All the fulness of Deity dwells in Him Bodily !

[FollowHim]

sure and mark did not write mark, luke did not write luke............

I am a scholar, so if Paul left out this word, or that phrase, it was not Paul, but some other mysterious imposter at another date.
What I find interesting, is on forums I have been sharing for many years, and my tone and way of sharing is identifiable to many.
It is the chain of thought, emphasis and emotional empathy that are expressed. These make up an individual.

Clearly each author has these traits, so various letters etc. bear these hallmarks which others do not.
Peter, James and John have their own styles that stands out like Pauls.
It is clear Hebrews is similar to Paul, but not quite. But for me Ephesians and its expressions match Paul style and thrust of argument and point. It is odd to me why people would want to disown this theology, unless the underlying intention is just to cause doubt, and undermine the authority of scripture and the faith people hold it in. I am sure if over the years you looked at my writing you would find differences and style variations, which to these guys would mean a different author. It is like a conspiracy thinker, each shadow holds the deep state working against us, when shades of emphasis are just part of how we express ourselves.

My kids continually say I am not expressing myself properly when they want half a sentence to mean the same as a finished paragraph. It is difficult to fake Paul, because he packs in so much to his analogies, which the other apostles do not use in the same way.
God bless you

 

[Heyzeus]

You are replaying a humanist view of the crucifixion. Jesus was talking about His emotional state, not the state of truth but of emotional relationship. If Jesus's crucifixion was just a holiday with the guys, a painful medicine with adequate pain relief, how could this be suffering or sin put an innocent man? For this to be difficult and meaningful Jesus had to be limited, had to suffer like any human would and at the end still say I forgive them rather than I am going to take revenge.

And this is the point of the gospel, love brought into our world and played out is ways we can understand, with our relative value system and relationships within family and society and country. It is this comparison that changed my life, and the path of transformation. How can I trust God with the things I hold most dear, unless I know I am secure with Him. And without the suffering and sacrifice, holding open the door to the last moment, doing the impossible, I cannot gamble everything on walking this walk.

It is this emotional equation that is the power of the cross and the statement of victory and overcoming that Jesus walked.
We are emotional creatures who feel things and then justify our choices and reaction through logical deduction. We try and hide our emotional side to limit manipulation not realising we manipulate ourselves and others all the time to just get through a day.

There is a belief that holds Jesus was spirit who appeared to suffer but did not on the cross, which is why Jesus's distress was important to bring out and demonstrate. And if you have met any parent who suffers for their children, you will know the pain is real, but worth it to give the opportunity to the kid. Jesus emphasises this value system in terms of reward, who deserves reward if you love you friends and those you like, but to love your enemy, or do die for others, that is worthy of reward. God bless you

What is this .. a "Love in" here ? "Jesus was talking about his emotional state" ? - that's nice to know Jesus is emoting - but we are talking about the identity of that person hanging on the cross .. not their emotional state .. was it Jesus - or was it "The Father - The almighty God" hanging there.

If you want to claim 3 separate and distinct personages - vunderbar .. welcome to heresy 101..

There 3 different "Substances" hypostasis - that make the Godhead ... but the Godhead is one substance "homoousios"
This illustrates the inherent contradiction A) same substance B) not the same substance C) Both = contradiction "unless"

Unless what ? because you desperately want to claim C) and not be in contradiction.

Unless - these distinct emanations from the Same Godhead - are given names and the ability to act individually - and comparmentalize information.

Do you like where this is going so far ... heresy bound we are.

 

[Heyzeus]

sure and mark did not write mark, luke did not write luke............

They are thought to have written both documents. What are you talking about ?

The author of Mark was a disciple of Peter .. of Luke a disciple of Paul

We have no clue who the Author of Ephesians is .. we do know that Paul's name was ascribed to the work .. but there is general agreement he was not the Author of this work dated (80-100AD) as he had been dead for 2 decades. Ephesians

Much scripture came out of the period just after the destruction of the Temple - and this was one of them.

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

why do you write resurrection when you do not believe in Jesus Resurrection bodily(flesh) a real man, real body with real crucifixion scars, the same body in the grave was Resurrected ?

