Saved Or Predestined ???

[Tong2020]

This isn't even about salvation. It's about God choosing Esau and Jacob for different jobs.

Romans 9:6 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, 7 nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.” 8 That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed. 9 For this is the word of promise: “At this time I will come and Sarah shall have a son.”

Please tell us, what is the word of God spoken about by Paul in verse 6?

10 And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac 11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), 12 it was said to her, “The older shall serve the younger.” 13 As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.”

Please tell us what is the purpose of God according to election spoken of by Paul there?

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! 15 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.” 16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.” 18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.

Why does Paul asked the questions in verse 14 in relation to what He just said in the previous passage? What is Paul's point in verses 14-18?

Tong
R0521

 

[Renniks]

Please tell us, what is the word of God spoken about by Paul in verse 6

It's the prophecies about Israel being the line through which salvation would come to the world.

 

[Renniks]

Please tell us what is the purpose of God according to election spoken of by Paul there?

That the Messiah would come through the line of Israel. That was God's purpose, fulfilled in this case by Jacob being chosen for the job.

"Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of Christ, who is God over all, forever praised! [1] Amen."

This is the plan that has been fulfilled in Jesus and Paul is retracing how God worked it out.

 

[Renniks]

Why does Paul asked the questions in verse 14 in relation to what He just said in the previous passage? What is Paul's point in verses 14-18?

His point is that God used even Israel's rebellion to bring about his plan to offer salvation to all. This also refers back to a conversation Moses had with God in Exodus:

"the LORD said, "I will cause all my goodness to pass in front of you, and I will proclaim my name, the LORD, in your presence. I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion."

The overall point here is that God has the right to work his plan out through whatever means he chooses.
We find in the old testament that the means was personal relationships with key people. There is nothing here about individuals chosen for salvation and others rejected.

 

[Tong2020]

It's the prophecies about Israel being the line through which salvation would come to the world.

Romans 9:6 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, 7 nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.” 8 That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed. 9 For this is the word of promise: “At this time I will come and Sarah shall have a son.”

Question: Please tell us, what is the word of God spoken about by Paul in verse 6?

Renniks: It's the prophecies about Israel being the line through which salvation would come to the world.

No sir. You ought to read out of what is written in the scriptures and not read in it what you want it to say, such as your answer there. Read verse 3 and perhaps you will see light there. In verse 3, Paul expressed how he wish that he were anathema from Christ for the sake of his countrymen according to the flesh, who are Israelites. For what sake or end that is apparently so great that Paul wanted for them to have, that Paul evidently so much cared about, that he even is willing to be accursed from Christ? That could not be anything less than pertaining their salvation, that they be saved from the punishment of sin.

The word of God spoken about by Paul there are the promises that God have made concerning Israel mentioned in verse 4, which promises concerns the salvation of God.

Tong
R0522

 

[JunChosen]

You don't understand corporate election. I believe I've tried to explain it to you before, but you can't seem to grasp that being chosen in Christ means that we are not individually chosen for salvation, but those who believe are the chosen.

So you believe everyone in your church are saved as per corporate election? Do you even understand the meaning of the Parable of the Wheat and Tares?

Every saved person is born in different times in history. Plus, no one can become saved unless the Father "draw" him!

Believing is not the cause of salvation, rather believing is the result of salvation.

To God Be The Gloty

 

[Tong2020]

That the Messiah would come through the line of Israel. That was God's purpose, fulfilled in this case by Jacob being chosen for the job.

"Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of Christ, who is God over all, forever praised! [1] Amen."

This is the plan that has been fulfilled in Jesus and Paul is retracing how God worked it out.

10 And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac 11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), 12 it was said to her, “The older shall serve the younger.” 13 As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.”

Question: Please tell us what is the purpose of God according to election spoken of by Paul there?

Renniks: That the Messiah would come through the line of Israel. That was God's purpose, fulfilled in this case by Jacob being chosen for the job.

As I said, you ought to read out of what is written in the scriptures and not read in it what you want it to say. The purpose of God according to election of Jacob (Israel) over Esau, as I have shown in my other post, is that which has to do with the promises God have made mentioned in verse 4.

In verse 6 Paul was saying that it is not as though God could not bring about His promises concerning Israel, considering that Israel, as a whole, rejected Jesus Christ. He began to explain that not all the Jews are people God chose for Himself. Not all of Abraham’s descendants are children of God. God told Abraham, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.” This means that children born to Abraham are not all children of God. The children of the promise are counted as the seed, as is Isaac. But not only this that God spoken about Isaac, but also Rebecca who gave birth to two sons. Now both of them were sons of Isaac. But even before the two sons were born, we see God’s plan of choosing. For Rebecca was told, “The older son will work for the younger son.” And it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.” And Paul tells us that God's election, as it was in the case of Isaac, is not based on what good or evil the children have done. Paul here effectively shows that by and according to God's election, the purpose of God will surely not fail and will be accomplished.

