Hell

[keithr]

That is because the question makes no sense.

The "no more" is why exactly?

Did you not read his reply (#81)?! He was quoting 1 John 2:16-17, which says:

"For everything in the world—the desire of the flesh, the desire of the eyes, and the boasting of life—is not from the Father but from the world. The world is passing away along with its desire, but the one who does the will of God abides forever."

The "world passing away" will lead to the "no more". It's not that difficult to understand, so I don't know why you think the question made no sense.

And the idea of Hell as a prison came from where?

From you! You mentioned prison at the very start in your thread opening comment - reply#1.

So, sometimes, a person shows up here with such odd and disconnected theology, that i can't really follow it, as it not related to the NT< even if they are using NT verses.

Yes, I've observed that with your comments! ;)

 

[keithr]

Your spirit is never in an unconscious state.

"soul sleep" is a creation of a cult, and its not connected to reality.
Its just one more man made doctrine of devils.

You're ignoring verses of Scripture that don't harmonise with your ideas again, the verses that I have quoted to support my understanding, such as:

(1Cor 15:51): Behold, I tell you a mystery. We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed,
So Paul thinks that dead Christians are in a sleep like state.

(Joh 11:11) [Jesus] said to them, “Our friend, Lazarus, has fallen asleep, but I am going so that I may awake him out of sleep.”
So Jesus thinks that death is like being asleep.

(Deu 31:16) Yahweh said to Moses, “Behold, you shall sleep with your fathers.
(2Sa 7:12) When your days are fulfilled, and you sleep with your fathers
(Job 14:12) so man lies down and doesn’t rise. Until the heavens are no more, they shall not awake, nor be roused out of their sleep.
(Psa 13:3) Behold, and answer me, Yahweh, my God. Give light to my eyes, lest I sleep in death;
(Dan 12:2) Many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Ignoring verses of Scripture because they don't fit with your beliefs is pretty poor Bible study.

 

[Behold]

Did you not read his reply (#81)?! He was quoting 1 John 2:16-17, which says:

"For everything in the world—the desire of the flesh, the desire of the eyes, and the boasting of life—is not from the Father but from the world. The world is passing away along with its desire,

Yes i read it.
You didnt.
He used the verse but then stated "why the prison".
So, you missed that part.
I didnt.
I responded.

Be more careful when you read, as if you do, we can just go forward from here.

 

[Behold]

(1Cor 15:51): Behold, I tell you a mystery. We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed,
.

And keithr i will rightly divide the verse for you..

"we shall not all DIE, (sleep) but we will ALL (all the born again) be changed"."

Let me show you more..
There is a Rapture. It is soon to come.
Some of us will be in it, because we didn't DIE YET, and we will "all be changed". which means we will be "conformed into the image of Jesus", AND Get a NEW BODY.

So, you have the born again in Heaven, and you have the Born again on earth.
The Born again in Heaven have dead bodies, as they went to "sleep".. "sleep" means, died. That is what Paul is showing you.
And these will come with Jesus during the Rapture... to get those who have not DIED YET...(have not fallen asleep).
The ALIVE born again down here, will fly into the Sky and meet the Savior and all the born again who came with Him. (they died or "fell asleep").

 

[keithr]

One of the characters? Lazarus, Abraham and Moses are not "one character". No parable does this!!! This is a very literal account.

So are all poor people going to end up on Abraham's bosom when they die? Do you think that is literal? Do you think that poeple in Hades/Sheol and Abraham's bosom will be able to call out to each other and have a conversation? (That is contrary to other Scripture verses.)

So, John 3:16 is just a parable?

No, it's not a parable! I already told you what a parable was, and John 3:16 clearly doesn't fall into that category!

Revelation 20:10 (NKJV)
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Should I believe you or Jesus? Jesus made it perfectly clear that it is eternal!

The beast was symbolic, and so is the lake of fire and sulphur. It is symbolic of destruction. The Greek that's translated as "forever and ever" is "ice aion aion", meaning "unto the ages of ages", or until the perfect ages are due - after the 1,000 years judgement reign of Christ. Everything symbolically thrown into the fire will be tormented briefly until they are destroyed. Death and Hades are symbolically destroyed in this fire too, just as everything that goes into it is destroyed.

