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marks

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No one keeps the letter of the law (Galatians 6:13, Galatians 3:22, Romans 3:23).

If you can testify that you wear tzizit and tallit and tefilin; and/or blow a trumpet on every new moon; then I will believe that perhaps you are complicit in obeying the letter of the law; while there are some 609 more commandments in the OT that are not yet taken into account.

Do I deceive myself by the understanding that I am not saved through keeping the law? For it is a biblical understanding (see Galatians 2:16, Romans 3:20).

If anyone is going to be saved through keeping the law, they must keep it perfectly from conception into eternity (Galatians 3:10, James 2:10, Matthew 5:48).

But Paul wrote to us under the inspiration of the Holy Ghost, that we are delivered from the law so that we are no longer bound by the letter but are obedient to the spirit of what is written (Romans 7:6).

I agree that this is according to the letter for the most part.

However, in certain cases (such as if I were told by the Lord to heal someone on the sabbath by telling them to take up their bed and walk; in which case I would be violating the letter of the sabbath), the spirit of the law supersedes the letter. It would be love to do what I mentioned in (); but it would also be a violation of the letter of the sabbath.

And Jesus is our example of this in John chapter 5.
Not only can no one actually keep the letter of the Law of Moses, no one can. And even if it were possible, and it's not, but even if it were possible, I don't believe anyone actually does.

For one thing, no one can tithe, and no one can offer a sacrifice. So right there it all goes to pieces. But even if there were still the levitical priesthood serving in a temple, I don't believe that there is any one of us who loves God supremely at all times. That's the first commandment, and, from what I've seen, I don't know anyone, including myself, who keeps it at all times.

Much love!
 
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Heart2Soul

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Not only can no one actually keep the letter of the Law of Moses, no one can. And even if it were possible, and it's not, but even if it were possible, I don't believe anyone actually does.

For one thing, no one can tithe, and no one can offer a sacrifice. So right there it all goes to pieces. But even if there were still the levitical priesthood serving in a temple, I don't believe that there is any one of us who loves God supremely at all times. That's the first commandment, and, from what I've seen, I don't know anyone, including myself, who keeps it at all times.

Much love!
Amen....where so many get it wrong is to fail to see "God" as a "Father".
And as our Father He is compassionate and forgiving of our weaknesses.
Those here who are parents should comprehend what the love of a father is like....(if they have one...or even a loving father)....and our Heavenly Father says He loves us more than we can comprehend....
When we got saved and born again we became His children and as a Father it is His joy to teach us and raise us to walk in righteousness....and the only way to do that is to be the righteousness of Him THROUGH Christ Jesus.
 

quietthinker

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This thread is not glorifying God in any way whatsoever....
Please tone it down or I will close it.
H2S....it's the eternal struggle....light against darkness. Transparency against fudge.
Although there is conflict on this thread it does serve to highlight the two primary positions. Those who strive for truth and clarity by being courageous in being honest with themselves and those who use any square on the checkerboard if they perceive it suits their advantage.

I think 'nice' is not appropriate when matters of such importance are at stake......'nice' is the realm of the 'religious'; truth and self honesty that of genuine seekers.

And I might add, God has let sin come to its full ripeness so that the whole inhabited universe can see its odious results.....he could have nipped it in the bud at its inception but that would forever have left doubt in the minds of all the living and the question hanging 'did Lucifer really have a point?'

I think the same principle could apply here.
 

Heart2Soul

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H2S....it's the eternal struggle....light against darkness. Transparency against fudge.
Although there is conflict on this thread it does serve to highlight the two primary positions. Those who strive for truth and clarity by being courageous in being honest with themselves and those who use any square on the checkerboard if they perceive it suits their advantage.

I think 'nice' is not appropriate when matters of such importance are at stake......'nice' is the realm of the 'religious'; truth and self honesty that of genuine seekers.