<<you do not believe in Jesus Resurrection bodily(flesh) a real man, real body>> You meant YOU-- because I believe in Jesus' Resurrection a real man, of a real body of real bodily flesh THAT IS FLESH WITH BLOOD TISSUE AS WELL AS BONE TISSUE.

And I believe in Jesus' Resurrection bodily the real and SAME BODY OF THE IMMACULATE LAMB OF GOD STANDING ON THE MOUNT whom "you crucified but God RAISED Christ and Lord", "the same yesterday today and forevermore" with NO <scars>, the same body the same Person that was buried in the grave and raised TO THE FOREORDAINED PREDESTINATED PRESERVED SPOTLESS SINLESS ETERNAL GOD THE SON OF GOD BECOME THE GLORIOUS IN VICTORY GOD THE SON OF MAN, "that MAN perfect and upright the ONE and ONLY who feared God" of all men, "the Servant of the LORD like Him there is none in the earth that fears God not for gain."

Note, NO <crucifixion scars>, NOTE, <the same body in the grave that was Resurrected> immaculate like He SUFFERED, DIED AND WAS BURIED immaculate.
Yet you allege Jesus bled his blood out unto death like an animal sacrifice LIKE THE ROMAN CATHOLICS TAUGHT YOU -- NOT SCRIPTURE!

 

[ChristisGod]

They are thought to have written both documents. What are you talking about ?

The author of Mark was a disciple of Peter .. of Luke a disciple of Paul

We have no clue who the Author of Ephesians is .. we do know that Paul's name was ascribed to the work .. but there is general agreement he was not the Author of this work dated (80-100AD) as he had been dead for 2 decades. Ephesians

Much scripture came out of the period just after the destruction of the Temple - and this was one of them.

And Paul addresses his readers like always in

Ephesians 1
Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God,
To God’s holy people in Ephesus, the faithful in Christ Jesus:
2 Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Corinthians 1
Paul, called to be an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, and our brother Sosthenes,
2 To the church of God in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus and called to be his holy people, together with all those everywhere who call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ—their Lord and ours:
3 Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Galatians 1
Paul, an apostle—sent not from men nor by a man, but by Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised him from the dead— 2 and all the brothers and sisters with me,
To the churches in Galatia:
3 Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ,

Romans 1
Paul, a servant of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle and set apart for the gospel of God— 2 the gospel he promised beforehand through his prophets in the Holy Scriptures 3 regarding his Son, who as to his earthly life was a descendant of David, 4 and who through the Spirit of holiness was appointed the Son of God in power by his resurrection from the dead: Jesus Christ our Lord. 5 Through him we received grace and apostleship to call all the Gentiles to the obedience that comes from faith for his name’s sake. 6 And you also are among those Gentiles who are called to belong to Jesus Christ.
7 To all in Rome who are loved by God and called to be his holy people:
Grace and peace to you from God our Father and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

Philippians 1
Paul and Timothy, servants of Christ Jesus,
To all God’s holy people in Christ Jesus at Philippi, together with the overseers and deacons:
2 Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Colossians 1
Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, and Timothy our brother,
2 To God’s holy people in Colossae, the faithful brothers and sisters in Christ:
Grace and peace to you from God our Father

1 Thessalonians 1
Paul, Silas and Timothy,
To the church of the Thessalonians in God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ:
Grace and peace to you.

Titus 1
Paul, a servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ to further the faith of God’s elect and their knowledge of the truth that leads to godliness— 2 in the hope of eternal life, which God, who does not lie, promised before the beginning of time, 3 and which now at his appointed season he has brought to light through the preaching entrusted to me by the command of God our Savior,
4 To Titus, my true son in our common faith:
Grace and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Savior.

Beginning to see a pattern of the Apostle Paul yet ?

