Saved Or Predestined ???

[Renniks]

It's simple really Renniks. "Doing" is not the same as "coming from". That's why even any friend of yours could point that out to you.

If the faith is coming from God and I can do nothing to accept it, then obviously God is doing everything while I do nothing.

 

[Renniks]

Did God foresee that Jesus would do to Paul what He did in the road to Damascus so that Paul would believe? Of course that is what God foresaw, for that is what happened, right? So, how could you say then that God foresaw that Paul will believe so that it becomes the basis of God choosing Paul, when what is foreseen is exactly the very fact that God had chosen him?

Because it's not an either\or. Gods actions are one part of the equation and Paul's belief another part. God chose Judas too, but he did not cause Judas to betray Jesus, for example.

 

[Renniks]

How about you, are you an Arminian?

I am essentially arminian in my beliefs, although I don't claim to believe everything Arminias did. Arminian or Calvinist as just labels to give us an overall understanding of where we fall on these issues.

 

[Renniks]

If you believe that man produces faith, sorry to say that you got it all wrong sir. Faith is not produced by man sir. It is produced by God. It is given by God. It comes to man by hearing the word of God. So, faith comes to the man to whom God would have His words be heard.

Coming from hearing Gods word doesn't' mean everyone who hears God word has faith, obvious, so where's the dividing line. You claim God just gives some faith and not others, but if faith is something we have to ask God to help us with, we obviously have something to do with the process. You can split hairs about what part if God's and what part is ours, but there's no denying it takes both to produce and maintain our faith and we can also lose faith, so one can't claim God is losing it for us!

 

[Tong2020]

16You did not choose Me, but I chose you. And I appointed you to go and bear fruit— fruit that will remain— so that whatever you ask the Father in My name, He will give you.

This was spoken to all the disciples. They were all appointed to go and bear fruit, and as far as we know, even Judas did bear fruit, until he fell by listening to the devil.

You must realize that before Jesus said that, this is what happened:

John 13:1 Now before the Feast of the Passover, when Jesus knew that His hour had come that He should depart from this world to the Father, having loved His own who were in the world, He loved them to the end. 2 And supper being ended, the devil having already put it into the heart of Judas Iscariot, Simon’s son, to betray Him,

Of course Jesus knew of this at the very instant Satan entered Judas. So we must, from that point on, take this context to what Jesus will be saying concerning the 12 apostles. Jesus said concerning them:

John 13:18 “I do not speak concerning all of you. I know whom I have chosen; but that the Scripture may be fulfilled, ‘He who eats bread with Me has lifted up his heel against Me.’

Now, you referred to what Jesus said in John 15:16, which is at the time that Satan had already entered Judas, the son of perdition. Let me quote that verse here:

John 15:16 You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you.

You misuse scriptures there, saying and believing that they were all appointed to go and bear fruit, even Judas, the son of perdition. Are you aware what scriptures says of Judas, even while he is numbered among the twelve? Scriptures says "he was a thief, and had the money box; and he used to take what was put in it". Clearly, Judas could not be included among them. If you believe otherwise, then you also believe that the son of perdition was also appointed to go and bear fruit and his fruit should remain. I ask, did Judas bear fruit? If you believe he did, what fruit did he bear and that remained? I ask, do you really believe that Judas, the son of perdition, was included among them, to whom Jesus says whatever they would ask of the Father in His name, will be given him?

And Jesus prayed concerning them:

John 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.

Clearly, the 11 were given by the Father to the Son for salvation and to be Jesus' witnesses and apostles. And while Judas Iscariot was also given by the Father to the Son, obviously it is for a purpose, but not for salvation. Judas, as Jesus refers to him, is the "son of perdition". Jesus could have saved him, but He did not. Read and realize the part of Judas:

Matthew 26:20 When evening had come, He sat down with the twelve. 21 Now as they were eating, He said, “Assuredly, I say to you, one of you will betray Me.” 22 And they were exceedingly sorrowful, and each of them began to say to Him, “Lord, is it I?” 23 He answered and said, “He who dipped his hand with Me in the dish will betray Me. 24 The Son of Man indeed goes just as it is written of Him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been good for that man if he had not been born.” 25 Then Judas, who was betraying Him, answered and said, “Rabbi, is it I?” He said to him, “You have said it.”

