Saved Or Predestined ???

[Tong2020]

Coming from hearing Gods word doesn't' mean everyone who hears God word has faith, obvious, so where's the dividing line.

What Paul said in Romans 10:17, "So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." was only to tell us how faith comes to the man, which is what I was saying to you. Paul, nor I was not saying that everyone to whom the gospel is preached end up having faith. Among those to whom the gospel is preached, there are those appointed for eternal life and there are those who are not. And no man knows who the appointed are, not even Paul, but only God. And so, among them to whom the gospel is preached, as many as had been appointed to eternal life will believe or will have faith.

You claim God just gives some faith and not others, but if faith is something we have to ask God to help us with, we obviously have something to do with the process.

Your reasoning there is not necessarily correct. There are a lot of things the believer could ask of God other than for God to increase their faith, such as understanding. What is reasonable to say is that whatever that we ask of God is something that we don't have or something that we lack. And when God gives what we ask, we would have it. And we can't say that we have something to do with having it, other than that we asked God for it. To say that we have something to do with the process, other than that, is obviously coming from ungodly pride and selfish glorification.

You can split hairs about what part if God's and what part is ours, but there's no denying it takes both to produce and maintain our faith and we can also lose faith, so one can't claim God is losing it for us!

How faith comes to man is a different matter from being faithful or continuing to be faithful.

With regards continuing to be faithful, no man can't claim to continue to be faithful to God, if only on and by his own will and ability. For it had been shown that the kind of Adam fails and all have failed. Even the then sinless and uncorrupted Eve and Adam, failed. Needless to say, without help outside of himself, there is no man who could continue to be faithful to God. And only God can help him on that matter. That is part of God's salvation my friend.

Tong
R0661

 

[Tong2020]

I just told you. Yes, both Christ's Atonement and our faith have to exist for salvation. I don't see what the issue is? The atonement is for their sins, same as it's for ours. It's only applied to the believers.

That's right, you don't see. As I said, even in our long past exchanges on atonement, you really do not understand what atonement is. I have explained that to you then and you still understood it not. And I don't think, a repeat explanation would change anything at this point in time. I could only pray, in the meantime, to God to give you understanding on that.

Tong
R0662

 

[Tong2020]

I pick option three. He was sent to save those who are willing. One becomes his, one is not born his person.

Firstly, you were not asked to pick any option as there are no options presented in the first place. But you were asked to honestly answer the simple question, as follows: Was Jesus sent to save all (each and every man) mankind or only His people? I don't know what is the problem with you that you don't seem to know how to have a proper dialogue with another.

So, let me see what your post seems to suggest is your answer to the question. Having avoided it, it seems to say to me that you clearly don't believe in the scriptures that says that Jesus came to save His people, the Israel of God. Rather, you believe in something else.

Tong
R0663

 

[Tong2020]

So, you just answered by not answering.

I answered by showing you that your question is flawed, in that, it ask something about faith, for which faith is not.

One can not refuse if it is something God alone produces in a person. Which makes it irresistible and you are teaching fatalism.

One cannot refuse and cannot accept, something that which, in the first place, is neither had by acceptance nor not had by refusal.

I have given you an example before to give you an idea how faith is like. But apparently you still don't seem to have a grasp of the idea. So let me repeat that here.

Romans 5:3 And not only that, but we also glory in tribulations, knowing that tribulation produces perseverance; 4 and perseverance, character; and character, hope.

You can see in that verse, that perseverance, character, and hope, does not come from within the man, but from outside the man. In this case and in relation to the Christian regarding the tribulation which they are going through in those days and times, Paul tells us that such tribulations is that which produces perseverance, and perseverance produces character, and character produces hope. Clearly perseverance, character and hope is produced inside the man (not by the man) by something outside of him. Faith towards God is like so. It is produced in the man by something outside of him.

Now, having said that again, I ask the following questions for you to help you grasp the idea:

1. Was perseverance, character, and hope, produced by man or by the tribulation?
2. Was perseverance, character, and hope, something that could be refused and accepted or not?
3. Was the production of perseverance, character, and hope in them, irresistible or not?

Tong
R0664

 

[Tong2020]

Jesus says he who seeks will find, and the one that knocks will have the door opened.
Do you think God will withhold knowledge from the one who is honestly seeking? Do you limit God to rely on men physically preaching only or does the Spirit work in other ways too?

My question was "What can you do to have faith, if you don't get to hear His words?" So, once again you have evaded.

