All the fulness of Deity dwells in Him Bodily !
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Waiting on him
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yes sin less yet sinful flesh just as mine or there’d have been no temptation.
I never thought you would ask ! :) As it turns out .. we know quite about this fellow .. both from Scripture and from external sources - archaeological, historical, and so on ... which confirm what the Bible says.
I already gave you Psalm 82 - Where El is mentioned by name as head of the Council - and other Gods are mentioned ..
I also gave you Deut 32:8 where El is mentioned by Name.
El is also the one worshiped in the Golden Calf Saga - Bull El - and his Consort Asherah. Who Joshua was referring to in his farewell address .. referring to the Gods that the Israelites worshiped while in captivity - and the forefathers before Abraham.
So who was Abraham's Dad worshiping .. ? Terah - who is the Chief God .. "the Most High" "the Father" "Creator" God of the Mountain
That would be El of course .. at the top as they were living in Ur .. and thats what those folks .. and all the peoples around them believed.. Terah was an idol maker ..so was likely worshiping other Gods ..
Modern Scholarship states that El was the God of Abraham .. "El Shaddai" God of the Mountain and so on .. which makes sense.. he keeps the high God .. and discards the Rest.. but in any case .. El was the God that the Israelites in captivity considered to be Chief of the Divine Pantheon ..
At the time of Psalm 82 ... everyone knows who El is ... knows the name .. the Israelite's speak the same language as the canaanites - Ancient Hebrew derives from Canaanite alphabet .. and everyone knows who El is .. and what the Council of El means.
The Israelite's don't actually pay much attention to YHWH ... they spend most of their time worshiping other gods - as stated in the Bible .. Solomon was building Temples to Child Sacrifice Gods -
Moses Takes off for a few weeks and they go right back to worshiping Bull-El/ Asherah ... led by his own Brother Aaron. Old habits die hard.
Joshua - asks the people to make a choice in his farewell speech . Choose the YHWH - the war God that has helped us make it to the promised land .. or continue worshiping the other Gods .. Gods of your ancestors .. telling us that the Israelite's had already reverted back to the old ways..
Shortly after Joshua dies .. we are told they go right back to the old ways ... with very few pauses ... by the time we get to Elijah - 800 BC or so .. He is the only Prophet left in all of Israel to the Most High ... Asherah and Baal prophets are 500 and 450 or some such thing. Note that El is never mentioned ... Son Baal gets alot of Grief ... Father-Son - Goddess/Consort Trinity was prominent .. but we never hear El being slandered .. like the Baal's (many sons of El) and Asherah .. Baal in particular was a rival to YHWH for attention to the writers of the OT.
anyway .. almost no one in Israel is worshiping YHWH .. and havn't been for quite some time ... at the time of Elijah ... and for over a century and a half after .. until the find the book of the Law during Josiah's reign round 640 BC.
The Chief God of the Canaanite Pantheon was also El ... and these peoples had shared religious traditions - never mind knowing each others Traditions .. but for every Culture El was in their religious pantheon as this mysterious dude at the top of the food chain .. the peoples worshiping other lower Gods ... and each city having a personal God.. and of course a War Gods like YHWH .. who were higher up on the food chain .... all kinds of variations .. but with El at the Top ..
Near all the people at the time - including the Israelite's - believed in the existence of other Gods .... but this did not make them Polytheists ..as they were only to worship 1...
The change to strict monotheism happened under the Persians ... society had been turned upside down .. 3000 years of Sumerian (Sumerians branched off into Babylonians and Assyrians round 2000 BC) rule overturned .. language changed .. and so did religion. The Persians were very religiously tolerant ... and had monotheistic religions such as Zoroastrianism .. King Cyrus of Persia is described in the Bible as the "Annointed one of God" .. and a good fit for the Messianic Tradition in some ways ... perhaps the start of Israel being returned to former Glory - as the promised Messiah was supposed to do.
Even though this period .. and the move to strict monotheism .. the past was retained in the Biblical Texts like Job and others.
The dangers of the 700-900 AD .. when the MT was created .. main source document for today's OT - unfortunately they had to wipe some of the "other divinities" language out of the Text...
So yeah .. El is the Big Guy .. God of Adam .. God of Noah .. God of Abraham - YHWH a son ...eventually takes over all the Characteristics of El
You know how we know it was El that was the God of Noah don't you ? .. Cause Noah and Shem were still around during the time of Abraham ..and the flood has happened only 300 years ago ... so not too many people .. and the ones in Sumer are all related .. and can trace their lineage back to Shem .. so when you meet someone .. first thing you ask is "how are we related" and you not too far back and you find the connection.
Thing is .. all these people ... have El as Chief of the Pantheon Worshiping the God of their ancestors .. as we are told in Joshua..
So Shem's son Arphaxad .. gave birth to Shelah Eber Peleg. So Peleg's great grandfather is Shem's son .. and there are not many people yet ..and all these folks Noah/Shem are still alive .. so they would be worshiping the same God ... and they were. Rue Sarug Nahor Terah
So Peleg is Terah's great great Grandfather - the population has grown .. and they are worshiping other Gods .. but El is still Top of the food chain.
Noah and Shem are likely living in the caves of Mountains at this point :) perhaps attending some annual celebration that would go on in their name .. giving Praise to the High God El ... Chief God of the Shemites .. the Sumerian Pantheon.
