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keithr

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And let me tell you, that the Genesis account of Homosexuality being utterly destroyed in Sodom and Gomorrah, is not a "mistranslation".
You can see the place, and the ashes are in the rock.
God judged that group with fire and sudden death.
Thats a fact.
No, I've not been to Israel, but I don't need to go there to believe that the Bible account of Sodom and Gomorrah is a true literal account. However, what has that event got to do with "hell"?

Also, There is this NT verse.....>"In Flaming FIRE, taking Vengeance on those who OBEY not the GOSPEL".

Do, you know who is doing that? Taking that Vengeance?
Yes, it will be Jesus. 2 Thessalonians 1:6-9 (WEB):

6) Since it is a righteous thing with God to repay affliction to those who afflict you,
7) and to give relief to you who are afflicted with us, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels in flaming fire,
8) punishing those who don’t know God, and to those who don’t obey the Good News of our Lord Jesus,
9) who will pay the penalty: eternal destruction from the face of the Lord and from the glory of his might,​

As you can see, many translations place a comma or fullstop after "fire", saying that Jesus will be revealed in fire, not that he will punish/torture people in fire. It says that Jesus will punish those who don’t head the good news about our Lord Jesus, and their punishment will be eternal destruction - not eternal torture. Yet another verse consistent with what I've been saying all along!

Its a GOD GIVEN FACT.
So also is the "2nd death" that is given to all who Reject Christ.
Yep, the second death is an eternal death, eternal destruction (as it says in verse 9 above).

They will end up in the Lake of Fire for eternity with their Father the DEVIL....,
No, the "lake of fire" is a symbol of destruction. It is not a literal place that anyone can spend time in, let alone eternity. 2 Thess 1:9 quoted above confirms that!

Let me make one last point concerning the destruction of Satan, to try and convince you that the lake of fire is symbolic of destruction. Isaiah 14 implies that at his end Satan will take on human form (when he is released at the end of the 1,000 year reign of Christ, when he deceives the nations and gathers them together to war against the faithful believers - Rev 20:8,9):

12) How you have fallen from heaven, shining one, son of the dawn! How you are cut down to the ground [earth], who laid the nations low!
13) You said in your heart, “I will ascend into heaven! I will exalt my throne above the stars of God! I will sit on the mountain of assembly, in the far north!
14) I will ascend above the heights of the clouds! I will make myself like the Most High!”
15) Yet you shall be brought down to Sheol [grave, death], to the depths of the pit.
16) Those who see you will stare at you. They will ponder you, saying, “Is this the man who made the earth to tremble, who shook kingdoms;
17) who made the world like a wilderness, and overthrew its cities; who didn’t release his prisoners to their home?”​

And in Ezekiel 28 God gives us more details about Satan's final destruction. Under the symbolism of the prince of Tyrus (or Tyre - not to be confused with a car tyre! :)), God says:

12) “Son of man, take up a lamentation over the king of Tyre, and tell him, ‘Thus says the Lord Yahweh: “You were the seal of full measure, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
13) You were in Eden, the garden of God. Every precious stone adorned you: ruby, topaz, emerald, chrysolite, onyx, jasper, sapphire, turquoise, and beryl. Gold work of tambourines and of pipes was in you. They were prepared in the day that you were created.
14) You were the anointed cherub who covers. Then I set you up on the holy mountain of God. You have walked up and down in the middle of the stones of fire.
15) You were perfect in your ways from the day that you were created, until unrighteousness was found in you.
16) By the abundance of your commerce, your insides were filled with violence, and you have sinned. Therefore I have cast you as profane out of God’s mountain. I have destroyed you, covering cherub, from the middle of the stones of fire.
17) Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty. You have corrupted your wisdom by reason of your splendor. I have cast you to the ground [earth]. I have laid you before kings, that they may see you.
18) By the multitude of your iniquities, in the unrighteousness of your commerce, you have profaned your sanctuaries. Therefore I have brought out a fire from the middle of you. It has devoured you. I have turned you to ashes on the earth in the sight of all those who see you.
19) All those who know you among the peoples will be astonished at you. You have become a terror, and you will exist no more.”’”​

So again it seems that Satan at his end will be in human form, on the earth, where kings and others will see him, and God (or Jesus) will kill him by causing a fire to start within him, destroying him from the inside out, and turning him to ashes - and he "will exist no more". This makes it clear that the Revelation 20 lake of fire is symbolic of destruction, for he will be destroyed not by being thrown into a fire but a fire will be started inside him, and he will be utterly destroyed. He will cease to exist, like everyone else who will be destroyed in the second death.
 
