot Quote any contradiction to that wadr

 

[marks]

Of course it can be taken as an objective truth; however I am not certain that this passage in particular teaches that we must die in order to have everlasting life.

For the redeemed, the required death is met in Christ's death. The soul that sins shall die. If we die in Christ, that satisfies righteousness and judgment. Having died in Christ, we are now past that, having passed from death into life, His life. His death, now His life.

Much love!

 

[amadeus]

I think he also means all of us who worship Jesus as God, and have the hope of the resurrection. As best I've been able to figure out.

Or whoever or whatever we worship as Nehushtan [see II Kings 18:4]!

 

[justbyfaith]

Perhaps you could be more specific what you mean.

We look at the Trinity, the Father, Son, Spirit, all One. But then we also look at how each is spoken of, ways that establish the sort of relationship we have with God.

But I am interested in hearing more of what you have in mind.



Much love!

The person in question being spoken of is our Big Brother; and ye He is also said to have children as God. There is only one Father. Think about it.

 

[justbyfaith]

Or whoever or whatever we worship as Nehushtan [see II Kings 18:4]!

That is talking about an idol made of brass; not the Person of the Son of God!

 

[bbyrd009]

Good point. Come to think of it, I didn't notice forgiveness either.

hmm. Imo the "forgiveness" is implied in the question, or at least the lack of condemnation, but it is interesting to me that "ask God for forgiveness" or even "ask for forgiveness" period are not found in Scripture! weird huh. Personally i would confess your sins, one to another and expect Mithraists to crucify you for it, as they are wont to do right