Judas, even while Jesus clearly have made Himself clear that He knows of what he is about to do, even telling him to his face that he is the one who will betray him and what would become of him who betrays the Son of man, it is as though Judas did not hear a thing and as though it is of no matter to him.

John 13:26 Jesus answered, “It is he to whom I shall give a piece of bread when I have dipped it.” And having dipped the bread, He gave it to Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon. 27 Now after the piece of bread, Satan entered him. Then Jesus said to him, “What you do, do quickly.”

Jesus, instead of doing something about it to save Judas, He even told him to do it quickly.

Ponder on that.

Tong
R0653

 

[Tong2020]

Those who came before were saved by faith in the promise of a coming messiah. Christ's atonement saved those, just as it saves the ones who believed after his resurrection.

You said those who came before were saved by faith. At the same time, you said Christ's atonement saved those, just as it saves the ones who believed after his resurrection. Does atonement save? You, as was in your past posts, show that you really do not understand what atonement is.

And because of that, you really did not answer the question Renniks.

What is the atonement for concerning those men and women who were already in the grave before the cross?

Tong
R0654

 

[Tong2020]

You are confused. Jesus was sent to save his people and who are those people? Whosoever will believe! Again you are confusing being given salvation with being given grace. All are given grace, only those who respond with belief are given salvation and become the elect.

I am not at all confused, but you are. When scriptures says that Jesus was sent to save His people, it is clear then that He was not sent to save each and every man.

Try to honestly answer this simple question:

Was Jesus sent to save all (each and every man) mankind or only His people?

Tong
R0655

 

[Tong2020]

Yet you keep insisting God just gives some faith and not others. If this is the case, can one refuse the faith that God gives him?

What I was saying is that faith comes to a person by hearing God's words. And so, to whomever the word of God does not come or to whomever is not able to hear God's words, or whomever does not hear God's word, he don't get to have faith.

As to your question "can one refuse the faith that God gives him?" While faith is said to be given by God, it is not something that is rejected or accepted, but is something that is produced in him.

Tong
R0656

 

[Renniks]

You must realize that before Jesus said that, this is what happened:

John 13:1 Now before the Feast of the Passover, when Jesus knew that His hour had come that He should depart from this world to the Father, having loved His own who were in the world, He loved them to the end. 2 And supper being ended, the devil having already put it into the heart of Judas Iscariot, Simon’s son, to betray Him,

Of course Jesus knew of this at the very instant Satan entered Judas. So we must, from that point on, take this context to what Jesus will be saying concerning the 12 apostles. Jesus said concerning them:

John 13:18 “I do not speak concerning all of you. I know whom I have chosen; but that the Scripture may be fulfilled, ‘He who eats bread with Me has lifted up his heel against Me.’

Now, you referred to what Jesus said in John 15:16, which is at the time that Satan had already entered Judas, the son of perdition. Let me quote that verse here:

John 15:16 You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you.

You misuse scriptures there, saying and believing that they were all appointed to go and bear fruit, even Judas, the son of perdition. Are you aware what scriptures says of Judas, even while he is numbered among the twelve? Scriptures says "he was a thief, and had the money box; and he used to take what was put in it". Clearly, Judas could not be included among them. If you believe otherwise, then you also believe that the son of perdition was also appointed to go and bear fruit and his fruit should remain. I ask, did Judas bear fruit? If you believe he did, what fruit did he bear and that remained? I ask, do you really believe that Judas, the son of perdition, was included among them, to whom Jesus says whatever they would ask of the Father in His name, will be given him?

