Spotting the Heretic

[RogerDC]

Actually, the words are, "If we say that we have no sin" which is referring to indwelling sin rather than practical sins

I see. A couple of verses later (1John 1:10) we read: “If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us” - does this refers to “indwelling sin” too?////////And in the verse after that (1John 2:1), John says, “I am writing to you that you may not sin, but if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ”. Obviously, “sin” here doesn’t refer to “indwelling sin”, but sins consciously committed by the believer in everyday life. In other words, your claim that the “sin” in 1John 1:8 is “indwelling sin rather than practical sins” is a nonsense.

....otherwise 1 John 1:8 is in contradiction to 1 John 3:5-9.

So now you’re claiming that 1John 3:5-9 says a believer does not sin at all? If so … wow, what planet are you on? Believers can and do sin - as 1John 2:1 implies: “I am writing to you that you may not sin, but if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ”. And there are many other scriptures that clearly imply that believers can and do sin - eg, Matt 7:21-23, Romans 6, Gal 5, 1Cor 6, James 5, Heb 6).

1John 3:5-9 doesn’t mean a believer literally does not sin and “cannot sin”. It means, if a believer truly abides in Christ (v.6), he will not allow his life to be dominated by sin, but will chose obedience instead, albeit an imperfect obedience. In this life a believer retains his sinful nature due to the effects of Original Sin, so perfection is impossible.

Do you believe you are sinless?

He is saying that a man is justified by works before men

Right so, the first part of James 2:24, "a man is justified by works", relates to being justified before men, but the second part" and not by faith alone", relates to being justified before God. That interpretation is stupidly wrong, it doesn't even deserve a reply.

...works do not bring justification or glory in the sight of God (Romans 4:2).​

You've got it half right, little one - works WITHOUT FAITH don't justify. Works with faith DO justify.

Explain why the "saints" are not those who have faith only, but have faith AND obey the commandments of God (Rev 14:12, 12:17).​

 

[RogerDC]

"Where sin abounds, grace much more abounds" does not mean that sinning is a means of obtaining grace

No kidding?

but that grace is superabundant through faith in Jesus Christ even where sin is in excess. That He gives a "grace that is greater than all my sin"...

Nonsense. If that were so, a Christian could become a monster and spend his life committing the most horrendous crimes and still be saved!
If grace is "greater than all my sin", Paul would not warn believers that their sins may prevent them from getting to Heaven (Gal 5, 1Cor 6); that sin “leads to death” (Romans 6); and that without holiness (obedience to God’s commandments), no one will see the Lord (Heb 12:14).

“Where sin abounds, grace much more abounds” (Romans 5:20) means the power of grace is greater than the power of sin, which empowers the believer to choose obedience instead of sin.

It doesn’t mean: No matter how much a believer sins, he will still be saved because grace covers all his sins. Only a fool would argue that God will reward a life-time of disobedience and serious sin with eternal life!

In justifying them, He gives them a new identity that they are to live by.

Your doctrine doesn’t add up: You claim that grace will cover all a believer’s sins, but here you say a believer must live righteously. Pray tell, why must a believer live righteously if all his unrighteousness is covered by grace?

 

[RogerDC]

So, you do not burn incense to Mary as the queen of heaven?

Mary was a sinful human being who needed Christ to be her Saviour...see Luke 6:47.

Therefore if you burn incense to her, or if other Catholics do; are they not worshiping a false god also?

I've never been a Catholic so I don't know what your practices are.

I'm just saying, if you do these things, are they not such?

I'm not aware that Catholics burn incense to Mary. As far as I know, incense is only used around the altar during Mass in conjunction with the Eucharist.

Mary was a sinful human being who needed Christ to be her Saviour...see Luke 6:47.

Not a very intelligent argument: If not for God, Mary would not have been "sinless". If not for God, Mary would not be able to get to Heaven, whether she was "sinless" or not. So of course God was Mary's Saviour.

 

[justbyfaith]

I see. A couple of verses later (1John 1:10) we read: “If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us” - does this refers to “indwelling sin” too?////////

No, it refers to past sins (not present and future ones).

John says, “I am writing to you that you may not sin, but if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ”. Obviously, “sin” here doesn’t refer to “indwelling sin”, but sins consciously committed by the believer in everyday life.

Note the word "if" that means there is a possibility that the believer will not sin.

In other words, your claim that the “sin” in 1John 1:8 is “indwelling sin rather than practical sins” is a nonsense.