Mark 9:42-48 (NKJV)
42 "But whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were thrown into the sea. 43 If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched-- 44 where 'Their worm does not die, And the fire is not quenched.'
45 And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame, rather than having two feet, to be cast into hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched-- 46 where 'Their worm does not die, And the fire is not quenched.' 47 And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire-- 48 where 'Their worm does not die, And the fire is not quenched.'

Yes, the fire in Gehenna was kept burning all the time, and Jesus used Gehenna as a symbol of destruction of things that were considered worthless. Jesus was saying it was better to live maimed than to be executed and thrown into Gehenna. He was not describing what happens to sinners for all eternity.

 

[kcnalp]

So are all poor people going to end up on Abraham's bosom when they die? Do you think that is literal?

I never said that. Please don't lie!

Do you think that poeple in Hades/Sheol and Abraham's bosom will be able to call out to each other and have a conversation? (That is contrary to other Scripture verses.)

What "other Scripture verses"?

No, it's not a parable! I already told you what a parable was, and John 3:16 clearly doesn't fall into that category!

So you like John 3:16 but you don't like Luke 16!

The beast was symbolic, and so is the lake of fire and sulphur. It is symbolic of destruction. The Greek that's translated as "forever and ever" is "ice aion aion", meaning "unto the ages of ages", or until the perfect ages are due - after the 1,000 years judgement reign of Christ. Everything symbolically thrown into the fire will be tormented briefly until they are destroyed. Death and Hades are symbolically destroyed in this fire too, just as everything that gows into it is destroyed.

You're a Greek expert? "Symbolic" is typically used by unbelievers.

Yes, the fire in Gehenna was kept burning all the time, and Jesus used Gehenna as a symbol of destruction of things that were considered worthless. Jesus was saying it was better to live maimed than to be executed and thrown into Gehenna. He was not describing what happens to sinners for all eternity.

The term "everlasting" is used several times to describe the fire. Don't like it? Join Kingdom hall. They twist the Hell out of the Bible too.
Revelation 14:10-11 (NKJV)
10 He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."

 

[Robert Gwin]

No Scripture? ONLY sinners go to Hell fire. Jesus NEVER sinned.

That doesn't agree with our Christian Bibles. I notice you didn't post any Scripture to back you.

The prophecy concerning Jesus in hell can be read at Ps 16:10, and the fulfillment of that is found at Acts 2:31, and his getting out through his resurrection by Jehovah verse 32. Thanks for asking sir.

 

[keithr]

The prophecy concerning Jesus in hell can be read at Ps 16:10, and the fulfillment of that is found at Acts 2:31, and his getting out through his resurrection by Jehovah verse 32. Thanks for asking sir.

Yes, and just to make it easier for kcnalp I'll quote Acts 2:31 for you:

(Act 2:31) he foreseeing this spoke about the resurrection of the Christ, that his soul wasn’t left in Hades, and his flesh didn’t see decay.

Peter was confirming that Jesus' soul had gone to Hades (Sheol) just like everyone else who has died, only God didn't leave it there but resurrected Jesus to life again, 3 days later.

 

[keithr]

Yes i read it.
You didnt. He used the verse but then stated "why the prison". So, you missed that part. I didnt. I responded.

Be more careful when you read, as if you do, we can just go forward from here.

Okay, I reread your response, which was:

"Hell was not originally created for Man. It was created before Man was created. It is the final solution for the Devil and his own."​

So you seem to be saying that hell (sheol) was not created for mankind, therefore the question of why it will be needed forever is irrelevant. In which case I find your point of view confusing, because you started explaining that God needed somewhere to put people "because they did not want Jesus or God", and that place is hell. But now you're saying that hell is the final solution for Satan, but it's not! Satan is not cast into hell (Hades/Sheol), he is cast into a lake of fire (symbolising that he will be destroyed). Hades is also later cast into the lake of fire, so Hades/hell cannot be the final solution for Satan. (The order of events is, Satan is destroyed [cast into lake of fire - Rev 20:10], then the remainder of mankind are judged [verses 11 - 13], then death and Hades are destroyed [cast into lake of fire - verse 14]).