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keithr

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Is it inconceivable that God Drowned the entire planet full of people, already?

So, you have a wrong concept of God.
You think he's Santa Clause.
Wrong answer, keithr.
And not your last one, no doubt.
I'll stop answering soon! :) But no, I don't think God is Santa Clause. The flood was for specific reasons, mainly because of the genetic corruption of the human race by the fallen angels taking on human form and interbreeding with humans (Gen 6). God has also intervened on other occasions and killed people, e.g. Sodom and Gomorrah, and in various battles for Israel. But in all occasions God had valid and just reasons for doing so, and he knows that he is going to resurrect everyone to life again and give them a chance to gain eternal life. The flood, and other events, resulted in people being killed quickly - not lengthy torture. God's ways are righteous and just.
 
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keithr

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What a pack of lies! Jesus didn't go to Hell!
(Act 2:31) he foreseeing this spoke about the resurrection of the Christ, that his soul wasn’t left in Hades, and his flesh didn’t see decay.

You're saying that the Bible is a pack of lies! I'm afraid if that's you're attitude then I can't help you. :(
 

keithr

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(Psa 92:7) though the wicked spring up as the grass, and all the evildoers flourish, they will be destroyed forever. [not tortured forever!]

The only way you can prove that is to rewrite our Bible. You're not qualified!
Why do I need to rewrite the Bible to prove that what the Bible says is correct? The Bible clearly says "they will be destroyed forever". Why don't you believe 'your' Bible?

Instead of attacking me and my qualifications, why don't you respond with Bible verses that you think supports your view, and explain why you think the verses I have quoted don't mean what I claim they mean?
 
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Behold

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No, I've not been to Israel, but I don't need to go there to believe that the Bible account of Sodom and Gomorrah is a true literal account. However, what has that event got to do with "hell"?

.

It has to do with your heretical idea that eternal Hell and the eternal Lake of Fire are not waiting for Christ Rejectors who are "of your father the Devil".
So, where He goes, they end up.

Now, write another long post that shows you can't understand this, and i'll respond again.
See you there.
 

Behold

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I'll stop answering soon! :) But no, I don't think God is Santa Clause. The flood was for specific reasons, mainly because of the genetic corruption of the human race by the fallen angels taking on human form and interbreeding with humans (Gen 6). God has also intervened on other occasions and killed people, e.g. Sodom and Gomorrah, and in various battles for Israel. But in all occasions God had valid and just reasons for doing so, and he knows that he is going to resurrect everyone to life again and give them a chance to gain eternal life. The flood, and other events, resulted in people being killed quickly - not lengthy torture. God's ways are righteous and just.

God is not torturing people with Hell or with the Lake of Fire.

Those places exit.

If you end up there, as a Christ Rejector, then you chose to go.
God is only honoring your Choice you made on earth regarding where you end up after you die.

See, its like this...
Heaven and Hell are end results of : Receiving Christ or Rejecting Him.

Secular people, unfamiliar with God or the NT< always think that God is making them BURN in the Lake of Fire.
But that is not the case.
The Lake of Fire, is waiting for the DEVIL and HIS children who chose not to Go to heaven, by rejecting Christ on EARTH.
God is not the REASON a person goes to Hell, or the Lake of fire, as these are just eternal destinations.
You get to choose where you end up after you die.
God only honors your choice.
 

keithr

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It has to do with your heretical idea that eternal Hell and the eternal Lake of Fire are not waiting for Christ Rejectors who are "of your father the Devil".
I still don't see what God destroying Sodom and Gomorrah has to do with the idea that there is a literal eternal lake of fire and a place called Sheol/Hell where people will be sent to spend eternity (despite the Scriptures clearly saying that the penalty for disobedience is death and eternal destruction).