1 John 3:5-9 would tell us different.

1John 3:5-9 doesn’t mean a believer literally does not sin and “cannot sin”. It means, if a believer truly abides in Christ (v.6), he will not allow his life to be dominated by sin, but will chose obedience instead, albeit an imperfect obedience. In this life a believer retains his sinful nature due to the effects of Original Sin, so perfection is impossible.

Do you believe you are sinless?

I have indwelling sin; but as long as I abide in Christ I sin not (1 John 3:6).

And 1 John 3:9 does indeed literally mean what it says.

For Paul made forth a precedent for interpreting scripture when he said,

2Co 3:12, Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:

Too often, when people interpret holy scripture, they look at their own lives and then interpret the scriptures by their own experience. In reading 1 John 3:9, they say, "I sin; and I want to believe that I am born again: therefore this verse cannot be saying that the born of God cannot sin." they are interpreting scripture by their experience; when what they should be doing is interpreting their experience by the holy scriptures: "the scriptures say that the born of God cannot sin: I sin; therefore I must not be born again." But because that is unthinkable for most, they choose the other option.

You've got it half right, little one - works WITHOUT FAITH don't justify. Works with faith DO justify.

Works even with faith don't even justify. Because works don't save at all (Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5 (kjv), Romans 4:5-6)

Tit 3:5, Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Explain why the "saints" are not those who have faith only, but have faith AND obey the commandments of God (Rev 14:12, 12:17).

Because we are saved by grace through faith alone in Jesus Christ; and this salvation is the shedding abroad of the love of Christ in a person's heart (Romans 5:5). This love is the fulfilling of the righteousness of the Lord in a man's life (Romans 13:8-10, Galatians 5:14, 1 John 5:3, 2 John 1:6, Romans 8:4). It is not in word or in tongue only, but in deed and in truth (1 John 3:17-18).

But the love/righteousness itself is a free gift that is given freely to the one who simply believes in Christ and what He did for them on the Cross (Romans 5:15-19)

Nonsense. If that were so, a Christian could become a monster and spend his life committing the most horrendous crimes and still be saved!

You are discounting the fact that if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new (2 Corinthians 5:17 (kjv)).

If that were not the case, then technically, the doctrines of grace indicate that a Christian could indeed be a monster and commit the most horrendous crimes and still be saved.

But grace changes people so that if anyone is truly a recipient, they will never head down that path of becoming a monster.

It doesn’t mean: No matter how much a believer sins, he will still be saved because grace covers all his sins.

How much sin must a believer commit before he crosses over the edge and is no longer a recipient of grace?

Your doctrine doesn’t add up: You claim that grace will cover all a believer’s sins, but here you say a believer must live righteously. Pray tell, why must a believer live righteously if all his unrighteousness is covered by grace?

Because of grace, God gives the believer a new identity of righteousness that cannot be trifled with, even if he blows it a million times after coming to salvation through faith alone in Jesus Christ. Because he has this identity, he is called to live by it. As the believer is transformed by the renewing of his mind, as he begins to realize that who he is is righteous, regardless of his ungodly behaviour, he will begin to realize that hey! I am righteous! Now why don't I start living according to my new identity?

 

[justbyfaith]

I'm not aware that Catholics burn incense to Mary. As far as I know, incense is only used around the altar during Mass in conjunction with the Eucharist.
Not a very intelligent argument: If not for God, Mary would not have been "sinless". If not for God, Mary would not be able to get to Heaven, whether she was "sinless" or not. So of course God was Mary's Saviour.

You are not seeing the nature of God being Saviour. In God being Saviour, it is that He might save His people from their sins (Matthew 1:21).

You need to consider what Mary was saved from, in that the Lord was her Saviour.

 

[Behold]

So if I understand you correctly, you're saying the answer to the problem of sin is to not resist the temptation to sin, but to give in and commit sin -

You have stated, without realizing it, exactly what the religious heretics said to Paul.
They accused him of teaching.."let us sin so that Grace will abound".
So, thats nothing new you are doing..saying, and thinking.

Let me make it a simple as i can, as i tend to do a lot of explaining so that people are able to get inside it and think about it.
And this way, God gives them the Revelation.

Ok..

