My theory about the "Word" in John 1:1

[Heyzeus]

Do you not mind?

No big deal one way or the other but - why post all that silliness that you obviously clipped from some website making the nonsense claim that because the Bible warns against Idols - this helps the desperate attempt to deny the fact that "Sons of God" in the OT .. means "Sons of God" - not idols - nor angels - nor humans .. and this is made clear.

 

[Cooper]

1) No - as a "Person" did not make all things .. nor is the God of Jesus YHWH by my reckoning
2) what difference does it make ? What does Isaiah have to do with the Son not being "The Father" other than zero.

Jesus himself tells you over and over that he is not "The Father" ... why do you not believe him ?

You spoke of the "consort Asherah ..

The Israelite's worshiped them as you can see from my previous post. When you say "a Person" did not make all things" you seem to be deviating away from Christianity in favor of a pantheon of pagan gods. Would I be right?

 

[Cooper]

1) No - as a "Person" did not make all things .. nor is the God of Jesus YHWH by my reckoning
2) what difference does it make ? What does Isaiah have to do with the Son not being "The Father" other than zero.

Jesus himself tells you over and over that he is not "The Father" ... why do you not believe him ?

Jesus said "those who have seen me have seen the Father." Why do you not believe Jesus.
.

 

[Heyzeus]

You spoke of the "consort Asherah .. These were the "Son's of God" in which the Ancient Israelite's believed."

The Israelite's worshiped them and when you say "a Person" did not make all things" you seem to be deviating away from Christianity and over to a pantheon of pagan gods. Would I be right?

Would it not be a God who made all things - as in the universe - and not a human/person ? What are you trying to say here cause it is not making sense as written.

I have not stated what my beliefs are - w/r to this issue so how you figure this is paganism - I have no clue.

The question here is what the ancient Israelite's believed - not what think - and we don't have to guess because we now they believed in a Divine Pantheon. We are talking prior to the Babylonian Captivity here .. before the "Book of the Law" is found during Josiah's reign.

 

[Heyzeus]

Jesus said "those who have seen me have seen the Father." Why do you not believe Jesus.
.

That statement is perfectly in keeping with "The Logos" - so I do believe Jesus :) Jesus was the emissary between man and God - who spoke God's word through the Holy Spirit ... the physical embodiment of God's word .. the physical embodiment of God ..

Now address the numerous passages where Jesus states directly that he is not the Father. Shall I list a few for you.

The best place you get to - is that John Contradicts the Jesus of Matt/Mark

 

[Cooper]

Would it not be a God who made all things - as in the universe - and not a human/person ? What are you trying to say here cause it is not making sense as written.

I have not stated what my beliefs are - w/r to this issue so how you figure this is paganism - I have no clue.

The question here is what the ancient Israelite's believed - not what think - and we don't have to guess because we now they believed in a Divine Pantheon. We are talking prior to the Babylonian Captivity here .. before the "Book of the Law" is found during Josiah's reign.

The Israelite's were worshiping idols right up until the end of the Old Testament and were warned about it in the New Testament. We do not want the true God being replaced by idols.

Mic_5:13 I will destroy your statues of false gods. I will pull down your memorial stones. You will not worship what your hands have made.

Mic_5:14 I will destroy the Asherah poles and your false gods.

1Jn_5:21 So, dear children, keep yourselves away from false gods.

 

[Cooper]

That statement is perfectly in keeping with "The Logos" - so I do believe Jesus :) Jesus was the emissary between man and God - who spoke God's word through the Holy Spirit ... the physical embodiment of God's word .. the physical embodiment of God ..

Now address the numerous passages where Jesus states directly that he is not the Father. Shall I list a few for you.

The best place you get to - is that John Contradicts the Jesus of Matt/Mark

You seem determined to deny Jesus and the Trinity. We need the moderators to look at your posts.
.

 

[101G]

1) No - as a "Person" did not make all things .. nor is the God of Jesus YHWH by my reckoning
2) what difference does it make ? What does Isaiah have to do with the Son not being "The Father" other than zero.