 

[Heyzeus]

And Paul addresses his readers like always in

Ephesians 1
Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God,
To God’s holy people in Ephesus, the faithful in Christ Jesus:
2 Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Corinthians 1
Paul, called to be an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, and our brother Sosthenes,
2 To the church of God in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus and called to be his holy people, together with all those everywhere who call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ—their Lord and ours:
3 Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Galatians 1
Paul, an apostle—sent not from men nor by a man, but by Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised him from the dead— 2 and all the brothers and sisters with me,
To the churches in Galatia:
3 Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ,

Romans 1
Paul, a servant of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle and set apart for the gospel of God— 2 the gospel he promised beforehand through his prophets in the Holy Scriptures 3 regarding his Son, who as to his earthly life was a descendant of David, 4 and who through the Spirit of holiness was appointed the Son of God in power by his resurrection from the dead: Jesus Christ our Lord. 5 Through him we received grace and apostleship to call all the Gentiles to the obedience that comes from faith for his name’s sake. 6 And you also are among those Gentiles who are called to belong to Jesus Christ.
7 To all in Rome who are loved by God and called to be his holy people:
Grace and peace to you from God our Father and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

Philippians 1
Paul and Timothy, servants of Christ Jesus,
To all God’s holy people in Christ Jesus at Philippi, together with the overseers and deacons:
2 Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Colossians 1
Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, and Timothy our brother,
2 To God’s holy people in Colossae, the faithful brothers and sisters in Christ:
Grace and peace to you from God our Father

1 Thessalonians 1
Paul, Silas and Timothy,
To the church of the Thessalonians in God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ:
Grace and peace to you.

Titus 1
Paul, a servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ to further the faith of God’s elect and their knowledge of the truth that leads to godliness— 2 in the hope of eternal life, which God, who does not lie, promised before the beginning of time, 3 and which now at his appointed season he has brought to light through the preaching entrusted to me by the command of God our Savior,
4 To Titus, my true son in our common faith:
Grace and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Savior.

Beginning to see a pattern of the Apostle Paul yet ?

Of course there is a pattern - talked about in the link given you - hence why Ephesians is called deutero Pauline - it borrows from scripture that Paul actually did write ..but was not written by Paul.

The Author of Matt also uses all of Mark to create his Gospel - around the same time period (80-100AD) after the fall of the temple when Christianity was trying to figure out its identity.

The difference with Matt is that this author did not try to pass his off as Mark's work. He took the original story - and added to it - there were no other gospels at the time recording the life of Christ .. so this was an attempt to fill in the gaps .. using material that is thought to have existed - perhaps from the original Matt - ..

 

[ChristisGod]

Of course there is a pattern - talked about in the link given you - hence why Ephesians is called deutero Pauline - it borrows from scripture that Paul actually did write ..but was not written by Paul.

The Author of Matt also uses all of Mark to create his Gospel - around the same time period (80-100AD) after the fall of the temple when Christianity was trying to figure out its identity.

The difference with Matt is that this author did not try to pass his off as Mark's work. He took the original story - and added to it - there were no other gospels at the time recording the life of Christ .. so this was an attempt to fill in the gaps .. using material that is thought to have existed - perhaps from the original Matt - ..

no need for links when scripture is clear on its Authors, specifically Paul.

 

[justbyfaith]

2) Who are you to judge - What is good

See 1 Corinthians 7:40-b.

3) repetition of premise is not proof of claim

It is, however, a statement of faith...and faith is the evidence of things not seen (Hebrews 11:1).

The head is part of the body yet is not the body. The Fullness of God is the Head - Christ; the Body the Church is not God nor is it the Fullness of God.

Eph 1:22, And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,
Eph 1:23, Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

and it isn't Sataniel

Who is sataniel? Are you trying to put the person of satan in a more positive light?

If you are, then this is good reason to reject your theology completely.

Any good discussion of Ephesians should start out with the fact that Paul didn't write it

Clearly, Paul is the human author of Ephesians (Ephesians 1:1).

Now if a God wanted to make an impression - he would get down off the cross and hurl a few lightning bolts .. then say "See .. I told you - now your in for it and restore Israel to former glory like in the old days.

but - no in some form of masochistic bliss .. this God forgets who he is - and starts calling out for himself - and saying that some God has forsaken him.

Folks watching don't see lightning - what they see is a regular crucifixion .. like any old day in Rome..