Now, write another long post that shows you can't understand this, and i'll respond again.
See you there.
What's the point? As you say, I have written many long, detailed posts, quoting many verses of Scripture to confirm what I believe to be the truth about our eternal destinies, as God has told us in his word. (There were 5 posts before my first post, and yet I was the first person to quote anything from the Bible - and this is supposed to be a Bible study forum!) But if you and others just keep ignoring God's word and not explaining how the verses I have quoted support, and don't contradict, your claims, then there's no point me repeating myself, and the Scriptures, again. God is the author of the Bible, and if we have the correct understanding of it then it will be in total harmony with itself. The fact that I have been able to quote so many verses from the Bible that are contradictory to your claims about hell, that shows that your beliefs must be incorrect.

As Christians, we're supposed to be ambassadors for Jesus and for God. And so I have tried to uphold God's good character and reputation, by showing that the errors from the Dark Ages that claim that God is going to torture millions of people for all eternity is a gross slander to God's loving and merciful character. (Remember, "God is love", 1 John 4:8,16.) You and others keep arguing against that, mainly just stating your beliefs and offering very little Scriptual evidence to back it up. It reminds me of John 12 (WEB):

37) But though he had done so many signs before them, yet they didn’t believe in him,
38) that the word of Isaiah the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spoke, “Lord, who has believed our report? To whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?”
39) For this cause they couldn’t believe, for Isaiah said again,
40) “He has blinded their eyes and he hardened their heart, lest they should see with their eyes, and perceive with their heart, and would turn, and I would heal them.”
41) Isaiah said these things when he saw his glory, and spoke of him.
42) Nevertheless even many of the rulers believed in him, but because of the Pharisees they didn’t confess it, so that they wouldn’t be put out of the synagogue,​

I've said enough, so I'll stop responding to this discussion now.
 
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kcnalp

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What Bible version are you using? Most Bibles render sheol and hades as hell in those verses. It looks like to me your posting of Mat 25:41 came from the KJV which rendered them both as hell.
You offer no proof whatsoever. Is your Jesus a sinner. Mine isn't.
 

kcnalp

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(Act 2:31) he foreseeing this spoke about the resurrection of the Christ, that his soul wasn’t left in Hades, and his flesh didn’t see decay.

You're saying that the Bible is a pack of lies! I'm afraid if that's you're attitude then I can't help you. :(
Let's try again. Read very carefully: "Jesus didn't go to Hell!"
 

kcnalp

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Why do I need to rewrite the Bible to prove that what the Bible says is correct? The Bible clearly says "they will be destroyed forever". Why don't you believe 'your' Bible?

Instead of attacking me and my qualifications, why don't you respond with Bible verses that you think supports your view, and explain why you think the verses I have quoted don't mean what I claim they mean?
Stop playing the victim and give some proof that Jesus went to Hell. You don't have any.
 

Robert Gwin

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You offer no proof whatsoever. Is your Jesus a sinner. Mine isn't.

We offer only scriptural evidence sir. If one does not accept the Bible as truth, then proof is moot. The Bible indicates Jesus remained sinless, on which we agree. He was the only one recorded in the Bible who went to hell that was sinless. Matter of fact, he was the only human who ever existed that did not sin. If he would have sinned, Jehovah would not have accepted his sacrifice when Jesus presented it to Him, but with the outpouring of holy spirit on Pentecost of the year 33 CE, we realize that his death redeemed us from inherited death.
 

keithr

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Stop playing the victim and give some proof that Jesus went to Hell. You don't have any.
This is my last response to you. It's simply to present more Bible verses for you to study. In Peter's teaching on the day of Pentecost, he said (Acts 2:22-32, KJV):

22) Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
23) Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
24) Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.
25) For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:
26) Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:
27) Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
28) Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.
29) Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
30) Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
31) He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
32) This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.

