My theory about the "Word" in John 1:1

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bbyrd009

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You are welcome to believe that the words of Jesus are sheer nonsense if you wish. Left hand vs Right hand does not help you given.

My God - My God - Why have you forsaken me .. was this a battle in God's mine where one side forsook the other .. God has now compartmentalized is brain because he can't stand being "all knowing"

I wouldn't blame God to be honest .. interesting theory you have .. which explains everything in Matt/Mark .. better call up the Pope and tell him you have finally solved the riddle of the Trinity ...
as he even said, "another mystery cleared up by knowing"
from reading a few of these posted replies, I can't believe some of the things I'm hearing now, in this day and time. I thought that basic bible study have eliminated these mistake. but I guess I'm in error seeing these types of response.

PICJAG
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"
well, basic Bible study led by a Mithraist maybe? i mean dont we pretty much all start out with three years under some guy pushing Death, More Abundantly? That turns "Jesus" into an idol?
 

Prayer Warrior

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I think that the Word in John 1:1 is the speech of God, which means that God created the world by speaking. If you look at Genesis 1 you will see that every time before God created something it says "and God spoke". Also in Psalm 33:6 it is written "By the word of the Lord the heavens were created,for he spoke and it was". If this theory is true, if the Word is the spoken word of God, then the "Word" is the expression of the spirit that expresses the thoughts of a person. This then means that the Word of God in John 1:1 is actually God the father himself. The Word is, so to speak, the spirit of a person. It is written that the Holy Spirit came to Mary, and then the Son of God was begotten, the Holy Spirit is accordingly the Word who became flesh, God himself became flesh, his spirit manifested in the flesh.
So there was no "Son of God" before the Incarnation, and so no Trinity either.

What's your opinion on that?
No offense, janc, but it's not good to treat God's Word so lightly, as if our opinion matters when it comes to what He has said. Instead of coming up with your own theories, it would be much more beneficial to you to study the Bible and find answers there. Also, what God has spoken is not theoretical. IOW, it's not a theory.

If you read the Bible, you will see that the Son of God existed prior to the Incarnation. In the following verses, Paul is talking about Jesus Christ saying that "everything was created by Him...."

Col 1:15-20
He is the image of the invisible God,
the firstborn over all creation.

For everything was created by Him,
in heaven and on earth,
the visible and the invisible,
whether thrones or dominions
or rulers or authorities —

all things have been created through Him and for Him.
He is before all things,
and by Him all things hold together.

He is also the head of the body, the church;
He is the beginning,
the firstborn from the dead,
so that He might come to have
first place in everything.
For God was pleased to have
all His fullness dwell in Him,
and through Him to reconcile
everything to Himself
by making peace
through the blood of His cross —
whether things on earth or things in heaven.
 

Heyzeus

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as he even said, "another mystery cleared up by knowing"

well, basic Bible study led by a Mithraist maybe? i mean dont we pretty much all start out with three years under some guy pushing Death, More Abundantly? That turns "Jesus" into an idol?

This was my response to the nature of Christs divinity in the "Sons of God" OP. - .. nothing on Mithra though ... sans perhaps the Sun God parallels ..in an indirect way.

The sons of God are up visiting with God .. thats what the passage says.

Job 1:6 One day the "sons of God" came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came with them. 7 God said to Satan, “Where have you come from?”

Why are you so confused mate - no one sayin sons of God are humans - but you.. so who you saying are sitting up there with God - who are the sons of God ... and BTW .. I'm sorry Luke ... we know they are not Angels ... your friends have all left you .. just us Gods here .. hanging out.

Did Jesus ever say .. I don't have a Brother ... even Matt .. who gave us the virgin birth story said only "begotten" Son .. didn't say only son. Sataniel wasn't born out of no woman .. was Jesus that did that Trick .. hmmm or was he.

Anyway .. Sataniel is not an Angel dear Luke and he sure as heck ain't no Human ... We learn this on Page 1 of the NT - when in proper order. Did you miss it ?