 

[Behold]

Okay, I reread your response, which was:

"Hell was not originally created for Man. It was created before Man was created. It is the final solution for the Devil and his own."​

So you seem to be saying that hell (sheol) was not created for mankind, therefore the question of why it will be needed forever is irrelevant.

You know, what im showing you is not difficult to understand.
So, what is your issue?

Listen.
The reason that the Lake of Fire, which is where those in HELL end up..........the reason this lasts forever, is because judgment for Christ Rejection has no END.
Try to understand that GOD is a HOLY and ETERNAL BEING< and the cost of Rejecting Christ , who is GOD, is that you are sent to a place where eternal Judgement means ETERNAL.

 

[keithr]

keithr said: ↑

So are all poor people going to end up on Abraham's bosom when they die? Do you think that is literal?​

I never said that. Please don't lie!

I don't lie, and I'm sure I didn't make a mistake. I didn't claim that you said that! I was asking you if that is what you thought. I say that the rich man and Lazarus story is a parable, and therefore not to be taken literally, but you claim it is not a parable - you said "This is a very literal account" in reply #96. So again, do you think all dead poor people, or maybe just one particular dead poor person called Lazarus, was carried by angels and dumped on Abraham's bosom? There is no indication in this parable/real event that suggests that Lazarus was alive, only that somehow the dead rich man was alive.

Do you think that poeple in Hades/Sheol and Abraham's bosom will be able to call out to each other and have a conversation? (That is contrary to other Scripture verses.)​

What "other Scripture verses"?

I've already quoted these previously, so that's why I didn't think I needed to repeat them. Verses such as these:

(Psa 31:17-18) ... Let the wicked be disappointed. Let them be silent in Sheol. Let the lying lips be mute, which speak against the righteous insolently, with pride and contempt.
(Psa 146:4) His spirit departs, and he returns to the earth. In that very day, his thoughts perish.
(Ecc 9:5) ... but the dead don’t know anything, neither do they have any more a reward; for their memory is forgotten.
(Ecc 9:10) ... for there is no work, nor plan, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in Sheol, where you are going.
(Psa 6:5) For in death there is no memory of you. In Sheol, who shall give you thanks?

So you like John 3:16 but you don't like Luke 16!

Why are you comparing a parable that Jesus taught with one sentence that Jesus spoke? I like both of them, but I understand that the Luke 16 passage is a parable.

The term "everlasting" is used several times to describe the fire. Don't like it? Join Kingdom hall. They twist the Hell out of the Bible too.
Revelation 14:10-11 (NKJV)
10 He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."

Okay, I'll twist it some more for you! :) The word that is translated in verse 10 as tormented (or tortured in some translations) could, and probably should, have been rendered "tested" or "examined"; that the evil deeds and teachings of the devil, the beast and the false prophet will be examined forever by the righteous, and will be recognized as highly deserving destruction. Compare it with Isaiah 14:12-17 (WEB) which says of Satan:

12) How you have fallen from heaven, shining one, son of the dawn! How you are cut down to the ground, who laid the nations low!
13) You said in your heart, “I will ascend into heaven! I will exalt my throne above the stars of God! I will sit on the mountain of assembly, in the far north!
14) I will ascend above the heights of the clouds! I will make myself like the Most High!”
15) Yet you shall be brought down to Sheol, to the depths of the pit.
16) Those who see you will stare at you. They will ponder you, saying, “Is this the man who made the earth to tremble, who shook kingdoms;
17) who made the world like a wilderness, and overthrew its cities; who didn’t release his prisoners to their home?”