Jesus himself tells you over and over that he is not "The Father" ... why do you not believe him ?

this is why I'm leaving you to yourself, Revelation 22:11.

PICJAG
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"

 

[Heyzeus]

You seem determined to deny Jesus and the Trinity. We need the moderators to look at your posts.
.

What part of the word "Unorthodox Doctrine" do you not understand - as that is the section you are in.. but do go running to the Mods if you think that will make the "bad thoughts" go away.

Sorry to burst your bubble but

1) Modern Bible Scholarship states directly that there is no Trinity stated in the NT -

Now clearly you disagree with Modern Scholarship but .. OK - then back up your claims. All you have done so far is turned tail and run from the teachings of the Jesus of Matt/Mark on the issue.

The disciples did not believe Jesus was God - "the Father" - nor did the author of John. Paul did not believe this either - and certainly not the authors of the Gospel of Mark/Matt

It is not some big secret that the Early Church did not believe that Jesus was God. If you didn't have John to pull from - as Christianity did not have until 100-120 AD - you would not have a single leg to stand on.. So what did Christians believe prior to John ?

The fact of the matter is that this idea that Jesus was "The Father" did not even exist until Tertullian .. around 200 AD .. and at the time this doctrine was considered heresy.

It was not until 325 AD that Jesus was transformed into the Father .. by edict of a pagan Emperor. It took another 500 years of killing "heretics" Christians who had a different idea - for the Modern Trinity Doctrine to prevail within Christianity.

 

[ChristisGod]

Sorry but the bible says that there is only one God, not three.

The Trinity is not Tritheism

Trinity- One God who is the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit
Tritheism- Three Gods the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.

 

[ChristisGod]

So what?
I don't deny he's God. I have confirmed in my post that he is the Incarnate God, but that he is not another deity and did not exist as the Son of God before his incarnation.

Wrong try reading John 17:5 as its the Son speaking about the Father/Son relationship before creation.

And now glorify Me, You Father, with Yourself, with the glory that I had with You before the world existed

Now read John 17:1
Father, the hour has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you.

try connecting the dots.............................

hope this helps !!!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Now according to John 1 :) Jesus is "The Logos" according to John - emissary between man and God - Who spoke God's word through the Holy Spirit .. but- who was not himself God.

Page 1 of the Bible - Mark - should dispel any delusions of the relationship between the two.

Yes He was God before His incarnation. NO doubt. He wasn't Gods thought or speech but the second person of the god head!

Also in Proverbs, we have this:

Proverbs 30:4
Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell?

I am content with the Word Jesus being th eeternal son.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

God's Word is God, and as Jesus is the Word, He is God.

Thats what I said!

 

[Heyzeus]

Yes He was God before His incarnation. NO doubt. He wasn't Gods thought or speech but the second person of the god head!

Also in Proverbs, we have this:

Proverbs 30:4
Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell?

I am content with the Word Jesus being th eeternal son.

Sure .. but that does not make him "God -The Father" .. an emanation from the Godhead perhaps - so yes .. as all of God's sons .. but who is counting :)

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Sure .. but that does not make him "God -The Father" .. an emanation from the Godhead perhaps - so yes .. as all of God's sons .. but who is counting :)

Well Jesus called God the Father, Father, so we should as well!! He even taught us to pray "Our Father".

And Jesus is the only begotten of the Father. The rest of us were adopted!

 

[Cooper]

Thats what I said!

Sorry, I misunderstood.

 

[Heyzeus]

Well Jesus called God the Father, Father, so we should as well!! He even taught us to pray "Our Father".

And Jesus is the only begotten of the Father. The rest of us were adopted!

The rest of "them" not "us" :) of the "sons of God" - Jesus appears to be the only one that was begotten - via a human woman. The rest came from God's mating with Gods .. Such as "El" - The Father - with his Consort Asherah .. and Son Baal. The Trinity of old .. that of the ancient Israelite's.

Some of these sons of Gods mated with human woman .. their offspring were the hero's from the Stories of Old ... the Greek Myths .. and Sumerian religion... ... These however were not the son's of El by a human.. as Jesus was. .. but still these hero's of old had some powers.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

The rest of "them" not "us" :) of the "sons of God" - Jesus appears to be the only one that was begotten - via a human woman. The rest came from God's mating with Gods .. Such as "El" - The Father - with his Consort Asherah .. and Son Baal. The Trinity of old .. that of the ancient Israelite's.