Now let me address what you say there.
It is God who love and seek first.
Also, no one who have no knowledge of God, at least of His existence, can seek Him.
Scriptures says that no one seeks God. So that, if there be anyone who seeks God, it is because God had sought and found him first and had given him knowledge about Himself that the one could then seek Him.
What Jesus says there, He said to them, the people of Israel, who knows something about God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to them by the prophets. What Jesus said there could only apply to them and those who knows something about God.

As to your questions, I will answer them to demonstrate to you how to have a proper dialogue and that, questions asked to the other respectfully deserves an answer.

You asked "Do you think God will withhold knowledge from the one who is honestly seeking?" I believe God will not, but only according to His will, purpose, pleasure, and for His glory, and in His way and in His time.

You asked "Do you limit God to rely on men physically preaching only or does the Spirit work in other ways too?" Of course not. God does not rely on men in the accomplishment of His will and purpose. He uses His creatures, but not rely on them, in the accomplishment of His purposes and intents. He accomplishes His will and purpose by Himself according to His wisdom and power and in His way and in His time.

Tong
R0665

 

[Tong2020]

Yes, but not entirely. See, it's not so simple. I would fall into the arminian category, but again, that category is wider than Arminius' specific beliefs. It depends what you mean by arminian.

I believe you don't follow Arminius, that is why I find it proper and respectful to not identify you with him or label you as being an Arminian. I believe you consider yourself a follower of Christ, that is why I respectfully identify you to be a Christian.

My point is, it is about respect and being proper that I asked you to refrain from tagging me a calvinist, or somehow identify me with them, or assume I follow and believe his writings and teachings. Let's just stick to what each one of us says we believe and not go beyond that, to include what Calvin or Arminius say they believe. They are not part of our conversation. Besides, they are no more alive to defend themselves, that it would be unfair to talk about what they say knowing that they cannot defend against any objection we may have against what they said.

Tong
R0666

 

[Renniks]

What Paul said in Romans 10:17, "So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." was only to tell us how faith comes to the man, which is what I was saying to you. Paul, nor I was not saying that everyone to whom the gospel is preached end up having faith. Among those to whom the gospel is preached, there are those appointed for eternal life and there are those who are not. And no man knows who the appointed are, not even Paul, but only God. And so, among them to whom the gospel is preached, as many as had been appointed to eternal life will believe or will have faith.

And yet people have been convicted directly by God for centuries and then sought out the truth about him and found the gospel. So, your formula is not quite so simple. Anyone can be appointed for eternal life if he is currently a seeker.

Your reasoning there is not necessarily correct. There are a lot of things the believer could ask of God other than for God to increase their faith, such as understanding. What is reasonable to say is that whatever that we ask of God is something that we don't have or something that we lack. And when God gives what we ask, we would have it. And we can't say that we have something to do with having it, other than that we asked God for it. To say that we have something to do with the process, other than that, is obviously coming from ungodly pride and selfish glorification.

Asking is doing something to increase our faith! Asking means we do have something to do with having it. Again, you are trying to make it all about God giving us something and at the same time claiming we have to do something to gain it. Make up your mind. Now, as far as pride and self-glorification, that's just a silly strawman. Does it glorify me to humble myself and admit I need help? Does it glorify me if I believe in free will? Believing in a god of fatalism is easy. Believing that I can choose wrong and fail God and even leave the One I love is hard. Believing that my loved ones can fall away from the faith and that God will not force them to remain is hard, but it's reality.

How faith comes to man is a different matter from being faithful or continuing to be faithful.

With regards continuing to be faithful, no man can't claim to continue to be faithful to God, if only on and by his own will and ability. For it had been shown that the kind of Adam fails and all have failed. Even the then sinless and uncorrupted Eve and Adam, failed. Needless to say, without help outside of himself, there is no man who could continue to be faithful to God. And only God can help him on that matter. That is part of God's salvation my friend.

Tong
R0661

Having faith to start with and continuing to have faith both require the same thing, yes, relying on God! I never said we can continue to be faithful by our own ability. We have to ask continually, we have to rely on him always. This is what I mean by cooperating with God and that faith isn't just us or just God's doing, it's both. I don't know what you mean by God's salvation. God doesn't need saving, we do. It's not God's salvation, it's our salvation provided by God if we continue to walk with him.

 

[Renniks]

Firstly, you were not asked to pick any option as there are no options presented in the first place. But you were asked to honestly answer the simple question, as follows: Was Jesus sent to save all (each and every man) mankind or only His people?

That is two different options, unless you are a universalist.