The idea that Jacob was chosen for a job, as if it then was Jacob's job that the Messiah will come from his line, is way out of line and makes no sense. For such could never be a job that Jacob could have and could bring about.

Tong
R0523

 

[Tong2020]

His point is that God used even Israel's rebellion to bring about his plan to offer salvation to all. This also refers back to a conversation Moses had with God in Exodus:

"the LORD said, "I will cause all my goodness to pass in front of you, and I will proclaim my name, the LORD, in your presence. I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion."

The overall point here is that God has the right to work his plan out through whatever means he chooses.
We find in the old testament that the means was personal relationships with key people. There is nothing here about individuals chosen for salvation and others rejected.

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! 15 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.” 16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.” 18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.

Question: Why does Paul asked the questions in verse 14 in relation to what He just said in the previous passage? What is Paul's point in verses 14-18?

Renniks: His point is that God used even Israel's rebellion to bring about his plan to offer salvation to all....The overall point here is that God has the right to work his plan out through whatever means he chooses....

This is clearly a reading in the passage what you want it to say, if not, an out of context reading. Paul asked the questions in verse 14 in relation to what He just said in the previous passage. And what you say there does not make much of a connection in what Paul was pointing out from verses 1-13 regarding Israel.

In verse 14 Paul asked "What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God?". You apparently could not see what is it in what Paul had just said in the preceding verses that seems to beg this verse 14 question that Paul had to answer it in the statements following the question, which answer is in a few words is that, God is sovereign and will do according to His will and purpose. And by which Paul drives home his point yet again, that the purpose of God concerning Israel will surely not fail and will be accomplished.

Tong
R5024

 

[Renniks]

So you believe everyone in your church are saved as per corporate election? Do you even understand the meaning of the Parable of the Wheat and Tares?

Every saved person is born in different times in history. Plus, no one can become saved unless the Father "draw" him!

Believing is not the cause of salvation, rather believing is the result of salvation.

To God Be The Gloty

Wow, seriously, look up corporate election, because you don't understand the concept at all!
I have no idea what " every saved person is born at different times in history" even means?

I can find you about fifty verses confirming that belief comes before salvation if you would like.

 

[Renniks]

For Rebecca was told, “The older son will work for the younger son.” And it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.”

This refers to the two nations. When in scripture did Esau serve Jacob? He didn't. The prophecy is that Edom will serve Israel.

 

[Renniks]

The idea that Jacob was chosen for a job, as if it then was Jacob's job that the Messiah will come from his line, is way out of line and makes no sense. For such could never be a job that Jacob could have and could bring about.

Jacob was chosen as the head of Israel. You read it backwards, it's about God's faithfulness not Jacob being a great man. If Jacob had totally failed God could have worked with someone else, but God obviously knew Jacob was the one for the job.

 

[Renniks]

In verse 14 Paul asked "What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God?". You apparently could not see what is it in what Paul had just said in the preceding verses that seems to beg this verse 14 question that Paul had to answer it in the statements following the question, which answer is in a few words is that, God is sovereign and will do according to His will and purpose. And by which Paul drives home his point yet again, that the purpose of God concerning Israel

Where did I say God would not do according to his will and purpose? I just said that the overall point was that God could work out his plan by any means he chooses.
The question of whether God was righteous comes because apparently some were doubting that God was truly keeping his promises. Paul is saying, in essence, just because God didn't work in the expected way doesn't mean he hasn't been faithful. God hasn't failed because most of his people rejected him. The children of the promise are all those who believe, Jew and gentle alike.

 

[kcnalp]

Romans 9:11-13
11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls),
12 it was said to her, "The older shall serve the younger."
13 As it is written, "Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated."

 

[Renniks]

Romans 9:11-13
11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls),
12 it was said to her, "The older shall serve the younger."
13 As it is written, "Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated."

We already covered this. Did esau ever serve Jacob? No, this is talking about Israel and Edom.

 

[JunChosen]

You really don't understand your own theology? If we are irresistibly chosen for salvation, and good works, etc, then everything we do is actually God's doing.

Our fate has been decided and sealed when the Father named and elected those who are to become saved before the foundation of the world. Salvation is a done deal!!! Surprised?

The world is a big stage where we are playing out our roles. The script has been written!!!

And you already claimed that God creates evil, so that includes all evil being God's doing.

You forget that God from the beginning created the universe perfectly that everything was "good".