And I might add, God has let sin come to its full ripeness so that the whole inhabited universe can see its odious results.....he could have nipped it in the bud at its inception but that would forever have left doubt in the minds of all the living and the question hanging 'did Lucifer really have a point?'

I think the same principle could apply here.
Sorry but I disagree...when the posts become flaming, goading and attacking a members character then it is breaking forum rules.
 

justbyfaith

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Can't there legitimately be two?

Check out John 3:5
5Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.


I always believed WATER meant natural child birth.
Now I'm not so sure --- many scholars believe it means baptism.

Can't both be proven to be correct? Can we choose? There are verses that support each.
Must log off now....tomorrow.

If "water" is referring to natural childbirth in John 3:5, then it is not referring to baptism. And likewise, if it is referring to baptism, it is not referring to natural childbirth.

One of these interpretations is the correct one; and the other one isn't. Personally, I believe that it is referring to baptism. What would be the point of Jesus saying that in order to be born a second time you must be born a first time? Isn't that a given already? He would be being redundant.

You haven't answered the question jbf.....you've just repeated.

No, I did answer it....I just didn't answer it the way you wanted me to. To be clear with you, I don't believe what the Mormons believe about the order of Melchizedec...as a matter of fact, I don't even know what they believe about it...I just know that they have a doctrine on the issue. What I said about the order of Melchizedec is what I am aware of in knowledge about the order of Melchizedec, based on Hebrews chapter 7....if that is not good enough for you, then go buy a car.

I don't believe that there is any one of us who loves God supremely at all times. That's the first commandment, and, from what I've seen, I don't know anyone, including myself, who keeps it at all times.

Actually, that is one commandment that I know that I always keep in my new nature....as this love has been given to me as a gift (Romans 5:5). Even when sin within me sins (Romans 7:17, Romans 7:20), the love of the Lord is always present in my heart as it is shed abroad in my heart through the Holy Ghost. I don't always live according to that love; but that love is always present in the center of my heart.
 
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marks

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Amen....where so many get it wrong is to fail to see "God" as a "Father".
And as our Father He is compassionate and forgiving of our weaknesses.
Those here who are parents should comprehend what the love of a father is like....(if they have one...or even a loving father)....and our Heavenly Father says He loves us more than we can comprehend....
When we got saved and born again we became His children and as a Father it is His joy to teach us and raise us to walk in righteousness....and the only way to do that is to be the righteousness of Him THROUGH Christ Jesus.
There is such a focus on sin, are we sinning, can we? Do we? Are we allowed to? So much confusion, but I think the real confusion is over holiness.

We all have some sort of standard by which we see ourselves as acceptable to God. For one person, it's that they keep the 10 commandments as they understand them, for another its that Jesus fulfilled all righteousness on their behalf, another will add that God has begotten us as righteous children, and one will say, if you sin, you aren't His child! In many of us, I think, there lurks that idea of, if I'm bad, He won't have me.

The remedy for the one is, I'll try my very best to keep the Law, and He'll accept me, because He'll see my heart, He'll know how much I'm trying. Another will say, I'm not committing Those Kinds of sins, so I must be OK!

I think something we can fail to appreciate, how great is God's holiness, and what it means to be accepted by Him. His holiness is a fire that consumes all that isn't fire. We cannot come boldly to His throne without holiness.

We talk about a "pretend" holiness, I don't think God pretends anything. I believe our Creator is a God of truth. And so that we could have a full and complete relationship with Him, He has removed all of our sin.

Consider if He hadn't! If our Holy God had not made us holy! He is a consuming fire.

Much love!
 
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marks

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I think the same principle could apply here.
Two problems with that. One is this assumes the correctness of "your" position, the other your "right" to treat however you deem "necessary" those who oppose you.

Much love!
 

marks

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How would "I keep the 10 Commandments" not be a pretend holiness? After all, no one does perfectly. Having broken them, how do you then achieve holiness?

And if you achieve holiness outside of keeping and breaking the commandment, then that is the way we attain to holiness, isn't it?