God removed the 1st Covenant because He found fault with it.
The Old Testament, the first covenant, the LAW the COMMANDMENTS, failed to do the important thing.
They can't give you RIGHTEOUSNESS and they can't remove SIN CONSCIOUSNESS from you.
Those 2 Things, those 2 issues, are what God resolved with His "Eternal Redemption" gained for us "once and for all" by Jesus blood, death, and resurrection.

So, a born again person, from day one, is now under a new dominion,= a new authority.
YET, they dont understand this unless a good teacher like me helps them to SEE,... they will continue to react and behave as if they are a "saved sinner".
Their pastor, pope, bishop, minister, family, also do not understand the Grace of God, so they also never find their way out of the dark until God sends them someone to help them out of the dark and into the Light of God's Amazing Grace.
This means that until they come to understand that they now EXIST (born again)= within a NEW KINGDOM that has NEW RULES, they will behave as is they are part unbeliever (sinning), and part in the flesh believer (repenting).
Many do this all their Christian lives, thinking that is what Christians are supposed to be doing.

They will do this until they SEE the TRUTH regarding who they have become as a NEW CREATION "in Christ".

And to see that, is to begin to exist IN THAT LIGHT....(Walking in the Spirit) .as a Child of the Light, = within God's Kingdom that is a Kingdom of Light.
'"Light" " refers to God's Holiness and Righteousness and Truth.
So, the born again person, is in a body on earth, yet their born again Spirit is IN GOD, IN CHRIST, seated in Heavenly places, .. "ONE" with God and Christ.

So, to stop sinning, (works of the flesh) (walking in the flesh) you have to SEE yourself as God has placed you in the Spirit, You are iN GOD.
We are born again INTO The Spirit of GOD. And that is ETERNAL.

Once you begin to realize that THIS is where you are, and who you are become, the you will begin to exist in a new mind...(Right Believing), and from that, you will find power, and Victory over "sin consciousness" and "the power of the law"..

So the farther in realization a believer is, from that place of Right Believing, the more they will sin and repent, and continue to do it and argue that they have "indwelling sin" and beat you with the rest of the carnal self righteous Theology.

 

[Prayer Warrior]

.

 

[justbyfaith]

Of course, we are in fact "saved sinners" in that we are delivered from the power of sin (1 John 3:5-0) while at the same time the element of sin is not eradicated from your body (1 John 1:8, Galatians 3:22, Romans 3:23).

So I am a sinner in that sin dwells in my mortal flesh.

However, I am also saved from the power of sin; in that the element of sin within me is rendered dead (Romans 6:6, Galatians 5:24, Romans 7:8) so that it no longer has any authority over my behaviour.

Therefore, I am a sinful human being (a sinner) in that I am indwelt by the element of sin.

And yet I do not have to live or behave according to that sin nature that dwells within me. For it has been put to death and I continue to put it to death in the power of the Holy Ghost (Romans 8:12-13).

 

[marks]

Bible-babbling-.

I'm sorry, What?

 

[marks]

I keep coming across the bizarre notion on on forums like this that a believer should not ""fight against" the temptation to sin or use "self-effort" to resist sin. It's such nonsense.

Actually, it's not nonsense. It's committing yourself to the keeping power of God. He is Who sanctifies you. You don't do that. He does that. So instead of trying to do that yourself, allow Him to do it.

You say, you must use your free will to decide against sinning and not sinning. I say that if you are at that point, you are already stepping away from faith into self-effort, and already on the path to failure.

When we are focused on God there is no question of whether we will sin or not, of course we will not sin!

We need to understand what temptation is. The word itself means both to tempt and to test. And for God, it's not a temptation to sin. That's not what He's doing.

Contrary situations come in life, whether some external threat, discomfort, internal fear, or wrong desire, or whatever it is, and we make our first choice in either choosing to continue in trust in God or not.

If we choose to continue, we simply experience that thing, whatever it is, and when it's over it's over. We trust God to do what is needed, to guide us in what is needed for us to do or not do, but otherwise, we just continue to live our life, even happier knowing that God is working in us.

But if we stop trusting, and start to look at the waves, we start to sink. Not because the waves mades us sink, thought they do, but because we took our eyes off of Jesus. And once we've done that, then we start with all the self-effort. I've got to fix this! I can't stand it! Stop thinking about it. I'm not going to do that. I hate myself when I do that. Do something else!

All this is because there is something going on that we aren't at peace about, and aren't willing to just endure through.