Page 1 of Mark - if you had nothing else to go on - throw away everything you have ever heard or known about the Bible -and all the stories you have ever heard or been written .. and all you knew was Page 1 of Mark... What happens ?

After Jesus is made divine - or as his divinity was revealed - either way .. he goes to Satan for testing.

But first - given this is the only time Father El Speaks Directly to his Son - in the entire NT if not mistaken .. we might want to pay attention to the distinction between "The Father" .. and " a Son" of God .. Father El .. God of Abraham - if you believe the Encyclopedia Britannica and the rational they give - well ... its not theirs actually -- they are citing modern scholarship verbatem.

But I digress .. The Son of this God .. then goes for testing - as is customary - how many examples would you like .. so far .. this story has all the components of hundred other God patronizing a human myth .. From Sargon to Moses .. same story .. Sargon and the basket I mean .. then patronized by a God .. just like Moses .. cept Sargon's God was El .. Just like Abraham .. and his father .. and his Fathers Father.. the one True God God of Noah and Shem .. Creator God - God of the Flood - God of the Mountain - The Most High...

back to the Testing ... Jesus vs Satan round 1

Clearly Satan is not a Human in this story .. how about an Angel ? hmmm .. possible I suppose .. but clearly one with Godlike Powers.

Tell you one thing this Angel is likely not going to do .. and that is Ask God to bow down to him... as God is Standing before him .

but this is not God in the Story - clearly - God is up there .. this man who just turned into a "Son of God" down here. .. and he is hanging out with Satan .. who was sent by El-YHWH - to conduct the standard testing ritual .. and Jesus passes with flying colors.


and the story ends. .. PS though .. Satan has the power to give Jesus the whole world .. Jesus .. who cares.. no big deal .. chooses another path .. doesn't bow down to Satan ...

Obviously if this was God .. the question is ridiculous .. hey God .. I will give you the whole world if you will bow down to me ..

God responding to son like in Job - What ??? what are you talking about .. and they make some kind of bet .. and carry on .. as Father and Son are doing .. in Job 1. again .. one page One from the OT .. one from the NT

and thats all you have to go on .. you are allowed nothing else .. tell me who Satan is.
 
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Waiting on him

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Not much related to "Sons of God" in Mark 1 / Job 1
The referencing of being tempted of Satan in my opinion is His being tempted of the carnal flesh. This in my opinion is what He overcame, we are all tempted of the same.

I personally don’t believe there was an angelic character there with Him
 

Heyzeus

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The referencing of being tempted of Satan in my opinion is His being tempted of the carnal flesh. This in my opinion is what He overcame, we are all tempted of the same.

I personally don’t believe there was an angelic character there with Him

The convo was in relation the meaning of the term "Son's of God" who were these folks to the ancient Israelite's

The short answer - El was head of the Pantheon .. Creator - The Father - God of the Mountain .. God on High .. and so on. 70 or so son's he had . not sure if all by consort Asherah .. These were the "Son's of God" in which the Ancient Israelite's believed.
 

Ronald Nolette

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I think that the Word in John 1:1 is the speech of God, which means that God created the world by speaking. If you look at Genesis 1 you will see that every time before God created something it says "and God spoke". Also in Psalm 33:6 it is written "By the word of the Lord the heavens were created,for he spoke and it was". If this theory is true, if the Word is the spoken word of God, then the "Word" is the expression of the spirit that expresses the thoughts of a person. This then means that the Word of God in John 1:1 is actually God the father himself. The Word is, so to speak, the spirit of a person. It is written that the Holy Spirit came to Mary, and then the Son of God was begotten, the Holy Spirit is accordingly the Word who became flesh, God himself became flesh, his spirit manifested in the flesh.
So there was no "Son of God" before the Incarnation, and so no Trinity either.

What's your opinion on that?

Well that is your theory but it is not SCripture!

John 1
King James Version

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2 The same was in the beginning with God.