Much love!
 

marks

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Actually, that is one commandment that I know that I always keep in my new nature....as this love has been given to me as a gift (Romans 5:5). Even when sin within me sins (Romans 7:17, Romans 7:20), the love of the Lord is always present in my heart as it is shed abroad in my heart through the Holy Ghost. I don't always live according to that love; but that love is always present in the center of my heart.
I believe this is one of the ways we know we are born of the Father, that there is now something inside of us that doesn't always agree with what we are doing or thinking. By learning to align our minds and hearts with that new part we become like Christ Who has come to live inside.

Much Love!
 

Nancy

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I believe we will pay for our sins if Jesus got us out of them and we go back knowing better. For example, suppose you are a smoker and feel led to stop smoking. I'm not saying smoking is a sin, mind, but just using it as an example. I knew a man who gave up cigarettes easily when he became a Christian. He never felt the urge to smoke again. I think if he had decided to do it again and got hooked again, Jesus may not have helped him with that problem again. If he wanted to stop, maybe he'd have to do it on his own.

If Jesus is willing to bear our burdens when we are too weak to do for ourselves, can we deliberately return to the sins that created those burdens and expect Jesus to bear them again and again? I don't think that's the deal (or covenant) we make with Jesus. If we try to take advantage of Jesus' generosity, we may find ourselves in the same fix as the unfaithful servant whose debts had been cancelled. They got put back on the books. That may sound astonishing to some people, but Jesus said that the sins we have been forgiven of can be reinstated.

Matthew 18:33 Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?
34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.


People may want a free lunch, but I don't think it works like that. If Jesus does us a favor, we can help make the world a better place by doing favors for others. It is another astonishing doctrine, but Jesus expects us to do more him and for our fellow man than he does for us. He loves it when people do that because then he can reward them later for those good deeds. They have used the gifts God gave them well. They couldn't have done anything good if God hadn't given them the gifts and the power to use them; but God expects us to use our gifts well.

Matthew 25:26 His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:
27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.


I have a third doctrine some may find astonishing. People opine that God alone is going to make them into "sons of God." Hardly. God gives us power to become the sons of God.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

It is a wonderful thing when men and women do this. It proves that God was right from the very beginning to give man dominion over the earth. Satan was wrong if he thought man was a worthless creation.

But what do you do with someone who is advanced spiritually to the point where he has been given the power to become a son of God and he rebels against God and sets himself as his own god? Such a person was surely filled with the Holy Spirit -- but the Spirit fled when he set himself up as his own god. I cannot see any forgiveness or pardon for this, and I doubt that person could pay for that sin himself. He basically told the Spirit to get lost. I doubt he could get himself in the frame of mind to repent or to accept responsibility -- he's spiritually insane. Yes, I believe in a "beast of the water" that will arrive some day on the scene as described in Revelation; but I think there have been people, less capable than he will be of performing miracles, who have sinned the same way. What is the tragedy? Perhaps they craved to be immortal and then craved to return to sin after receiving immortality? It's to the outer darkness for them. Have you noticed that the three times the outer darkness is mentioned (in Matthew), it's God's unfaithful servants being punished so?

They have the immortality they craved. What is it worth? They'd be better off completely out of existence if you ask me. God is not mocked.

It's is difficult to imagine anyone tasting of God's goodness, turning their back on Him. I know it does happen but, it just doesn't compute! Any of us could fall into it, I'm sure - if we are not walking by the Spirit...
 