When natural disasters hits a country such as earthquakes, storms, covid 19...etc., it is said to be an evil thing because many die.

Perhaps you honestly didn't know that you are embracing a deterministic view of everything that happens?

That's correct! The universe and believers are anxiously waiting for the return of Jesus.!

 

[JunChosen]

We already covered this. Did esau ever serve Jacob? No, this is talking about Israel and Edom.

It is speaking of grace, the love and sovereignty of God.

 

[Renniks]

Our fate has been decided and sealed when the Father named and elected those who are to become saved before the foundation of the world. Salvation is a done deal!!! Surprised?

The world is a big stage where we are playing out our roles. The script has been written!!!




You forget that God from the beginning created the universe perfectly that everything was "good".

When natural disasters hits a country such as earthquakes, storms, covid 19...etc., it is said to be an evil thing because many die.



That's correct! The universe and believers are anxiously waiting for the return of Jesus.!

So, then, in your fatalistic system, which actually is nowhere in scripture, BTW, where the script has all been written and all my sins are caused by God, it should be obvious that if I disagree with you or mock your ideas, you have a problem with God, not me.

But, here in the real world, what we do is actually our choice. We actually choose our fate. God gives us free will to "Choose this day whom we will serve."

Natural disasters? There are no such things in your determinism. Everything is fated, remember? If I go out and kill my neighbor and steal his wife, that's what God fated me to do. I'm no more responsible for it than a squirrel is for eating acorns because that's how God made me. What an utterly despicable religion and what an evil god you have there! The God of the Bible says he hates sin. He says he tempts no one to evil and wills that all be saved. Perhaps you should meet him sometime.

 

[Tong2020]

I can find you about fifty verses confirming that belief comes before salvation if you would like.

I know you'll agree that according to scriptures, sin first entered the world and death through sin, which corrupted the world, and then the salvation of God. What is that salvation needed by man? It is obviously salvation from sin and death, from corruption.

What does faith have to do with all that?

Before the fall of Adam, Adam had faith in God. Would you agree? If not, just say so and I'll explain to you why. And before the fall, mankind (who are in Adam so to speak, i.e. his posterity, and of course including Eve), the matter of salvation (at least from sin and death and corruption) is of no concern. Would you agree?

Now, the next truth we know is that, one day in the life of Adam, he sinned. The very moment he sinned, is the very moment that he sort of lost faith in God. Should he had continued in having faith in God, he would not have eaten of the forbidden fruit. Also, the very day that Adam ate of the forbidden fruit, death reigned over him, so that, he surely will die, for God, through the commandment, had told him so.

So the salvation of God, among other things, includes the giving of faith which man had lost, the deliverance from the power of death and from out of a corrupted state, and so then the giving of life lost, even eternal life.

With regards salvation, faith does not come before salvation, as if to say that salvation comes about because of faith or faith causes one's salvation. Rather, as part of the salvation of God, faith is just one among that which God will give the man whom He saves on the onset of His salvation work.

Tong
R0525

 

[Tong2020]

This refers to the two nations. When in scripture did Esau serve Jacob? He didn't. The prophecy is that Edom will serve Israel.

In context, Paul was not talking about that, but about God's election of Jacob over Esau. Error comes about when one take the verses out of context, such as you do here. Even while it may be said that Jacob represents one nation and Esau another, such matter is irrelevant to what Paul is saying in Romans 9. Stick to the context as I did in my post #1425, 1427, 1428, and you will do well.

Tong
R0526

 

[Tong2020]

Jacob was chosen as the head of Israel. You read it backwards, it's about God's faithfulness not Jacob being a great man. If Jacob had totally failed God could have worked with someone else, but God obviously knew Jacob was the one for the job.

Jacob was not chosen as head of Israel Renniks. Jacob is Israel, whose descendants later would be known to be the nation of Israel. Jacob did not get to live to see his descendants made into the nation Israel by God, much less be chosen as the head of Israel.

You said "If Jacob had totally failed God could have worked with someone else, but God obviously knew Jacob was the one for the job." Tell us, how did Jacob accomplish the job given him as you contend?

And as I said, the job of making the prophecy concerning the Messiah to happen as prophesied is God's and could not be assigned to Jacob as you contend. Paul, in Romans 9, simply tells us concerning Jacob, that God had chosen him over Esau, to be from out of whom God will make a nation of people to be His people in keeping with His promise to Abraham, and that God's election is based not of works of Jacob and Esau, but of Him who calls, that is, God. Jacob had nothing at all to do in bringing about the making of his descendants into becoming a nation, the nation Israel nor in bringing about the promise of God to Abraham.

Tong
R0527