14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Read these and know it was is and always will be Jesus the 2nd person of the Triune Godhead.
 

Heyzeus

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Well that is your theory but it is not SCripture!

John 1
King James Version

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2 The same was in the beginning with God.


14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Read these and know it was is and always will be Jesus the 2nd person of the Triune Godhead.


Now according to John 1 :) Jesus is "The Logos" according to John - emissary between man and God - Who spoke God's word through the Holy Spirit .. but- who was not himself God.

Page 1 of the Bible - Mark - should dispel any delusions of the relationship between the two.
 

Cooper

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The convo was in relation the meaning of the term "Son's of God" who were these folks to the ancient Israelite's

The short answer - El was head of the Pantheon .. Creator - The Father - God of the Mountain .. God on High .. and so on. 70 or so son's he had . not sure if all by consort Asherah .. These were the "Son's of God" in which the Ancient Israelite's believed.
And of course, these idols who the Israelites worshiped were false gods.
.
 

Cooper

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Well that is your theory but it is not SCripture!

John 1
King James Version

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2 The same was in the beginning with God.


14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Read these and know it was is and always will be Jesus the 2nd person of the Triune Godhead.
God's Word is God, and as Jesus is the Word, He is God.
 
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Cooper

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Now according to John 1 :) Jesus is "The Logos" according to John - emissary between man and God - Who spoke God's word through the Holy Spirit .. but- who was not himself God.

Page 1 of the Bible - Mark - should dispel any delusions of the relationship between the two.
The pre-existing Jesus was the Word by whom all things were created.
.
 
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Cooper

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The "Son's of God" in Job and other places are not Idols.
IDOLS
Deu_16:22 You must not set up special stones for worshiping false gods. The LORD your God hates them.

Deu_27:15 'Cursed is the one who makes a false god and puts it in its secret place. These false gods are only statues that some worker makes from wood, stone or metal. The LORD hates these things!' "Then all the people will answer, 'Amen!'

Jdg_3:7 The LORD saw that the Israelites did evil things. They forgot about the LORD their God and served the false gods Baal and Asherah.

Jdg_6:10 Then I said to you, 'I am the LORD your God. You will live in the land of the Amorites, but you must not worship their false gods.' But you did not obey me."

Jdg_10:6 Again the Israelites did what the LORD said was wrong. They began worshiping the false gods Baal and the Ashtoreth. They also worshiped the gods of the people of Aram, the gods of the people of Sidon, the gods of the Moabites, the gods of the Ammonites, and the gods of the Philistines. The Israelites left the LORD and stopped serving him.

1Sa_12:10 But your ancestors cried to the LORD for help. They said, 'We have sinned. We left the LORD, and we served the false gods Baal and Ashtoreth. But now save us from our enemies, and we will serve you.'

1Ch_5:25 But they sinned against the God their ancestors had worshiped. They began worshiping the false gods of the people God had destroyed, the people who had lived in the land before them.

2Ch_33:4 Manasseh built altars for false gods in the LORD'S Temple.

Psa_31:6 I hate those who worship false gods. I trust only in the LORD.

Psa_78:58 They built high places and made God angry. They built statues of false gods and made him jealous.

Psa_106:36 They began worshiping the false gods those people worshiped. And their idols became a trap.

Psa_106:38 They killed their innocent sons and daughters and offered them to the false gods of Canaan. So the land was polluted with the sin of murder.

Isa_41:24 "Look, you false gods are worthless. You cannot do anything. Only some horrible fool would want to worship you."

Isa_42:17 But some of them have left me. They say to their gold statues, 'You are my gods.' They trust their false gods, but they will be disappointed and shamed.

Isa_45:16 Many people make false gods, but they will be disappointed. All of them will go away ashamed.

Isa_57:5 All you want is to worship false gods under every green tree. You kill children by every stream and sacrifice them in the rocky places.