Some of these sons of Gods mated with human woman .. their offspring were the hero's from the Stories of Old ... the Greek Myths .. and Sumerian religion... ... These however were not the son's of El by a human.. as Jesus was. .. but still these hero's of old had some powers.

Is this what you really believe???

YOur proof of these hypotheses?

 

[Heyzeus]

Is this what you really believe???

YOur proof of these hypotheses?

Ummm .. everything I have said is from the Bible ... "El" was the God of Abraham -or some variation of the supreme God of the Divine Pantheon .. El Shaddai - God of the Mountain .. the Most High .. "The Father" The Creator .. are all atributes later ascribed to YHWH.

Call the new one "El YHWH" if you like - it matters not - same God. What matters to this conversation (aside from Modern Bible Scholarship ascribing the Identity of the God of Abraham to El - google "Abraham" and Encyclopedia Brittanica for more info) is that regardless of the name of this God ... the Israelite's believed there were many other Gods.

This does not make them Polytheists .. as they were not to worship these other Gods referred to numerous times in the Bible as "sons of Gods".

So this is not about what I believe .. but what the Bible - archaeology - history - and Biblical Scholarship says.

 

[101G]

Ummm .. everything I have said is from the Bible ... "El" was the God of Abraham -or some variation of the supreme God of the Divine Pantheon .. El Shaddai - God of the Mountain .. the Most High .. "The Father" The Creator .. are all atributes later ascribed to YHWH.

Call the new one "El YHWH" if you like - it matters not - same God. What matters to this conversation (aside from Modern Bible Scholarship ascribing the Identity of the God of Abraham to El - google "Abraham" and Encyclopedia Brittanica for more info) is that regardless of the name of this God ... the Israelite's believed there were many other Gods.

This does not make them Polytheists .. as they were not to worship these other Gods referred to numerous times in the Bible as "sons of Gods".

So this is not about what I believe .. but what the Bible - archaeology - history - and Biblical Scholarship says.

Lets REPROVE THIS ERROR,
you say you believe the bible, if so, Hosea 13:4 "Yet I am the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me: for there is no saviour beside me." did not Abraham know this "LORD WHO IS GOD? lets check the record, Exodus 3:15 "And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations."" now if Abraham was not know of God by YHWH why then YOU Have a problem. for "LORD, all cap is YHWH. lets have a look see... (smile).

H3068 יְהוָה Yhvah (yeh-vaw') n/p.
יְהוָֹה Yhovah (yeh-ho-vaw')
יְהוֹ Yhow (yeh-ho') [as a prefix]
1. (meaning) the self-Existent or Eternal, the I AM.
2. (person) Yahweh (Yehvah), Jewish national name of God.
3. (anglicized) Jehovah.
4. (as a name prefix) Yeho-.
5. (As expressed in Hebraic Koine Greek) ἐγώ εἰμί, I AM (literally: I myself, I am).
[from H1961]
KJV: Jehovah, the Lord.
Root(s): H1961

notice the ROOT of this word, it's
H1961 הָיָה hayah (haw-yaw) v.
1. to exist.
2. to be or become.
3. to come into being, i.e. to happen, to occur (always emphatic, and not a mere copula or auxiliary).
[a primitive root]
KJV: beacon, X altogether, be(-come), accomplished, committed, like), break, cause, come (to pass), do, faint, fall, + follow, happen, X have, last, pertain, quit (one-)self, require, X use.

well where do H1961 הָיָה hayah (haw-yaw) v. show up at in the bible? Exodus 3:14 "And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you." BINGO, the "YHWH" as definition H3068 יְהוָה Yhvah (yeh-vaw') n/p, states.

get out of here, "I AM THAT I AM" is this not where the "YHWH" come from, meaning from the tetragrammaton? H1961 הָיָה hayah (haw-yaw) v.

well well, will, is that not a false statement that you made, listen to what you said, "
mmm .. everything I have said is from the Bible ... "El" was the God of Abraham -or some variation of the supreme God of the Divine Pantheon .. El Shaddai - God of the Mountain .. the Most High .. "The Father" The Creator .. are all atributes later ascribed to YHWH.

