Grace vs Legalism

[CharismaticLady]

And if it's given you the idea that having become born of God that you may become once again spiritually dead, and cast out of the family of God, I believe you've gotten the wrong idea.

Once you've learned about Jesus, you can't go back to offering goats and bulls as if His blood was no better than theirs.

Now that you know about Jesus, and you offer a goat, then you're saying through that action, Ah, this goat's is better than Jesus' blood!

Where in the world do you get that @justbyfaith said any such thing. I read his post #724 that you were responding to and....YIKES! This is bearing false witness. Just because someone is clinging to Jesus and does not want to stumble is scriptural 2 Peter 1:2-11, especially 10-11. OSAS is greasy grace.

 

[marks]

Where in the world do you get that @justbyfaith said any such thing. I read his post #724 that you were responding to and....YIKES! This is bearing false witness. Just because someone is clinging to Jesus and does not want to stumble is scriptural 2 Peter 1:2-11, especially 10-11. OSAS is greasy grace.

What specifically am I lying about, are you saying?

Said "any such thing", what such thing? Specific.

 

[marks]

Where in the world do you get that @justbyfaith said any such thing. I read his post #724 that you were responding to and....YIKES! This is bearing false witness. Just because someone is clinging to Jesus and does not want to stumble is scriptural 2 Peter 1:2-11, especially 10-11. OSAS is greasy grace.

This isn't the first time you've accused me of lying, btw.

And I'm also noticing that your little digs are increasing, I'm hoping that we can return to a better level of discussion.

Much love!

 

[2 Chr. 34:19]

“Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of Me.” John 5:39

 

[CharismaticLady]

This isn't the first time you've accused me of lying, btw.

And I'm also noticing that your little digs are increasing, I'm hoping that we can return to a better level of discussion.

Much love!

The post you were responding to said nothing about this:

Once you've learned about Jesus, you can't go back to offering goats and bulls as if His blood was no better than theirs.

Now that you know about Jesus, and you offer a goat, then you're saying through that action, Ah, this goat's is better than Jesus' blood!

I only looked up that last post by having what I ignored show up (I have him on ignore), and it said nothing about the blood of bulls and goats. Now you may have been referring to one farther back that I don't know about. But from what I know about his beliefs, this is not true of him.

 

[CharismaticLady]

This isn't the first time you've accused me of lying, btw.

And I'm also noticing that your little digs are increasing, I'm hoping that we can return to a better level of discussion.

Much love!

When your Much hate! turns back to Much love! to me and others, I will. We used to be friends and mostly on the same page, but then you turned nasty, and frankly, I missed the old you.

 

[marks]

and frankly, I missed the old you.

Why that's just what I was thinking.

Not about the hate, that is . . . missing the old you, yeah, that says it.

We used to have good discussion, now, you've taking to saying I'm "bearing false witness", and other ways that you shift things to me personally.

Let's get back to just discussing the topics, nicely.

Why say I'm hating you because I point out you are saying I'm lying? Wouldn't it be better to ask for clarification than going straight to accusation? Why say I'm lying?

But if you want believe I'm hating you, and then to use that as justification to say what is not appropriate, or accurate, that's up to you. Your choice what to think, your choice what to do.

It is much love. I very much desire good for you from God, the source of every good gift!

 

[CharismaticLady]

Why that's just what I was thinking.

Not about the hate, that is . . . missing the old you, yeah, that says it.

We used to have good discussion, now, you've taking to saying I'm "bearing false witness", and other ways that you shift things to me personally.

Let's get back to just discussing the topics, nicely.

Why say I'm hating you because I point out you are saying I'm lying? Wouldn't it be better to ask for clarification than going straight to accusation? Why say I'm lying?

But if you want believe I'm hating you, and then to use that as justification to say what is not appropriate, or accurate, that's up to you. You're choice what to think, you're choice what to do.

It is much love. I very much desire good for you from God, the source of every good gift!

Okay, I'm game. Tell me why you brought us the blood of bulls and goats as if to counter what justbyfaith believes?

I also have a question I've pondered for years.

2 Peter 2:
21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. 22 But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: “A dog returns to his own vomit,” and, “a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire.”

This reminds me of what was said about Judas, that it would have been better for him to never have been born.

I have a theory, but only a theory, that I would like to discuss friendly with you. But be warned, it goes against OSAS, but does take into account the spirit being eternally alive.

 

[marks]

But be warned, it goes against OSAS

If your idea of OSAS is "greasy grace" then we aren't going to be talking the same terminology, so first, define "OSAS" for me, to clarify your perception of this doctrine.

 

[marks]

Okay, I'm game. Tell me why you brought us the blood of bulls and goats as if to counter what justbyfaith believes?

I gave an example of a passage from Hebrews that people have misunderstood, and misapplied, to their own hurt, and what I believe the real application to be.

This was to counter the idea that @Behold was suggesting that if a passage in Hebrews destroys someone's faith, then this is saying it's not inspired, or something like that. That wasn't what Behold actually said, I don't think. You'd really need to read through the posts to follow the thought.

It's a passage that HAS been used destroying people's faith, but the correct use is very different. It's inspiration is true, I believe, and it has a valid meaning, and application, but misunderstanding it and misapplying it can cause people to spend their lives living in fear that they won't be able to keep themselves saved.

Much love!