If you think that doesn't say that Jesus was killed, but that God raised him up from death (up from hell), which David foresaw and said that God would not leave Jesus' soul in hell, then you are so blinded and incapable of understanding that I don't know what will convince you. Peter's teaching is proof that Jesus went to hell when he died, just like everyone else who dies. As I've quoted before:

Psalm 89:48 (TLV): What man can live and not see death? Can he deliver himself from the clutches of Sheol?

Sheol (hell) = death

Jesus paid the penalty for (our) sins. That penalty is death (Romans 6:23). For 3 days Jesus was in hell (Sheol). If that was not the case, show us proof (from the Bible).
 

keithr

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You offer no proof whatsoever. Is your Jesus a sinner. Mine isn't.
Jesus was sinless, but he took on the sins of the world:

(Heb 4:15) For we don’t have a high priest who can’t be touched with the feeling of our infirmities, but one who has been in all points tempted like we are, yet without sin.
(Heb 9:28) so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, without sin, to those who are eagerly waiting for him for salvation.
(1Jn 2:2) And he is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the whole world.

(This is definitely my last response. :))
 
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kcnalp

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Jesus paid the penalty for (our) sins. That penalty is death (Romans 6:23). For 3 days Jesus was in hell (Sheol). If that was not the case, show us proof (from the Bible).
Jesus paid the penalty for us with His Blood.

Acts 2:27 (NKJV)
27 For You will not leave my soul in Hades, Nor will You allow Your Holy One to see corruption.
Acts 2:27 (CJB)
27 that you will not abandon me to Sh’ol or let your Holy One see decay.
Acts 2:27 (ASV)
27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul unto Hades, Neither wilt thou give thy Holy One to see corruption.
Acts 2:27 (CSBBible)
27 because you will not abandon me in Hades or allow your holy one to see decay.
Acts 2:27 (CEB)
27 because you won't abandon me to the grave, nor permit your holy one to experience decay.
Acts 2:27 (Darby)
27 for thou wilt not leave my soul in hades, nor wilt thou give thy gracious one to see corruption.
Acts 2:27 (ESV)
27 For you will not abandon my soul to Hades, or let your Holy One see corruption.
Acts 2:27 (NCV)
27 because you will not leave me in the grave. You will not let your Holy One rot.
Acts 2:27 (NIV)
27 because you will not abandon me to the grave, nor will you let your Holy One see decay.
Acts 2:27 (NRSV)
27 For you will not abandon my soul to Hades, or let your Holy One experience corruption.
Acts 2:27 (RSV)
27 For thou wilt not abandon my soul to Hades, nor let thy Holy One see corruption.
Acts 2:27 (TEV)
27 because you will not abandon me in the world of the dead; you will not allow your faithful servant to rot in the grave.
Acts 2:27 (ETRV)
27 because you will not leave me in the place of death. You will not let the body of your Holy One rot in the grave.
Acts 2:27 (GW)
27 because you do not abandon my soul to the grave or allow your holy one to decay.
Acts 2:27 (ICB)
27 This is because you will not leave me in the grave. You will not let your Holy One rot.
Acts 2:27 (MLB)
27 because Thou wilt not abandon my soul to the realm of the dead, neither wilt Thou permit Thy holy one to see corruption.
Acts 2:27 (NET1)
27 because you will not leave my soul in Hades,[52] nor permit your Holy One to experience[53] decay.
Acts 2:27 (NASB77)