1Co 1:18, For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
1Co 1:19, For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
1Co 1:20, Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
1Co 1:21, For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

Are Jesus and God separate or not separate - mentally ? --- A) separate B) not separate C) Both

Answering just A or B is heresy - but denying B is heresy. Denial of A is not heresy

There is a fourth option, D) they are distinct.

Was it God hanging there on that tree or was it not ? ..

It was God.

or shall we compartmentalize God into different emanations - and give these different emanations personal names .. and now I like where this conversation is going..

Why would you like where a conversation is going when it is headed down the path towards heresy?

.. welcome to heresy 101..

Apparently, you are the teacher of the class.

Do you like where this is going so far ... heresy bound we are.

Because you appear to be determined to teach us heresy and to get us to believe in it.

We have no clue who the Author of Ephesians is .. we do know that Paul's name was ascribed to the work .. but there is general agreement he was not the Author of this work dated (80-100AD) as he had been dead for 2 decades.

I do not subscribe to liberal scholarship...it is the devil's way of casting doubt on the word of the Lord; something that he has done from the beginning (i.e. "Hath God really said...?" (Genesis 3:1)

 

[Heyzeus]

It is, however, a statement of faith...and faith is the evidence of things not seen

Repetition of premise is not proof of claim ... sorry

Who is sataniel? Are you trying to put the person of satan in a more positive light?

If you are, then this is good reason to reject your theology completely.

Yet another fallacious ad hom attack instead of making a coherent claim.

Clearly, Paul is the human author of Ephesians (Ephesians 1:1).

According to modern scholarship - its pretty clear that Paul didn't write Ephesians .. hence the dating of 80-100

What does any of this have to do with your lack of understanding of the Trinity? and if it was God hanging on the Tree - how come he forgot who he was ?

 

[Truther]

You're not saying Jesus wasn't good? You're not being honest!

And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God

 

[FollowHim]

What is this .. a "Love in" here ? "Jesus was talking about his emotional state" ? - that's nice to know Jesus is emoting - but we are talking about the identity of that person hanging on the cross .. not their emotional state .. was it Jesus - or was it "The Father - The almighty God" hanging there.

If you want to claim 3 separate and distinct personages - vunderbar .. welcome to heresy 101..

There 3 different "Substances" hypostasis - that make the Godhead ... but the Godhead is one substance "homoousios"
This illustrates the inherent contradiction A) same substance B) not the same substance C) Both = contradiction "unless"

Unless what ? because you desperately want to claim C) and not be in contradiction.

Unless - these distinct emanations from the Same Godhead - are given names and the ability to act individually - and comparmentalize information.

Do you like where this is going so far ... heresy bound we are.

You are trying to define what binds Jesus and the Father?

I am just observing. God testifies to us. If one says Jesus and the Father are one but also separate, however you describe this it has to fit this description.

We are made in the image of God. His love dwells in us. If we connect with Jesus we come home.

We do not understand our link to our parents but we love them. Our understanding does not change the relationship, but bitterness and hatred does.

For me it is amazing how those who do not love Jesus do not accept the trinity.

God bless you

 

[Truther]

You totally ignored my comment!
"Jesus was and is good because He was and is God."

He was made God after being resurrected by his God from the dead.

Yes, he sure is good.

 

[Truther]

Yes, because Jesus is God. And He was always good in spite of you saying He wasn't good.

He is not only good now, but perfectly good and cannot be tempted by Satan or have an opposing will with God anymore.

His death and resurrection by his God changed everything.

Now, his good God fully indwells him, bodily, which makes him not only good, but the omnipresent God by default.

This also makes him the express image of his invisible God, the everlasting Father and the mighty God etc.

 

[ChristisGod]

He was made God after being resurrected by his God from the dead.

Yes, he sure is good.

God cannot be made, God is Eternal.

But hanks for admitting He is God just not the biblical God.

next.................................

 

[Heyzeus]

You are trying to define what binds Jesus and the Father?

I am just observing. God testifies to us. If one says Jesus and the Father are one but also separate, however you describe this it has to fit this description.

We are made in the image of God. His love dwells in us. If we connect with Jesus we come home.