And Jesus prayed concerning them:

John 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.

Clearly, the 11 were given by the Father to the Son for salvation and to be Jesus' witnesses and apostles. And while Judas Iscariot was also given by the Father to the Son, obviously it is for a purpose, but not for salvation. Judas, as Jesus refers to him, is the "son of perdition". Jesus could have saved him, but He did not. Read and realize the part of Judas:

Matthew 26:20 When evening had come, He sat down with the twelve. 21 Now as they were eating, He said, “Assuredly, I say to you, one of you will betray Me.” 22 And they were exceedingly sorrowful, and each of them began to say to Him, “Lord, is it I?” 23 He answered and said, “He who dipped his hand with Me in the dish will betray Me. 24 The Son of Man indeed goes just as it is written of Him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been good for that man if he had not been born.” 25 Then Judas, who was betraying Him, answered and said, “Rabbi, is it I?” He said to him, “You have said it.”

Judas, even while Jesus clearly have made Himself clear that He knows of what he is about to do, even telling him to his face that he is the one who will betray him and what would become of him who betrays the Son of man, it is as though Judas did not hear a thing and as though it is of no matter to him.

John 13:26 Jesus answered, “It is he to whom I shall give a piece of bread when I have dipped it.” And having dipped the bread, He gave it to Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon. 27 Now after the piece of bread, Satan entered him. Then Jesus said to him, “What you do, do quickly.”

Jesus, instead of doing something about it to save Judas, He even told him to do it quickly.

Ponder on that.

Tong
R0653

Matthew 10:1-8

Jesus summoned His twelve disciples and gave them authority over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal every kind of disease and every kind of sickness.

Now the names of the twelve apostles are these: The first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; and James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother; Philip and Bartholomew; Thomas and Matthew the tax collector; James the son of Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus; Simon the Zealot, and Judas Iscariot, the one who betrayed Him.

These twelve Jesus sent out after instructing them: “Do not go in the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter any city of the Samaritans; but rather go to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. And as you go, preach, saying, ‘The kingdom of heaven is at hand.’ Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse the lepers, cast out demons. Freely you received, freely give."

• Jesus summoned 12
• Jesus gave them authority
• Judas is specifically mentioned as one of the 12, and thus one of them that received authority
• These 12 went out
• These 12 freely received and were to freely give.

Matthew 10:16

“Behold, I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves; so be shrewd as serpents and innocent as doves.

Judas was one of the 12 who freely received, and who had been given authority, and was counted by Christ as one of His sheep. The Spirit was with Judas, as Judas had the power to heal, cast out demons, and raise the dead.

Ponder that.
Yes, Judas fell.

John 17:6-12

“I have manifested Your name to the men whom You gave Me out of the world; they were Yours and You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word. Now they have come to know that everything You have given Me is from You; for the words which You gave Me I have given to them; and they received them and truly understood that I came forth from You, and they believed that You sent Me. I ask on their behalf; I do not ask on behalf of the world, but of those whom You have given Me; for they are Yours; and all things that are Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine; and I have been glorified in them. I am no longer in the world; and yet they themselves are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep them in Your name, the name which You have given Me, that they may be one even as We are. While I was with them, I was keeping them in Your name which You have given Me; and I guarded them and not one of them was lost but the son of perdition, so that the Scripture would be fulfilled.

What does He say:

• They were the Fathers, and He gave them to the Son
• They had received and truly understood who Christ was, and they believed in Him
• Christ was glorified in them.
• This includes Judas.

Christ has promised to keep and protect us (John 10:25-30), and that’s what He did with the disciples here. But the power to keep us remains so long as we remain, by faith, in Him:


1 Peter 1:3-5

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! By his great mercy he gave us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, that is, into an inheritance imperishable, undefiled, and unfading. It is reserved in heaven for you, who by God’s power are protected through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.


If we deny Him, He will deny us (2 Tim. 2:11-13).
Judas was a sheep, until he was not, due to his own loss of faith.