Strongs Concordance entry for the Greek word basanizo (translated as tormented in verse 10) says:

1) to test (metals) by the touchstone, which is a black siliceous stone used to test the purity of gold or silver by the colour of the streak produced on it by rubbing it with either metal
2) to question by applying torture

 

[Behold]

1) to test (metals) by the touchstone, which is a black siliceous stone used to test the purity of gold or silver by the colour of the streak produced on it by rubbing it with either metal
2) to question by applying torture

Have you ever been to Israel?
My home is there.
And let me tell you, that the Genesis account of Homosexuality being utterly destroyed in Sodom and Gomorrah, is not a "mistranslation".
You can see the place, and the ashes are in the rock.
God judged that group with fire and sudden death.
Thats a fact.

Also, There is this NT verse.....>"In Flaming FIRE, taking Vengeance on those who OBEY not the GOSPEL".

Do, you know who is doing that? Taking that Vengeance?

Thats The Lamb of God, come back as the Lion of Judah, the King of Kings, and Heads will be rolling and blood will be flowing.
This is also not a "mistranslation", of the "koine greek".
Its a GOD GIVEN FACT.

So also is the "2nd death" that is given to all who Reject Christ.
They will end up in the Lake of Fire for eternity with their Father the DEVIL...., and that place is not a pleasure cruz no matter how many deceived and unsaved "Pastors" and "teachers' try to air condition hell and the lake of fire, before they move in.

Believe it.

 

[keithr]

You know, what im showing you is not difficult to understand.
So, what is your issue?

I disagree with it; I do not believe it to be the truth!

The reason that the Lake of Fire, which is where those in HELL end up..........the reason this lasts forever, is because judgment for Christ Rejection has no END.
Try to understand that GOD is a HOLY and ETERNAL BEING< and the cost of Rejecting Christ , who is GOD, is that you are sent to a place where eternal Judgement means ETERNAL.

It is inconceivable that God would torture millions/billions of people for all eternity. That would make God the most evil, most sinful being ever. I don't believe that! And the Bible doesn't support that idea.

Remember that what God said about people who would sacrifice their children in fires:

(Jer 32:35) They built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through fire to Molech; which I didn’t command them. It didn’t even come into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.”

It is therefore inconceivable that God, who never changes and is righteous, just, compassionate, merciful and loving, would say that while all along planning on committing the same abomination to millions of people, only worse because he was planning on miracuously prolonging their destruction so that they suffered for all eternity.

The Bible says that the wages of sin is death, not eternal torture. Besides, what's the point of throwing Satan into a fire? Fire is physical, the result of a chemical reaction which gives off energy, but Satan is a spirit being - a physical fire will have no effect on him. The fire is used symbolically as a symbol of destruction to indicate that Satan will be destroyed.

(Psa 92:7) though the wicked spring up as the grass, and all the evildoers flourish, they will be destroyed forever. [not tortured forever!]

 

[Behold]

It is inconceivable that God would torture millions/billions of people for all eternity.

Is it inconceivable that God Drowned the entire planet full of people, already?

So, you have a wrong concept of God.
You think he's Santa Clause.
Wrong answer, keithr.
And not your last one, no doubt.

 

[kcnalp]

The prophecy concerning Jesus in hell can be read at Ps 16:10, and the fulfillment of that is found at Acts 2:31, and his getting out through his resurrection by Jehovah verse 32. Thanks for asking sir.

It doesn't say Jesus went to Hell. Which cult are you in?

 

[kcnalp]

Yes, and just to make it easier for kcnalp I'll quote Acts 2:31 for you:

(Act 2:31) he foreseeing this spoke about the resurrection of the Christ, that his soul wasn’t left in Hades, and his flesh didn’t see decay.

Peter was confirming that Jesus' soul had gone to Hades (Sheol) just like everyone else who has died, only God didn't leave it there but resurrected Jesus to life again, 3 days later.

What a pack of lies! Jesus didn't go to Hell!

 

[kcnalp]

I don't lie, and I'm sure I didn't make a mistake. I didn't claim that you said that! I was asking you if that is what you thought. I say that the rich man and Lazarus story is a parable, and therefore not to be taken literally, but you claim it is not a parable - you said "This is a very literal account" in reply #96. So again, do you think all dead poor people, or maybe just one particular dead poor person called Lazarus, was carried by angels and dumped on Abraham's bosom? There is no indication in this parable/real event that suggests that Lazarus was alive, only that somehow the dead rich man was alive.