We do not understand our link to our parents but we love them. Our understanding does not change the relationship, but bitterness and hatred does.

For me it is amazing how those who do not love Jesus do not accept the trinity.

God bless you

I wasn't trying to define what binds Jesus and the Father .. though that is an interesting idea. I was stating how the Trinity defines what binds Jesus to the Father.

How those who live Jesus do not accept the Trinity ?? accept what ? what should folks accept .. the vast and overwhelming majority do not know what the Trinity is/means - including yourself... otherwise you would have better understand my post which answers the question you pose.

If one says Jesus and the Father are one but also separate, however you describe this it has to fit this description.

I address your specific question in my previous post ?!

A) "Of the same substance" - Homoousios
B) 3 different substances 3 Hypostasis

The Trinity states that there are 3 different substances - but all are of the same substance.

Well initially it was just Jesus and God that were of the same substance in 325 AD -- the HS came in later as did the 3 different Personages - which is a natural progression but important distinction.

So .. the 3 are connected - but each have distinct personalities - are compartmentalized from each other - one knows things the other doesn't - but they all share a common base of knowledge as well.

In Greek Religious Philosophy - cosmology - there are only two kinds of substances 1) that which God is made of 2) that which everything else is made of. If you don't understand this .. you can not understand the Trinity - Full Stop. .. and how many people do .. did you ? .NO - the only reason anyone here knows this is because I told them.. get it .. got it.. good.

What the Trinity then describes is a unified source - a unified substance - the stuff God is made of .. Gia -- the source of all ability to control matter through force of will -

This is the Godhead. Within this Godhead - there are 3 different substances .. like protons - neutrons and electrons inside of an atom but in a different way than this simplistic description .

So out of this one substance - you have 3 different minds - .. or at least 2 different minds operating out of the same God stuff .. The substance has separated itself into 3 different manifestations - 3 different incarnations - 3 different emanations -

So that is what the Trinity States ... you then ask the question .. what is the nature of each ... "The Father" "Son" "Spirit"

With the Father/Son .. you had the whole procession debate -- does the Son proceed from the Father? and so on.

BUT - what does scripture tell us .. ? Scripture suggests that God is one - and that the Son is Subordinate to the Father .. proceeded from the father ..

So when this thing - this substance split into 3 - the Father came out first - and has different capabilities - than the Son. but even if you would claim they all existed like this for eternity - each one has different capabilities according to Scripture.

 

[ChristisGod]

I wasn't trying to define what binds Jesus and the Father .. though that is an interesting idea. I was stating how the Trinity defines what binds Jesus to the Father.

How those who live Jesus do not accept the Trinity ?? accept what ? what should folks accept .. the vast and overwhelming majority do not know what the Trinity is/means - including yourself... otherwise you would have better understand my post which answers the question you pose.



I address your specific question in my previous post ?!

A) "Of the same substance" - Homoousios
B) 3 different substances 3 Hypostasis

The Trinity states that there are 3 different substances - but all are of the same substance.

Well initially it was just Jesus and God that were of the same substance in 325 AD -- the HS came in later as did the 3 different Personages - which is a natural progression but important distinction.

So .. the 3 are connected - but each have distinct personalities - are compartmentalized from each other - one knows things the other doesn't - but they all share a common base of knowledge as well.

In Greek Religious Philosophy - cosmology - there are only two kinds of substances 1) that which God is made of 2) that which everything else is made of. If you don't understand this .. you can not understand the Trinity - Full Stop. .. and how many people do .. did you ? .NO - the only reason anyone here knows this is because I told them.. get it .. got it.. good.

What the Trinity then describes is a unified source - a unified substance - the stuff God is made of .. Gia -- the source of all ability to control matter through force of will -

This is the Godhead. Within this Godhead - there are 3 different substances .. like protons - neutrons and electrons inside of an atom but in a different way than this simplistic description .

So out of this one substance - you have 3 different minds - .. or at least 2 different minds operating out of the same God stuff .. The substance has separated itself into 3 different manifestations - 3 different incarnations - 3 different emanations -

So that is what the Trinity States ... you then ask the question .. what is the nature of each ... "The Father" "Son" "Spirit"

With the Father/Son .. you had the whole procession debate -- does the Son proceed from the Father? and so on.