 

[Tong2020]

This is amusing. It's the classic Calvinist trying to have his cake and eat it too scenerio. You actually say, I assume with a straight face: You see, "concerning the true Christian, the willingness is no more an issue, but a given, when they believed and surrendered their life to Jesus Christ."

And yet you say: "On the other hand, the truth is that, God works in the Christian both to will and to, and so the Christian does so because of that."
So which is it? Is there surrender on the believers part of not? Oh, wait, they don't actually believe in your scenario, God believes for them! You can't even make your argument without claiming that the Christian has to submit to God while at the same time trying to deny that the Christian has to submit to God. It's gooblygook. Just read the verse for what it says, both are true, we have to work at it and God works in us.

Now you get confused with your strawman who claims that God believes for the Christian.

You said "....we have to work at it and God works in us". Again, a misuse of scriptures.

Tong
R0657

 

[Tong2020]

If the faith is coming from God and I can do nothing to accept it, then obviously God is doing everything while I do nothing.

What can you do to have faith, if you don't get to hear His words? It is God who brings His words to your hearing and He is also the one who enables one to discern spiritually.

Tong
R0658

 

[Tong2020]

Because it's not an either\or. Gods actions are one part of the equation and Paul's belief another part. God chose Judas too, but he did not cause Judas to betray Jesus, for example.

What equation are you talking about?

Tong
R0659

 

[Tong2020]

I am essentially arminian in my beliefs, although I don't claim to believe everything Arminias did. Arminian or Calvinist as just labels to give us an overall understanding of where we fall on these issues.

So again, are you Arminian? It's a simple question that can be easily answered by a simple yes or no.

Tong
R0660

 

[atpollard]

I have faith, i believe, I've confessed and repented and accepted Christ as lord and saviour, but am i saved?

If God had not removed your heart of stone (a dead heart) and given you a heart of flesh (a living heart) then you would still have no faith and you would not believe and you would have never repented (and therefore had no reason to confess) and Jesus would not be your Lord and Savior ... which would be exactly how you would want things.

See Ephesians 2:1-10 for a “God’s eye view” of the event and John 10:26-30 for a “man’s eye view” of the same event.

 

[Renniks]

What is the atonement for concerning those men and women who were already in the grave before the cross?

I just told you. Yes, both Christ's Atonement and our faith have to exist for salvation. I don't see what the issue is? The atonement is for their sins, same as it's for ours. It's only applied to the believers.

 

[Renniks]

I am not at all confused, but you are. When scriptures says that Jesus was sent to save His people, it is clear then that He was not sent to save each and every man.

Try to honestly answer this simple question:

Was Jesus sent to save all (each and every man) mankind or only His people?

Tong
R0655

I pick option three. He was sent to save those who are willing. One becomes his, one is not born his person.

 

[Renniks]

As to your question "can one refuse the faith that God gives him?" While faith is said to be given by God, it is not something that is rejected or accepted, but is something that is produced in him.

So, you just answered by not answering. One can not refuse if it is something God alone produces in a person. Which makes it irresistible and you are teaching fatalism.

 

[Renniks]

You said "....we have to work at it and God works in us". Again, a misuse of scriptures.

Lol, no, it's literally what the verse says.

 

[Renniks]

What can you do to have faith, if you don't get to hear His words? It is God who brings His words to your hearing and He is also the one who enables one to discern spiritually.

Tong
R0658

Jesus says he who seeks will find, and the one that knocks will have the door opened.
Do you think God will withhold knowledge from the one who is honestly seeking? Do you limit God to rely on men physically preaching only or does the Spirit work in other ways too?

 

[Renniks]

So again, are you Arminian? It's a simple question that can be easily answered by a simple yes or no.

Tong
R0660

Yes, but not entirely. See, it's not so simple. I would fall into the arminian category, but again, that category is wider than Arminius' specific beliefs. It depends what you mean by arminian.