Isa_57:13 When you need help, you cry to those false gods that you have gathered around you. Let them help you! But I tell you, the wind will blow them all away. A puff of wind will blow them all away. But the one who depends on me will get the land I promised and enjoy my holy mountain."

Jer_9:14 The people of Judah lived their own way. They were stubborn. They followed the false god Baal. Their fathers taught them to follow those false gods."

Jer_10:11 The Lord says, "Tell them this message: 'These false gods did not make heaven and earth. They will be destroyed and disappear from heaven and earth.'"

Jer_16:13 I will throw you out of this country. I will force you to go to a foreign land. You will go to a land that you and your ancestors never knew. There you can serve false gods all you want to. I will not help you or show you any favors.'

Jer_17:2 Their children remember the altars that were dedicated to false gods. They remember the wooden poles that were dedicated to Asherah. They remember those things under the green trees and on the hills.

Jer_19:13 'The houses in Jerusalem will become as "dirty" as this place, Topheth. The kings' palaces will be ruined like this place, Topheth, because the people worshiped false gods on the roofs of their houses. They worshiped the stars and burned sacrifices to honor them. They gave drink offerings to false gods.'"

Jer_32:29 The Babylonian army is already attacking the city of Jerusalem. They will soon enter the city and start a fire. They will burn down this city. There are houses in this city where the people of Jerusalem made me angry by offering sacrifices to the false god Baal on the housetops. And they poured out drink offerings to other idol gods. The Babylonian army will burn down those houses.

Jer_51:17 But people are so stupid. They don't understand what God has done. Skilled workers make statues of false gods. Those statues are only false gods. They show how foolish those workers are. Those statues are not alive.

Eze_14:6 "So tell the family of Israel, 'This is what the Lord GOD says: Come back to me and leave your filthy idols. Turn away from those terrible, false gods.

Eze_16:19 I gave you bread, honey, and oil, but you gave that food to your idols. You offered them as a sweet smell to please your false gods. You acted like a prostitute with those false gods!" This is what the Lord GOD said.

Eze_16:20 "You and I had children together, but you took our children. You killed them and gave them to those false gods! But that is only some of the evil things you did when you were unfaithful to me and went to those false gods.

Eze_16:21 You slaughtered my sons and then passed them through the fire to those false gods.

Eze_16:24 "After all those things, you made a mound for worshiping that false god. You built those places for worshiping false gods on every street corner.

Eze_16:36 This is what the Lord GOD says: "You have spent your money and let your lovers and filthy gods see your naked body and have sex with you. You have killed your children and poured out their blood. This was your gift to those false gods.

Eze_18:11 He does things his father never did. He goes to the mountains and eats foods offered to false gods. He commits the sin of adultery with his neighbor's wife.

Eze_20:31 You are giving the same kind of gifts. You are putting your children in the fire as a gift to your false gods. You are still making yourself filthy with these filthy idols today! Do you really think that I should let you come to me and ask me for advice? I am the Lord GOD. By my life, I swear that I will not answer your questions or give you advice!

Eze_22:9 In Jerusalem, people tell lies in order to kill innocent people. They go to the mountains to worship false gods and then come back to Jerusalem to eat their fellowship meals. "'In Jerusalem, people commit many sexual sins.

Hos_2:13 "Israel served false gods, so I will punish her. She burned incense to those false gods. She dressed up--she put on her jewelry and nose ring. Then she went to her lovers and forgot me." This is what the LORD has said.

Hos_4:12 My people are asking pieces of wood for advice. They think those sticks will answer them! They have chased after those false gods like prostitutes and have left their own God.

Hos_11:2 But the more I called the Israelites, the more they left me. The Israelites gave sacrifices to the false gods and burned incense to the idols.

Mic_5:13 I will destroy your statues of false gods. I will pull down your memorial stones. You will not worship what your hands have made.

Mic_5:14 I will destroy the Asherah poles and your false gods.

1Jn_5:21 So, dear children, keep yourselves away from false gods.
 