 

[Renniks]

You can see in that verse, that perseverance, character, and hope, does not come from within the man, but from outside the man. In this case and in relation to the Christian regarding the tribulation which they are going through in those days and times, Paul tells us that such tribulations is that which produces perseverance, and perseverance produces character, and character produces hope. Clearly perseverance, character and hope is produced inside the man (not by the man) by something outside of him. Faith towards God is like so. It is produced in the man by something outside of him.

Not. That's absurd. Tribulations can make you bitter or better. Paul tells us what they produce in someone that follows God. It's not automatic. Does everyone know who experiences trials become more patient and hopeful? No, often just the opposite. So what makes the difference? It's what we decide to allow to rule us, God or our trials.

 

[Renniks]

. Was perseverance, character, and hope, produced by man or by the tribulation?
2. Was perseverance, character, and hope, something that could be refused and accepted or not?
3. Was the production of perseverance, character, and hope in them, irresistible or not

1. Yes
2. Absolutely.
3. Absolutely not.

 

[Renniks]

Now let me address what you say there.
It is God who love and seek first.
Also, no one who have no knowledge of God, at least of His existence, can seek Him.
Scriptures says that no one seeks God.

Actually it doesn't. That quote comes from the Psalms, where the righteous and evil doers are being contrasted.

Do all these evildoers know nothing?

They devour my people as though eating bread;
they never call on the Lord.
5 But there they are, overwhelmed with dread,
for God is present in the company of the righteous.

So the " no one's" are those who choose evil, not the God seekers.

 

[Renniks]

So that, if there be anyone who seeks God, it is because God had sought and found him first and had given him knowledge about Himself that the one could then seek Him.

Everyone has been given enough knowledge to seek God... through the natural world. So that they are without excuse. God's very nature has been revealed to us through nature.

 

[brian100]

He might select two people to fall in love and that love saves them. Its how they meet is arranged by God.

Maybe he picks a Catholic man to save them. . . say she was a pole dancer or worse.. Getting us to meet (say in school). And this guy me would still love her. That would imply predestination. Why? Because love is blind when God select you..

And of course my life was probably just as bad, but the love God gave us conquers all.

You would have to assume that Heaven is for 2 hearts.. man and wife. Or Adam and Eve.

 

[Tong2020]

I said: ↑
What Paul said in Romans 10:17, "So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." was only to tell us how faith comes to the man, which is what I was saying to you. Paul, nor I was not saying that everyone to whom the gospel is preached end up having faith. Among those to whom the gospel is preached, there are those appointed for eternal life and there are those who are not. And no man knows who the appointed are, not even Paul, but only God. And so, among them to whom the gospel is preached, as many as had been appointed to eternal life will believe or will have faith.

And yet people have been convicted directly by God for centuries and then sought out the truth about him and found the gospel. So, your formula is not quite so simple. Anyone can be appointed for eternal life if he is currently a seeker.

You said ".....people have been convicted directly by God for centuries and then sought out the truth about him and found the gospel."? Please show proof.

It is God who have appointed people for eternal life in accordance to His entire divine nature and being.

Acts 13:48 Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.

Tong
R0667

 

[Tong2020]

I said: ↑
Your reasoning there is not necessarily correct. There are a lot of things the believer could ask of God other than for God to increase their faith, such as understanding. What is reasonable to say is that whatever that we ask of God is something that we don't have or something that we lack. And when God gives what we ask, we would have it. And we can't say that we have something to do with having it, other than that we asked God for it. To say that we have something to do with the process, other than that, is obviously coming from ungodly pride and selfish glorification.

Asking is doing something to increase our faith! Asking means we do have something to do with having it. Again, you are trying to make it all about God giving us something and at the same time claiming we have to do something to gain it. Make up your mind. Now, as far as pride and self-glorification, that's just a silly strawman. Does it glorify me to humble myself and admit I need help? Does it glorify me if I believe in free will? Believing in a god of fatalism is easy. Believing that I can choose wrong and fail God and even leave the One I love is hard. Believing that my loved ones can fall away from the faith and that God will not force them to remain is hard, but it's reality.

Why ask if you say that faith comes from you? If faith comes from oneself, the increase then comes from him and not from anyone else.

I was not saying that humbling oneself and asking God for help is that which is ungodly pride and selfish glorification. Rather, this one is: to say that we have something to do with the increase of faith, other than ask for God to increase it, is obviously coming from ungodly pride and selfish glorification."

Read carefully what one post.

Tong
R0668

 

[Tong2020]

I said: ↑
How faith comes to man is a different matter from being faithful or continuing to be faithful.

With regards continuing to be faithful, no man can't claim to continue to be faithful to God, if only on and by his own will and ability. For it had been shown that the kind of Adam fails and all have failed. Even the then sinless and uncorrupted Eve and Adam, failed. Needless to say, without help outside of himself, there is no man who could continue to be faithful to God. And only God can help him on that matter. That is part of God's salvation my friend.