I've already quoted these previously, so that's why I didn't think I needed to repeat them. Verses such as these:

(Psa 31:17-18) ... Let the wicked be disappointed. Let them be silent in Sheol. Let the lying lips be mute, which speak against the righteous insolently, with pride and contempt.
(Psa 146:4) His spirit departs, and he returns to the earth. In that very day, his thoughts perish.
(Ecc 9:5) ... but the dead don’t know anything, neither do they have any more a reward; for their memory is forgotten.
(Ecc 9:10) ... for there is no work, nor plan, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in Sheol, where you are going.
(Psa 6:5) For in death there is no memory of you. In Sheol, who shall give you thanks?


Why are you comparing a parable that Jesus taught with one sentence that Jesus spoke? I like both of them, but I understand that the Luke 16 passage is a parable.


Okay, I'll twist it some more for you! :) The word that is translated in verse 10 as tormented (or tortured in some translations) could, and probably should, have been rendered "tested" or "examined"; that the evil deeds and teachings of the devil, the beast and the false prophet will be examined forever by the righteous, and will be recognized as highly deserving destruction. Compare it with Isaiah 14:12-17 (WEB) which says of Satan:

12) How you have fallen from heaven, shining one, son of the dawn! How you are cut down to the ground, who laid the nations low!
13) You said in your heart, “I will ascend into heaven! I will exalt my throne above the stars of God! I will sit on the mountain of assembly, in the far north!
14) I will ascend above the heights of the clouds! I will make myself like the Most High!”
15) Yet you shall be brought down to Sheol, to the depths of the pit.
16) Those who see you will stare at you. They will ponder you, saying, “Is this the man who made the earth to tremble, who shook kingdoms;
17) who made the world like a wilderness, and overthrew its cities; who didn’t release his prisoners to their home?”

Strongs Concordance entry for the Greek word basanizo (translated as tormented in verse 10) says:

1) to test (metals) by the touchstone, which is a black siliceous stone used to test the purity of gold or silver by the colour of the streak produced on it by rubbing it with either metal
2) to question by applying torture

I don't think you're qualified to rewrite our Christian Bible.

 

[kcnalp]

I disagree with it; I do not believe it to be the truth!


It is inconceivable that God would torture millions/billions of people for all eternity. That would make God the most evil, most sinful being ever. I don't believe that! And the Bible doesn't support that idea.

Remember that what God said about people who would sacrifice their children in fires:

(Jer 32:35) They built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through fire to Molech; which I didn’t command them. It didn’t even come into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.”

It is therefore inconceivable that God, who never changes and is righteous, just, compassionate, merciful and loving, would say that while all along planning on committing the same abomination to millions of people, only worse because he was planning on miracuously prolonging their destruction so that they suffered for all eternity.

The Bible says that wages of sin is death, not eternal torture. Besides, what's the point of throwing Satan into a fire? Fire is physical, the result of a chemical reaction which gives off energy, but Satan is a spirit being - a physical fire will have no effect on him. The fire is used symbolically as a symbol of destruction to indicate that Satan will be destroyed.

(Psa 92:7) though the wicked spring up as the grass, and all the evildoers flourish, they will be destroyed forever. [not tortured forever!]

The only way you can prove that is to rewrite our Bible. You're not qualified!

 

[Robert Gwin]

It doesn't say Jesus went to Hell. Which cult are you in?

What Bible version are you using? Most Bibles render sheol and hades as hell in those verses. It looks like to me your posting of Mat 25:41 came from the KJV which rendered them both as hell.

 

[Robert Gwin]

Yes, and just to make it easier for kcnalp I'll quote Acts 2:31 for you:

(Act 2:31) he foreseeing this spoke about the resurrection of the Christ, that his soul wasn’t left in Hades, and his flesh didn’t see decay.

Peter was confirming that Jesus' soul had gone to Hades (Sheol) just like everyone else who has died, only God didn't leave it there but resurrected Jesus to life again, 3 days later.

Yes sir, you got it, thanks much for posting it.