101G

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You can call Jesus what ever you like .. but he was not God- The Father.
well, if not, as always I ask those to take my acid test, it prove if your answer is Gold or a cheap imitation.

is the person in Isaiah 44:24 the same person in John 1:3 "who made all things" yes or no?

many have answered correct and many have lied. your choice. this is where the christian (sheep) is separated from the christian (Goats). :D

PICJAG
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"
 

101G

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it's just amazing how people can say and believe a thing but when the bible don't approve or support what one say or believe, why continue in the same old belief? why not seek God for the TRUTH? we all have been taught wrong, but don't blame anyone, especially our teachers, for they only taught what they was taught. the only one you can blame for not knowing the TRUTH is "YOU". when the truth is available why not seek it. what will it cost "YOU?" nothing ............. but only a LOST of being IGNORANT. well is that worth it.


PICJAG
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"
 

Heyzeus

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IDOLS
Deu_16:22 You must not set up special stones for worshiping false gods. The LORD your God hates them.

Deu_27:15 'Cursed is the one who makes a false god and puts it in its secret place. These false gods are only statues that some worker makes from wood, stone or metal. The LORD hates these things!' "Then all the people will answer, 'Amen!'

Jdg_3:7 The LORD saw that the Israelites did evil things. They forgot about the LORD their God and served the false gods Baal and Asherah.

Jdg_6:10 Then I said to you, 'I am the LORD your God. You will live in the land of the Amorites, but you must not worship their false gods.' But you did not obey me."

Jdg_10:6 Again the Israelites did what the LORD said was wrong. They began worshiping the false gods Baal and the Ashtoreth. They also worshiped the gods of the people of Aram, the gods of the people of Sidon, the gods of the Moabites, the gods of the Ammonites, and the gods of the Philistines. The Israelites left the LORD and stopped serving him.

1Sa_12:10 But your ancestors cried to the LORD for help. They said, 'We have sinned. We left the LORD, and we served the false gods Baal and Ashtoreth. But now save us from our enemies, and we will serve you.'

1Ch_5:25 But they sinned against the God their ancestors had worshiped. They began worshiping the false gods of the people God had destroyed, the people who had lived in the land before them.

2Ch_33:4 Manasseh built altars for false gods in the LORD'S Temple.

Psa_31:6 I hate those who worship false gods. I trust only in the LORD.

Psa_78:58 They built high places and made God angry. They built statues of false gods and made him jealous.

Psa_106:36 They began worshiping the false gods those people worshiped. And their idols became a trap.

Psa_106:38 They killed their innocent sons and daughters and offered them to the false gods of Canaan. So the land was polluted with the sin of murder.

Isa_41:24 "Look, you false gods are worthless. You cannot do anything. Only some horrible fool would want to worship you."

Isa_42:17 But some of them have left me. They say to their gold statues, 'You are my gods.' They trust their false gods, but they will be disappointed and shamed.

Isa_45:16 Many people make false gods, but they will be disappointed. All of them will go away ashamed.

Isa_57:5 All you want is to worship false gods under every green tree. You kill children by every stream and sacrifice them in the rocky places.

Isa_57:13 When you need help, you cry to those false gods that you have gathered around you. Let them help you! But I tell you, the wind will blow them all away. A puff of wind will blow them all away. But the one who depends on me will get the land I promised and enjoy my holy mountain."

Jer_9:14 The people of Judah lived their own way. They were stubborn. They followed the false god Baal. Their fathers taught them to follow those false gods."

Jer_10:11 The Lord says, "Tell them this message: 'These false gods did not make heaven and earth. They will be destroyed and disappear from heaven and earth.'"

Jer_16:13 I will throw you out of this country. I will force you to go to a foreign land. You will go to a land that you and your ancestors never knew. There you can serve false gods all you want to. I will not help you or show you any favors.'

Jer_17:2 Their children remember the altars that were dedicated to false gods. They remember the wooden poles that were dedicated to Asherah. They remember those things under the green trees and on the hills.