Having faith to start with and continuing to have faith both require the same thing, yes, relying on God! I never said we can continue to be faithful by our own ability. We have to ask continually, we have to rely on him always. This is what I mean by cooperating with God and that faith isn't just us or just God's doing, it's both. I don't know what you mean by God's salvation. God doesn't need saving, we do. It's not God's salvation, it's our salvation provided by God if we continue to walk with him.

You said "I never said we can continue to be faithful by our own ability." And so, if you can't, how could you? And if and when a man continued to be faithful to God, like Abraham, please tell us, how did he? It clearly all boils down to the truth that it is God who saves and that salvation is the work of God and not of man.

You said "I don't know what you mean by God's salvation." I thought that since it is obvious that salvation could not be referring to God, that you understood that I was referring to God's work of saving the kind of Adam, that is, mankind. I am happy that you ask for clarification this time, instead of responding without understanding what I wrote, as you have shown to do most of the time.

Tong
R0669

 

[brian100]

Jesus said to Peter only God told you this ...you have not learned this from man. So God has to pick you?

 

[Tong2020]

I said: ↑

Romans 5:3 And not only that, but we also glory in tribulations, knowing that tribulation produces perseverance; 4 and perseverance, character; and character, hope.

You can see in that verse, that perseverance, character, and hope, does not come from within the man, but from outside the man. In this case and in relation to the Christian regarding the tribulation which they are going through in those days and times, Paul tells us that such tribulations is that which produces perseverance, and perseverance produces character, and character produces hope. Clearly perseverance, character and hope is produced inside the man (not by the man) by something outside of him. Faith towards God is like so. It is produced in the man by something outside of him.

Not. That's absurd. Tribulations can make you bitter or better. Paul tells us what they produce in someone that follows God. It's not automatic. Does everyone know who experiences trials become more patient and hopeful? No, often just the opposite. So what makes the difference? It's what we decide to allow to rule us, God or our trials.

Read slowly and carefully what I've written in my post. There is no reason to rush, so that you don't miss my point. It's not what tribulation produce, but that, it is that which produces, which is outside of man. And such as may be produced in the man is such as perseverance. And faith towards God my friend is produced in the man like so.

Tong
R0670

 

[Tong2020]

I said: ↑
1. Was perseverance, character, and hope, produced by man or by the tribulation?
2. Was perseverance, character, and hope, something that could be refused and accepted or not?
3. Was the production of perseverance, character, and hope in them, irresistible or not

1. Yes
2. Absolutely.
3. Absolutely not.

On #1, why is your answer yes to a question that is not answerable by a yes or no? With regards #2 & #3, it is clear now that you can't seem to tell the difference between things that aren't had by acceptance nor not had by refusal, and things which are.

Let me try to explain further. Have you been in love? I'm sure you had and perhaps still are. Is that something that you can accept to have or refuse to not have? Or is it something you can't explain that which seems to you is just produced in you, by something outside of yourself? The answers to the questions are known to those who had been in love. Faith is kind of like that ~ produced inside of the man by and from outside himself, which is not something that he can accept to have or refuse to not have, and is something that which eventually moves him.

Tong
R0671

 

[Tong2020]

I said: ↑
Now let me address what you say there.
It is God who love and seek first.
Also, no one who have no knowledge of God, at least of His existence, can seek Him.
Scriptures says that no one seeks God.

Actually it doesn't. That quote comes from the Psalms, where the righteous and evil doers are being contrasted.

Do all these evildoers know nothing?

They devour my people as though eating bread;
they never call on the Lord.
5 But there they are, overwhelmed with dread,
for God is present in the company of the righteous.

So the " no one's" are those who choose evil, not the God seekers.

I can see now that you suddenly seem to appeal to qualifying words to get to their real meaning, when you strongly refuse to acknowledge and apply that for the word "all", in the verses that says that Christ died for "all".

In Romans 3:9, Paul said that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin. And in connection to that truth, Paul said in the very next verse "As it is written: “There is none righteous, no, not one; There is none who understands; There is none who seeks after God." In taking reference to that, Paul was out to support what He just said prior, that is, that all, both Jews and Greeks are under sin.

Now, I ask, do you believe there was ever a man, except Jesus, who is without sin? And do you believe that a sinner could be said to be righteous (of course, in the strict sense of the word)? Now, when scriptures says for instance that Noah is righteous, do you understand what scriptures meant by that, knowing that Noah is a sinner himself?

Tong
R0672