27 BECAUSE THOU WILT NOT ABANDON MY SOUL TO HADES, NOR ALLOW THY HOLY ONE TO UNDERGO DECAY.
Acts 2:27 (NASB)
27 BECAUSE YOU WILL NOT ABANDON MY SOUL TO HADES, NOR ALLOW YOUR HOLY ONE TO UNDERGO DECAY.
Acts 2:27 (NIV2011)
27 because you will not abandon me to the realm of the dead, you will not let your holy one see decay.
Acts 2:27 (AMP)
27 For You will not abandon my soul, leaving it helpless in Hades (the state of departed spirits), nor let Your Holy One know decay or see destruction [of the body after death].
Acts 2:27 (MontgomeryNT)
27 "For thou wilt not leave my soul in Hades, Nor give up thy Holy One to see corruption."
Acts 2:27 (CEV)
27 The Lord won't leave me in the grave. I am his holy one, and he won't let my body decay.
Acts 2:27 (GenevaBible)
27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in grave, neither wilt suffer thine Holy one to see corruption.
Acts 2:27 (HCSB)
27 because You will not leave me in Hades or allow Your Holy One to see decay.
Acts 2:27 (MaceNT)
27 because thou wilt not leave my soul in the grave, nor wilt thou give thine holy one a prey to corruption.
Acts 2:27 (MOFF)
27 because thou wilt not forsake my soul in the grave, nor let thy holy one suffer decay.
Acts 2:27 (NJB)
27 for you will not abandon me to Hades or allow your holy one to see corruption.
Acts 2:27 (NLT2)
27 For you will not leave my soul among the dead or allow your Holy One to rot in the grave.
Acts 2:27 (MSG)
27 I know you'll never dump me in Hades; I'll never even smell the stench of death.
Acts 2:27 (WesleyNT)
27 For thou wilt not leave my soul in Hades, neither wilt thou suffer thy holy one to see corruption.
Acts 2:27 (YLT)
27 because Thou wilt not leave my soul to hades, nor wilt Thou give Thy Kind One to see corruption;

No Hell!
 

kcnalp

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Jesus was sinless, but he took on the sins of the world:

(Heb 4:15) For we don’t have a high priest who can’t be touched with the feeling of our infirmities, but one who has been in all points tempted like we are, yet without sin.
(Heb 9:28) so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, without sin, to those who are eagerly waiting for him for salvation.
(1Jn 2:2) And he is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the whole world.

(This is definitely my last response. :))
Only sinners go to Hell. Who taught you that Jesus went to Hell, Copeland maybe?
 

Webers_Home

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Something I had to learn early on as a Christian is that Jesus Christ is God's
final word to mankind, viz: His son's teachings trump all other teachings that
came before him including Moses, the prophets, David, Solomon, and Job
too.

I don't have access to any of Christ's teachings in his own personal
language; which could've been Hebrew and then again could've been
Aramaic or even Latin. All I have access to are Greek versions of his
teachings translated into English.

In several incidents, Jesus is recorded speaking of the afterlife by means of
the Greek word háidēs (a.k.a. hades) which was doubtless borrowed from
Hellenistic influences prevalent in that day.

The Greek's háidēs was believed to be a conscious afterlife where everybody
went when they died regardless of age, race, gender, or religious
preference; which of course implies that not only was the rich man of Luke
16:19-31 in háidēs but so were Abraham and Lazarus; even Jesus did some
time there. (Matt 12:40 & Acts 2:25-31)


FAQ: If not háidēs, then what is the correct Greek word for "grave" in the
New Testament?

A: It's actually mnemeion (mnay-mi' on), for example:

Matt 27:52-53 . . And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the
saints which slept arose, and came out of the graves after his resurrection,
and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

Matt 27:59-60 . . And when Joseph had taken the body, he wrapped it in a
clean linen cloth, and laid it in his own new tomb, which he had hewn out in
the rock: and he rolled a great stone to the door of the sepulchre, and
departed.

John 11:18 . . Then when Jesus came, he found that he had lain in the
grave four days already.

John 11:38 . . Jesus therefore again groaning in himself cometh to the
grave. It was a cave, and a stone lay upon it.

John 12:17 . . The people therefore that was with him when he called
Lazarus out of his grave, and raised him from the dead, bare record.

Those are only a smattering of examples from the New Testament where
grave is properly translated from mnemeion. Bible committees that render
háidēs as grave do so arbitrarily, i.e. by interpretation rather than by
translation. Caveat Lector.
_