I'll bet you don't know what my screen name means without looking it up .
talk about not knowing rofl.......................
Waiting on him
Well-Known Member
Well He didn’t come for His belly, the money or the praise of men He came to reconcile the men to God.
Everything charge that you laid, could be laid against you. You didn't even attempt to prove your point.
This is nonsense, and is not by necessity, true.
It is why Jesus said this profound thing. "Blessed are the pure in heart, they will see God"
When God came and touched us through Jesus, He exalted us up to be His companions and friends.
That is something very profound. And it is the whole point of Jesus being God, the Messiah, the embodiment of the Father on earth.
And it is your perspective with its certainty and dismissiveness which reveals why you cannot see another perspective.
You will have to do much better than that if you care to give God glory. But, I wouldn't dare, for the more one attempts to justify the doctrine of the trinity, the more that they defame God beyond repair.
There is a distinction being made between God and His precedential creation, Jesus.
Why wasn't the Holy Spirit mentioned in any of those doxologies that you cited?
There is a distinction being made between God and His precedential creation, Jesus.
Why wasn't the Holy Spirit mentioned in any of those doxologies that you cited?
Yes .. enough with the circular logic fallacy 101. El-YHWH -Jeshua - all one .. Jesus was El .. Got it .. The simple point is that none of the people of the day meant "Jesus" when they used the term "Lord" it is circular logic to claim retroactively that this was actually Jesus they were worshiping ... to prove that this is what Paul was referring to when he said Lord - and we are to believe meant YHWH .. rather than Jesus or that he was looking at them as one.
Sorry - fallacy don't cut it in these parts !
but - at the end of the day .. it really doesn't matter what name we give to the most high ... or if Jesus is the same level as God .. because those things are beyond our pay grade. We just need to figure out how to get through the pearly gates... and none of this has any bearing on that .
You will be Judged - you do not have a free pass .. no getting around Judgement day .. but you can get through it ... following a simple rule.
and you have heard the rest of this sermon.
Waiting on him
Well-Known Member
My point was that of all the verses that you quoted, there is always a distinction between God, and the son. That is, within the entire pericope. You fail to get the message. Like I said several times already, definitively, eisegesis is isolating passages. Not one of you verses said God the son, god-man, hypostatic union, incarnation or anything as such. They merely asserted Christ's perfection (image of God), and his consequent exaltation.
You cannot hypothesize a god-man, an incomprehensible concept, with random isolated verses. This is elementary reasoning and exegesis, it shouldn't need to be stipulated. For now you have painted yourself in a corner trying to explain the Atonement in a judiciously sound manner, and trying to explain where the Holy Spirit is seated - to the left-hand side of God?
You are correct - and in some kind of mental stasis - unable to function - I get it.
As I said to your friend - there is a light at the end of the Tunnel .. It matters not what we call "the most high" Creator - Father and so on
Speaking of names .. did you figure out my nick yet .. its much more interesting than yours .. and answers to the above creed.
EL-YHWH-Jeshua .. it matters not. What matters is how to get through the pearly gates.. and there is not "Get past Judgement Card"
but you can get through it .. following a simple Rule .. Don't be doin to oders What you hate.
Rabbai Hillel .. whom Jesus is Quoting in Matt 7:12 .. and for God reason ... Spirit darn touch dat Famous Rabbi - 110 BC - to 10 AD
Perhaps this is who Jesus sat with in the Temple .. as a young man
In any case - Buddha cited the Same Rule .. as did Confucius .. and varous Law Codes .. Hamurrabi ... and of course Leviticus.
Stood the test of time this one .. through the various incarnations of our Lord - The world was not Godless prior to Jesus was it ? Give God a little credit ... I do ... but even if you don't...
History is speaking the Truth to you - even Islam has this rule .. but we don't listen... ok .. so we don't listen to History..
So how about we listen to Rabbi Hillel .. who when asked Teach me the Torah by some advocate - responded Don't do to others What you Hate .. the rest is all commentary.
Well Fancy that Do unto others - "The rule that sums up the Law and the Prophets" ..looks like Jesus chimed in his 2 cents on this one as well...
OK .. so we got a couple of bells ringing here .. History .. all the sages .. Leviticus- El-YHWH .. and Hamurrabi .. obviously in the name of El .. the code send down to Hamurrabi by El .. ..
Now we have Jesus on board .. bases his whole teachings on this rule ... the rock on which his teachings rest ..
Paul and James both chime in on the same tune later
ding .. ding .. ding .. What tune you listing to ? Yeall on the free pass bus .. no worries .. you can do that and a follow the rule .. and you will be A - OK .. good to go ... all bases covered.
you do want all bases covered don't you ?
Never said that.
I said a man was MADE God by all of what his God consists of entering into his spirit body..
No, I am saying Jesus was made good by the infilling of the Holy Ghost and letting it lead him daily through his life.
It kept him from sinning, as the first Adam had failed in.
Jesus knew he was a redo of the first Adam, and had a course to run..
The incarnationist debunks this Biblical theme and says the last Adam was God himself...debunking Paul's analogy completely.
Yes.
If he was not full of the Holy Ghost, then he would have sinned and become a sinner.
Notice, the Holy Ghost left him on the cross as he was made to be sin for us.
God cannot be made to be sin, correct?...
For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
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