Jer_19:13 'The houses in Jerusalem will become as "dirty" as this place, Topheth. The kings' palaces will be ruined like this place, Topheth, because the people worshiped false gods on the roofs of their houses. They worshiped the stars and burned sacrifices to honor them. They gave drink offerings to false gods.'"

Jer_32:29 The Babylonian army is already attacking the city of Jerusalem. They will soon enter the city and start a fire. They will burn down this city. There are houses in this city where the people of Jerusalem made me angry by offering sacrifices to the false god Baal on the housetops. And they poured out drink offerings to other idol gods. The Babylonian army will burn down those houses.

Jer_51:17 But people are so stupid. They don't understand what God has done. Skilled workers make statues of false gods. Those statues are only false gods. They show how foolish those workers are. Those statues are not alive.

Eze_14:6 "So tell the family of Israel, 'This is what the Lord GOD says: Come back to me and leave your filthy idols. Turn away from those terrible, false gods.

Eze_16:19 I gave you bread, honey, and oil, but you gave that food to your idols. You offered them as a sweet smell to please your false gods. You acted like a prostitute with those false gods!" This is what the Lord GOD said.

Eze_16:20 "You and I had children together, but you took our children. You killed them and gave them to those false gods! But that is only some of the evil things you did when you were unfaithful to me and went to those false gods.

Eze_16:21 You slaughtered my sons and then passed them through the fire to those false gods.

Eze_16:24 "After all those things, you made a mound for worshiping that false god. You built those places for worshiping false gods on every street corner.

Eze_16:36 This is what the Lord GOD says: "You have spent your money and let your lovers and filthy gods see your naked body and have sex with you. You have killed your children and poured out their blood. This was your gift to those false gods.

Eze_18:11 He does things his father never did. He goes to the mountains and eats foods offered to false gods. He commits the sin of adultery with his neighbor's wife.

Eze_20:31 You are giving the same kind of gifts. You are putting your children in the fire as a gift to your false gods. You are still making yourself filthy with these filthy idols today! Do you really think that I should let you come to me and ask me for advice? I am the Lord GOD. By my life, I swear that I will not answer your questions or give you advice!

Eze_22:9 In Jerusalem, people tell lies in order to kill innocent people. They go to the mountains to worship false gods and then come back to Jerusalem to eat their fellowship meals. "'In Jerusalem, people commit many sexual sins.

Hos_2:13 "Israel served false gods, so I will punish her. She burned incense to those false gods. She dressed up--she put on her jewelry and nose ring. Then she went to her lovers and forgot me." This is what the LORD has said.

Hos_4:12 My people are asking pieces of wood for advice. They think those sticks will answer them! They have chased after those false gods like prostitutes and have left their own God.

Hos_11:2 But the more I called the Israelites, the more they left me. The Israelites gave sacrifices to the false gods and burned incense to the idols.

Mic_5:13 I will destroy your statues of false gods. I will pull down your memorial stones. You will not worship what your hands have made.

Mic_5:14 I will destroy the Asherah poles and your false gods.

1Jn_5:21 So, dear children, keep yourselves away from false gods.

Not sure what your point is in posting all this . .. as none of it changes the Fact that the Israelite's believed in a Divine Pantheon - the existence of other Gods.
 

Heyzeus

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well, if not, as always I ask those to take my acid test, it prove if your answer is Gold or a cheap imitation.

is the person in Isaiah 44:24 the same person in John 1:3 "who made all things" yes or no?

many have answered correct and many have lied. your choice. this is where the christian (sheep) is separated from the christian (Goats). :D

PICJAG
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"

1) No - as a "Person" did not make all things .. nor is the God of Jesus YHWH by my reckoning
2) what difference does it make ? What does Isaiah have to do with the Son not being "The Father" other than zero.

Jesus himself tells you over and over that he is not "The Father" ... why do you not believe him ?