And that's a trust issue.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Resisting sin means making the choice not to sin. You can't make that choice without using your free will, whether you "focus on Jesus" or not. Grace doesn't need a conscious effort to "focus on Jesus" in order to work - it can work at a subconscious level.

Hi Roger,

Something about what we call temptations . . . as they can also be called provings . . . they are not intended as invitations to sin.

God does not want us to sin, He does not devise ways to trip us into sin, if something is tempting us to sin, God isn't doing it. And with that said, God declares that ALL THINGS are working toward our good, those of us who love God, and are His called.

When we face something that is to us a temptation to sin, it is only that because we make it so. God presents us with opportunities to grow, and that's what He intends. Feelings of risk, of need, of anger, desires for evil things, divisions and dislikes and anything else you can think of that comes from inside the old man. External dangers, privations, injustices, opportunities do work evil, enticements and offenses, and whatever else you can think of that comes from outside.

All of these are the program God has put in place for our lives, and every last bit of it is intended to provide opportunity for us to grow in righteousness and holiness, not to sin. But when we don't trust Him, aren't relying solely on Him, then we look away, to ourselves, to the world, to anything other than simple faith in Christ, that's when it becomes a temptation, whatever it is.

Much love!

 

[marks]

If that were so, a Christian could become a monster and spend his life committing the most horrendous crimes and still be saved!

Is that what you think? That becoming a Christian could turn us into monsters? Make us want to be Sin Monsters? That's not what being reborn is, I don't think.

Much love!

 

[marks]

You've got it half right, little one - works WITHOUT FAITH don't justify. Works with faith DO justify.

Justify in what way? To render you innocent?

 

[marks]

It doesn’t mean: No matter how much a believer sins, he will still be saved because grace covers all his sins. Only a fool would argue that God will reward a life-time of disobedience and serious sin with eternal life!

Are you arguing that eternal life is the reward for obedience?

 

[justbyfaith]

Are you arguing that eternal life is the reward for obedience?

I know I'm butting in...

But I would say that our obedience comes as the result of having been given eternal life.

 

[marks]

I know I'm butting in...

But I would say that our obedience comes as the result of having been given eternal life.

You aren't butting in! You are very welcome!

 

[marks]

Of course, we are in fact "saved sinners" in that we are delivered from the power of sin (1 John 3:5-0) while at the same time the element of sin is not eradicated from your body (1 John 1:8, Galatians 3:22, Romans 3:23).

So I am a sinner in that sin dwells in my mortal flesh.

However, I am also saved from the power of sin; in that the element of sin within me is rendered dead (Romans 6:6, Galatians 5:24, Romans 7:8) so that it no longer has any authority over my behaviour.

Therefore, I am a sinful human being (a sinner) in that I am indwelt by the element of sin.

And yet I do not have to live or behave according to that sin nature that dwells within me. For it has been put to death and I continue to put it to death in the power of the Holy Ghost (Romans 8:12-13).

I'd still rather say that I am a child of God, but that I still live in a body of sinful flesh. My identity is now found in Christ.

Much love!

 

[justbyfaith]

I'd still rather say that I am a child of God, but that I still live in a body of sinful flesh. My identity is now found in Christ.

Much love!

Yes, I like that better too.

But in order to deal with those who unashamedly say, "I am a sinner saved by grace", I desire to define what that means for them so that they understand that they cannot excuse their sins by making such a statement.

 

[RogerDC]

Justify in what way? To render you innocent?

No believrer is rendered "innocent" by goods works. God tests our faith and our love for him by our obedience to his commandments. It has always been thus - God tested Adam and Eve with the commandment to not eat from that tree. God tested Israel by there obedience to the law of Moses.
"If you love me, you will keep my commandments" (John 14:15).

In Rev 3:4 Jesus declares certain believers "worthy" of salvation, based on their good works. That's what it means to be justified by works.
Believers will be judged on the Last Day in the same way Jesus judges believers in Rev 2, 3 - according to their faith and their works (obedience). You ought to read those chapters sometime.

 

[justbyfaith]

No believrer is rendered "innocent" by goods works.

A believer is declared innocent/righteous by faith, however.

In Rev 3:4 Jesus declares certain believers "worthy" of salvation, based on their good works.

In Revelation 3:4, they are not declared "worthy" because of good works; but rather they are declared worthy because of the fact that they are sanctified through faith (Acts of the Apostles 26:18) and the word of His grace (Acts of the Apostles 20:32).