 

[CharismaticLady]

If your idea of OSAS is "greasy grace" then we aren't going to be talking the same terminology, so first, define "OSAS" for me, to clarify your perception of this doctrine.

We still have free will after we have been born again. Hebrews 10:26-31 wouldn't exist as a warning to the sanctified if it wasn't a possibility that someone filled with the Spirit of God couldn't willfully sin. There are those who believe that once born again, willful sinning cannot separate them from God. That apathy toward willful sinning is what I and others call greasy grace, and Jude calls turning the grace of God into licentiousness (a license to sin).

 

[CharismaticLady]

I gave an example of a passage from Hebrews that people have misunderstood, and misapplied, to their own hurt, and what I believe the real application to be.

This was to counter the idea that @Behold was suggesting that if a passage in Hebrews destroys someone's faith, then this is saying it's not inspired, or something like that. That wasn't what Behold actually said, I don't think. You'd really need to read through the posts to follow the thought.

It's a passage that HAS been used destroying people's faith, but the correct use is very different. It's inspiration is true, I believe, and it has a valid meaning, and application, but misunderstanding it and misapplying it can cause people to spend their lives living in fear that they won't be able to keep themselves saved.

Much love!

If you remember the passage off the top of your head can I see the verses? Thanks

BTW, I am assured of my salvation even though I believe OSAS as a doctrine is dangerous when taken to its objectionable conclusion of licentiousness. And my assurance is not based on Hebrews, but 2 Peter 1:2-11 and 1 John 3:21-24.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Finally, brethren, whatever things are true, whatever things are noble, whatever things are just, whatever things are pure, whatever things are lovely, whatever things are of good report, if there is any virtue and if there is anything praiseworthy—meditate on these things.

Also, when I read the Word, revelation of the true meaning is revealed. And if I ask a question about theology, the answer is immediately given. It is the Spirit within me that I have a relationship with.

Okay, that's fine. You are using the phrase "mind of Christ" differently than Paul. This is why I asked. He was talking about Christ's teachings as they were revealed to the Apostles. They know his mind; that is, they know what he thinks. And these men brought Jesus' teaching to us, you and me, and it was recorded in the scriptures -- the word.

So I agree, if you mean to say that you know what Jesus taught because you have read the Bible, then yeah, you know "the mind of Christ" too.

 

[marks]

apathy toward willful sinning

Apathy?

 

[marks]

BTW, I am assured of my salvation even though I believe OSAS as a doctrine is dangerous when taken to its objectionable conclusion of licentiousness. And my assurance is not based on Hebrews, but 2 Peter 1:2-11 and 1 John 3:21-24.

So then, in your view, rebirth is forever?

 

[marks]

Okay, that's fine. You are using the phrase "mind of Christ" differently than Paul. This is why I asked. He was talking about Christ's teachings as they were revealed to the Apostles. They know his mind; that is, they know what he thinks. And these men brought Jesus' teaching to us, you and me, and it was recorded in the scriptures -- the word.

So I agree, if you mean to say that you know what Jesus taught because you have read the Bible, then yeah, you know "the mind of Christ" too.

I think there is a different meaning, and that this is pointed to in calling for our repentance. The word translated repentance in Greek is metanoia. Literally translated, it means "after-mind", and refers to the result of exchange.

Meta is the preposition we translate "after", noia, "mind", and in Koine Greek as a compound, the after-mind is having exchanged one mind to receive another.

So while the basic idea in Hebrew speaking of repentance is to change your direction, that is, stop going this way, and start going that way, in the New Testament, repentance is to spot having the old mind, and start having a new mind.

We repudiate the old mind, confessing our sin, and God gives us a new mind, giving birth to us, born from above, a new creation.

I've been crucified together with Christ, yet I live, yet not I, but Christ lives in me (Gal. 2).

I think that this new mind, this is the mind of Christ, and renewing the mind is to learn to live life by the new mind, and not as according to the old.

Much love@

 

[marks]

That apathy toward willful sinning

I keep thinking about this part of your comment.

I don't see apathy towards sin as being from the new man, and therefore I'd call apathy towards sin to be itself a manifestation of sin from the flesh. It's source is the old man. And we are the new creation, called to put off the old man, and put on the new man.

And then there is the label of apathy that maintains, if you don't think sin can remove you from salvation which you currently have, then you are apathetic about sin. But that's non sequitor. You can be fully opposed to sin, yet not believe that God will cast away His begotten children.

Much love!

 

[CharismaticLady]

Okay, that's fine. You are using the phrase "mind of Christ" differently than Paul. This is why I asked. He was talking about Christ's teachings as they were revealed to the Apostles. They know his mind; that is, they know what he thinks. And these men brought Jesus' teaching to us, you and me, and it was recorded in the scriptures -- the word.

So I agree, if you mean to say that you know what Jesus taught because you have read the Bible, then yeah, you know "the mind of Christ" too.

It is more than reading the Bible, many do that but do not understand it. A few years ago, about ten, I prayed and asked God to undo any false teachings or understandings of His Word, and reveal to me the true meaning. And it was amazing. My understanding exploded. That is how I have been given the mind of Christ.

 

[CharismaticLady]

Apathy?

Yes, apathy.

 

[CharismaticLady]

So then, in your view, rebirth is forever?

Our spirit has gone from mortal to immortal. I know some believe everyone's spirit has been eternal always, but I don't.