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quietthinker

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Sorry but I disagree...when the posts become flaming, goading and attacking a members character then it is breaking forum rules.
From my perspective H2S it serves to see what the participants are made of
.....whose spirit motivates them.
As much as I dislike those characteristics you mentioned above I figure, a quick and relatively painless way of getting a measure.....otherwise how else would one get one?
Putting ones best foot forward when there are no contrary forces is no test of character....any pretender can play that game and they do.....it is when a rope has weight on it that determines whether it will hold or no.
 

quietthinker

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No, I did answer it....I just didn't answer it the way you wanted me to. To be clear with you, I don't believe what the Mormons believe about the order of Melchizedec...as a matter of fact, I don't even know what they believe about it...I just know that they have a doctrine on the issue. What I said about the order of Melchizedec is what I am aware of in knowledge about the order of Melchizedec, based on Hebrews chapter 7....if that is not good enough for you, then go buy a car.
welllll, I don't really need a car my friend and you are entitled to your opinion yet all I can say is what you deem an answer carries no persuasive element regarding what you are talking about.
I might point this out....you don't believe what the Mormons believe yet you don't know what the Mormons believe......hmmmmmm right!
 

mjrhealth

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Interesting that Paul should note that their 'end will be according to their works'.....hmmmm
Only to those not in Him. God cannot judge a man twice for the same sin, either He has forgiven us or He has not, If He has not than Christs death was purely a con and fabrication and a lie, but men seem determind to be judged by there worthless works as if it brings them some honor.
 

justbyfaith

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welllll, I don't really need a car my friend and you are entitled to your opinion yet all I can say is what you deem an answer carries no persuasive element regarding what you are talking about.
I might point this out....you don't believe what the Mormons believe yet you don't know what the Mormons believe......hmmmmmm right!
Accusing me of being a liar is unbecoming, but I forgive you for doing so.

Go sell your car if you don't need one; and go around walking for the rest of your life.
 
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Prayer Warrior

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This thread is not glorifying God in any way whatsoever....
Please tone it down or I will close it.
I’m shocked to see this comment by you. I believe that my comments and others in this thread glorify Him. Is this how things will be with CB? Please deal with the perpetrators and don't punish all of us....
 

justbyfaith

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welllll, I don't really need a car my friend and you are entitled to your opinion yet all I can say is what you deem an answer carries no persuasive element regarding what you are talking about.

I think that maybe you are just unable to understand what I am talking about.

The fact of the matter is that Jesus can violate the letter of the sabbath day law and still not be a sinner; because as High Priest according to the order of Melchizedec, He brought about a change in law (Hebrews 7:12) from the letter to the spirit (Romans 7:6). So then, the letter of the law does not condemn Him as a sinner even though He violated it.

And also, His coming as High Priest was not after a carnal commandment but after the power of an endless life (Hebrews 7:16).

In other words, Jesus was and is God and He was and is the Lord of the sabbath day; so His violation of the letter of that law did not condemn Him as a sinner since His endless life cannot be brought to an end by His violation of the letter of that law.
 
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Heart2Soul

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I’m shocked to see this comment by you. I believe that my comments in this thread glorify Him. Is this how things will be with CB?
This thread does not bring God Glory....and it has nothing to do with your comments.
 
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Prayer Warrior

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This thread does not bring God Glory....and it has nothing to do with your comments.
You said that nothing in this thread was glorifying God. That is what I was responding to. We have a nation that is becoming tyrannical--ordering people to stay in their houses.... Let's not let that spirit enter this forum as well. That's all I'm asking.

Correction: You said the thread was not glorifying God in any way. I think of all comments as the thread.
 
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quietthinker

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How would "I keep the 10 Commandments" not be a pretend holiness? After all, no one does perfectly. Having broken them, how do you then achieve holiness?

And if you achieve holiness outside of keeping and breaking the commandment, then that is the way we attain to holiness, isn't it?

Much love!
The objective is not to prove anything to any human being regarding Commandment keeping.....the objective is to live healthy functional lives that glorify God not dysfunctional lives that live a pretence.

It is the Law that serves as a mirror. As Paul says, he would not have known what it was to covet unless the Law had pointed it out to him. Pretending the Law doesn't exist or is no longer relevant (whatever language one wants to use to convey the same meaning) is the epitome of dysfunction.

Holiness at its base is functionality.