Call the new one "El YHWH" if you like - it matters not - same God"

well now is not "YHWH" the false name of God, which many translate as JEHOVAH? ok, listen up, and lets get educate. Exodus 6:1 "Then the LORD said unto Moses, Now shalt thou see what I will do to Pharaoh: for with a strong hand shall he let them go, and with a strong hand shall he drive them out of his land."
Exodus 6:2 "And God spake unto Moses, and said unto him, I am the LORD:"
Exodus 6:3 "And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them."

say what? God was not know to Abraham as "YHWH"/Jehovah. yikes, I smell a lie here.

but what did you say?. "Ummm .. everything I have said is from the Bible ... "El" was the God of Abraham -or some variation of the supreme God of the Divine Pantheon .. El Shaddai - God of the Mountain .. the Most High .. "The Father" The Creator .. are all atributes later ascribed to YHWH.

Call the new one "El YHWH" if you like - it matters not - same God". so all those false name, as you said is, "atributes later ascribed to YHWH , Call the new one "El YHWH ".

now you do know that Exodus comes after Genesis... (smile... lol), right. listen up then, God in Exodus 6:3 said, "And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH (YHWH) was I not known to them."

uh O, either God is lying, (God forbid), or you, and your bible scholars, and archaeologist are lying. I'll take the Latter.....

see Heyzeus, God never gave his Personal Name in the OT, but in name as to "WHAT" he is, yes. and as for "YHWH" or Jehovah, that false name is a lie, as with the rest of them, a false man made up names. don't get upset with 101G, God said he was not known to Abraham as YHWH/Jehovah, nor any NEW El YHWH.

and why do I make this point, those lying pen of the scribe, listen and learn, Genesis 22:14 "And Abraham called the name of that place Jehovahjireh: as it is said to this day, In the mount of the LORD it shall be seen."

see the lie, for God said Abraham didn't know him by YHWH, or Jehovah. ... (smile). so why was "Jehovah" in Abraham mouth? he did put it there. see how easy it is to catch a lie quickly. since the KJV expose the LIE, but the KJV shed LIGHT/the TRUTH on his name? yes, lets check the record. Isaiah 52:6 "Therefore my people shall know my name: therefore they shall know in that day that I am he that doth speak: behold, it is I." when did GOD almighty speak, listen, John 8:24 "I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.". BINGO, that was "JESUS", speaking. now a REVELATION, in the OT, God never gave his personal Name, "JESUS" why? for in the OT he only "APPEARED" to men, but in the NT when he came in flesh in PERSON, let me say that again, when he came IN PERSON, by "MANIFESTATING" in flesh he then and only then gave his PERSONAL NAME. Matthew 1:21 "And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.". and how do we know that it is the ALMIGHTY God of Abraham? listen, Hebrews 1:1 "God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,"
Hebrews 1:2 "Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;" who is HIS, son? answer, his own "ARM", Isaiah 63:5 "And I looked, and there was none to help; and I wondered that there was none to uphold: therefore mine own arm brought salvation unto me; and my fury, it upheld me." if he brought salvation then it was him who was sent, GOD HIMSELF, listen, Isaiah 35:4 "Say to them that are of a fearful heart, Be strong, fear not: behold, your God will come with vengeance, even God with a recompence; he will come and save you." who came, or was sent? THE ONE TRUE GOD, I suggest you read Isaiah 35:4 again....

understand, it was God speaking to us in .... "PERSON". .... not in an "apperance", but in FIRST PERSON. ... (smile)... lol. Jesus the Son is the almighty God , who you calls the "Father" diversdified in flesh. Isaiah 9:6 "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace."
THAT "SON" THAT WAS GIVEN, THAT'S THE EVERLASTING "FATHER".... ... (smile).

for your edification you might want to make some cross reference of these said verses...... :cool:

PICJAG
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"