BUT - what does scripture tell us .. ? Scripture suggests that God is one - and that the Son is Subordinate to the Father .. proceeded from the father ..

So when this thing - this substance split into 3 - the Father came out first - and has different capabilities - than the Son. but even if you would claim they all existed like this for eternity - each one has different capabilities according to Scripture.

nothing binds the Father and the Son. God is Immutable and Indivisible.

you should study the Attributes of God sometime.

 

[FollowHim]

What is this .. a "Love in" here ? "Jesus was talking about his emotional state" ? - that's nice to know Jesus is emoting - but we are talking about the identity of that person hanging on the cross .. not their emotional state .. was it Jesus - or was it "The Father - The almighty God" hanging there.

If you want to claim 3 separate and distinct personages - vunderbar .. welcome to heresy 101..

There 3 different "Substances" hypostasis - that make the Godhead ... but the Godhead is one substance "homoousios"
This illustrates the inherent contradiction A) same substance B) not the same substance C) Both = contradiction "unless"

Unless what ? because you desperately want to claim C) and not be in contradiction.

Unless - these distinct emanations from the Same Godhead - are given names and the ability to act individually - and comparmentalize information.

Do you like where this is going so far ... heresy bound we are.

What is this .. a "Love in" here ?

This phrase is a telling point.
The apostles did not understand Jesus and His relationship with the Father.
Jesus wanted to describe the oneness between Him and the Father, saying if one had seen Him you had seen the Father.
Yet Jesus is praying to the Father while declaring this oneness.

A photon is both a particle and a wave, it just depends how you are looking at it. The two states appear, yet they are different and seem contradictory yet the whole of our lives rely upon this reality. Matter is also energy, yet how we describe things are in the world we experience.

In our lives emotion and facts appear separate, like rational thought and conclusions, except conclusions are an emotional state which we use deductions to justify. It is why if we get the chain of thought wrong, we do not notice if we feel the conclusion is right. When I was young most of my life was governed by things I did not understand or felt, they just were. It was like a small aspect of my life represented who I was. Now most of my life represents who I am. Even so most of what I do, including writing here, is learnt reactions, and ways of expression. So if I find it hard to really define myself, how I am, how can I grasp describing Jesus and the Father other than how they describe themselves.

We are talking about God, the creator becoming man and speaking to us, in the simplest ways we can understand. And yet mortal man wants to stand up and say what is wrong or right in this description. If one cannot see the audacity in this approach then there is little hope for truly walking in the light. My audacity is when I value myself better than anyone else, little realising I am just like each brother and sister in Christ, and I love their expression of the Lords love and life in all its aspects. God bless you.

 

[FollowHim]

I wasn't trying to define what binds Jesus and the Father .. though that is an interesting idea. I was stating how the Trinity defines what binds Jesus to the Father.

How those who live Jesus do not accept the Trinity ?? accept what ? what should folks accept .. the vast and overwhelming majority do not know what the Trinity is/means - including yourself... otherwise you would have better understand my post which answers the question you pose.



I address your specific question in my previous post ?!

A) "Of the same substance" - Homoousios
B) 3 different substances 3 Hypostasis

The Trinity states that there are 3 different substances - but all are of the same substance.

Well initially it was just Jesus and God that were of the same substance in 325 AD -- the HS came in later as did the 3 different Personages - which is a natural progression but important distinction.

So .. the 3 are connected - but each have distinct personalities - are compartmentalized from each other - one knows things the other doesn't - but they all share a common base of knowledge as well.

In Greek Religious Philosophy - cosmology - there are only two kinds of substances 1) that which God is made of 2) that which everything else is made of. If you don't understand this .. you can not understand the Trinity - Full Stop. .. and how many people do .. did you ? .NO - the only reason anyone here knows this is because I told them.. get it .. got it.. good.

What the Trinity then describes is a unified source - a unified substance - the stuff God is made of .. Gia -- the source of all ability to control matter through force of will -

This is the Godhead. Within this Godhead - there are 3 different substances .. like protons - neutrons and electrons inside of an atom but in a different way than this simplistic description .

So out of this one substance - you have 3 different minds - .. or at least 2 different minds operating out of the same God stuff .. The substance has separated itself into 3 different manifestations - 3 different incarnations - 3 different emanations -

So that is what the Trinity States ... you then ask the question .. what is the nature of each ... "The Father" "Son" "Spirit"

With the Father/Son .. you had the whole procession debate -- does the Son proceed from the Father? and so on.

BUT - what does scripture tell us .. ? Scripture suggests that God is one - and that the Son is Subordinate to the Father .. proceeded from the father ..

So when this thing - this substance split into 3 - the Father came out first - and has different capabilities - than the Son. but even if you would claim they all existed like this for eternity - each one has different capabilities according to Scripture.

I think you have missed my point entirely. What is Christ becoming the atoning sacrifice mean? How can Jesus pay the price for sin?

There is a puzzle here unless sin is based on isolation, betrayal and distrust. For us to regain communion with the Father we must trust Him and believe He will accept us back no matter what. The price to display this trust and love is the cross. To come to earth and to let the lost kill God, kill innocence and love and not raise a finger, and in this one act demonstrate the open door through Jesus to the Father.

In many ways this the price, a life for a life, except it is about emotional reliance and reaching out, believing the one who could love us, does love us, and in our rebellion and sin we have become so lost, we locked the love away and decided to fight the world for the best we could get.

For all this to be true, Jesus had to be God. Jesus had to be what love is, and the Fathers heart and representation in human form. In many ways this is both absurd and beautiful, love speaking through righteousness, holiness and forgiveness, but with some very specific constraints and conditions, with a message of hope and good news. I do not define how Jesus is God or how this works out, I just praise God for His love and the open door through the cross and the power of His love in my life. If you want an absurd background to life, the universe, a rock going round a sun in a place 13 billion years old, with the only place to call home our minute world, but I still love it all, because of Jesus. God bless you

 

[Heyzeus]

nothing binds the Father and the Son. God is Immutable and Indivisible.

you should study the Attributes of God sometime.

Not according to Trinity Doctrine

"Study the attributes of God" ? Have you gone off the Turnip Truck ? how exactly would one do that ? - and don't say "The Bible" because I know it much better than you.

How does one study the attributes of God .. tell me .. ?

 

[Heyzeus]

What is this .. a "Love in" here ?

This phrase is a telling point.
The apostles did not understand Jesus and His relationship with the Father.
Jesus wanted to describe the oneness between Him and the Father, saying if one had seen Him you had seen the Father.
Yet Jesus is praying to the Father while declaring this oneness.

A photon is both a particle and a wave, it just depends how you are looking at it. The two states appear, yet they are different and seem contradictory yet the whole of our lives rely upon this reality. Matter is also energy, yet how we describe things are in the world we experience.

In our lives emotion and facts appear separate, like rational thought and conclusions, except conclusions are an emotional state which we use deductions to justify. It is why if we get the chain of thought wrong, we do not notice if we feel the conclusion is right. When I was young most of my life was governed by things I did not understand or felt, they just were. It was like a small aspect of my life represented who I was. Now most of my life represents who I am. Even so most of what I do, including writing here, is learnt reactions, and ways of expression. So if I find it hard to really define myself, how I am, how can I grasp describing Jesus and the Father other than how they describe themselves.

We are talking about God, the creator becoming man and speaking to us, in the simplest ways we can understand. And yet mortal man wants to stand up and say what is wrong or right in this description. If one cannot see the audacity in this approach then there is little hope for truly walking in the light. My audacity is when I value myself better than anyone else, little realising I am just like each brother and sister in Christ, and I love their expression of the Lords love and life in all its aspects. God bless you.

No idea what you are blubbering about .. seriously .. you are wandering down some rabbit hole - running from the subject matter.

"A photon is both wave and particle" - OK .. did you want to have a discussion of quantum mechanics ? I said it was a very simplistic analogy - why are you going down this path .. would you like me to teach you some quantum mechanics - as I did it in my 4th year of college.