Hell

[keithr]

"Symbolic is your word, not God's. Death does not mean cease to exist. Sure you're not JW?

I didn't make it up. We are told by John, who wrote Revelation, that it was symbolic:

"The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John" (Rev 1:1).​

He says that it is the word of God, given to Jesus, who then sent it to John via an angel who showed John future events, told in a symbolic way - it was signified, not literal. Do you believe there will be a literal woman sitting on a literal beast which has seven heads and ten horns (Rev 17:3-6)? At least for that symbolic vision we are told what it signifies:

(Rev 17:9) Here is the mind that has wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sits.
(Rev 17:10) They are seven kings. Five have fallen, the one is, the other has not yet come. When he comes, he must continue a little while.
(Rev 17:12) The ten horns that you saw are ten kings who have received no kingdom as yet, but they receive authority as kings, with the beast, for one hour.

As for death not meaning ceasing to exist, the second death means to be destroyed, to perish:

(Joh 3:16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

The alternatives are to perish (Greek word apollumi, meaning to destroy fully), or to have eternal life. Being fully destroyed, to perish, does mean that you will no longer exist.

Likewise, Satan is to be destroyed (symbolically thrown into a lake of fire; fire doesn't preserve - it destroys):

(Heb 2:14) ... that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

 

[Robert Gwin]

Prison is made for criminals.
Its where they go, because they can't be allowed to harm the public, again and again and again.
They have proven by their behavior, by their choices, by their lifestyle... that they can't be trusted to live among people who are not criminals.
So, you have to keep them away from society, the public, .............= Prison.

Hell, is the place where people chose to go because they did not want Jesus or God, or Heaven, = when they had the chance to be a part of it all their LIVES.
They had this chance for as long as they were breathing, right until their DEATH BED.

Hell is not full of believers who love God and want Jesus.
Its full of people who hate God, rejected Christ and do not want to be a part of God's family, before they died.
After they are in hell, they all want Jesus, of course.
So, God created the place for them to go, as He can't allow them to be in Heaven with the people who chose to be there, and He will never.

Hell is not about, being punished, as that is the wrong idea.
Its about where to put those who dont want Jesus and who dont Love God.
You dont put those people with the people who wanted Jesus, as we are talking about for ETERNITY.
Do you think God is going to allow God Haters and Christ rejectors to be right there for all eternity with the people who Love Jesus?
=NO.
That would be chaos and strife and crazy for all eternity.

So, God put those who had no use for God, and no use for Jesus, and no use for Heaven, where they belong, after they die, as that is their CHOICE and God honors your choice.
There is a place for them and their Father, who is the Devil.
They are his Children.

Whereas Heaven is the place for the born again, ... God's LITERAL SPIRITUAL Children.

Hell, = FOREVER APART from those who want Jesus, love God, and are born again.

Everyone who dies goes to hell sir, even Jesus who was sinless did. What is their hope? The resurrection, everyone in hell will receive a resurrection, and then it will be cast into the lake of fire gone forever Rev 20:13,14

 

[keithr]

Jehovah witnesses do NOT believe Jesus is God... they consider Him lesser than God... therefore they REJECT the trinity.

And they are quite right to reject the trinity doctrine. Jesus refers to Yahweh (God) as his father and his God, e.g.:

(Rev 3:12) He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God, and he will go out from there no more. I will write on him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from my God, and my own new name.
(Joh 20:17) Jesus said to her, “Don’t hold me, for I haven’t yet ascended to my Father; but go to my brothers, and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”

Anyone who rejects the trinity are not entering the kingdom of heaven.

That is incorrect. Where in the Bible does it say that? But let's not turn this discussion into a trinity discussion. It's already been discussed in another thread, not long ago.

This is what they say about WHO JESUS IS.... (taken from the Jehovah Witness website).

We believe in Jesus, who said: “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” (John 14:6) We have faith that Jesus came to earth from heaven and gave his perfect human life as a ransom sacrifice. (Matthew 20:28) His death and resurrection make it possible for those exercising faith in him to gain everlasting life. (John 3:16) We also believe that Jesus is now ruling as King of God’s heavenly Kingdom, which will soon bring peace to the entire earth. (Revelation 11:15) However, we take Jesus at his word when he said: “The Father is greater than I am.” (John 14:28) So we do not worship Jesus, as we do not believe that he is Almighty God.

I'd mostly agree with that, although I don't think it is wrong to worship Jesus:

(Heb 1:6) And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

We should not worship Jesus instead of Almighty God, but as well as God. Philipians 2:9-11 (WEB):

9) Therefore God also highly exalted him, and gave to him the name which is above every name;
10) that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, those on earth, and those under the earth,
11) and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.​

 

[Behold]

Everyone who dies goes to hell sir, even Jesus who was sinless did. What is their hope? The resurrection, everyone in hell will receive a resurrection, and then it will be cast into the lake of fire gone forever Rev 20:13,14

Thats not correct.

The Born again do not die and go to hell, Robert.
The born again's body is laid cold in a grave or its embraced by the fire of cremation and then Urn'd, or spread out as ashes.
The REAL them, the born again Spirit, departs the dead body and goes instantly to be with the Lord.

Paul says..>"absent from the Body, present with the Lord".

 

[keithr]

The REAL them, the born again Spirit, departs the dead body and goes instantly to be with the Lord.

If they are instantly with Jesus then why does Paul say that "the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a shout, ... The dead in Christ will rise first, then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. So we will be with the Lord forever" (1Th 4:16,17)?

Paul says..>"absent from the Body, present with the Lord".

That is a misquote, and it doesn't support your claim. 2 Corinthians 5:6-8 says:

6) Therefore we are always confident and know that while we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord;
7) for we walk by faith, not by sight.
8) We are courageous, I say, and are willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be at home with the Lord.

It is part of a passage where Paul is explaining that we are currently in a human body but that eventually God will give us a spirit being body:

1) For we know that if the earthly house of our tent is dissolved, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal, in the heavens.
2) For most certainly in this we groan, longing to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven;

In verse 6 he is saying that while we are in our human bodies we are not at home with Jesus, and in verse 8 he says that we would rather be at home with Jesus - that we are desiring to be in our new heavenly home. But in no part of the passage does he say anything about dying, and definitely nothing about immediately being given our new heavenly spirit being bodies when we die. The 1 Thessalonians 4 verses quoted above tell us that dead Christians are not immediately resurrected, but that they are all still sleeping in death waiting for Jesus to come back for the church.

 

[Behold]

If they are instantly with Jesus then why does Paul say that "the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a shout, ... The dead in Christ will rise first, then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. So we will be with the Lord forever" (1Th 4:16,17)?It is part of a passage where Paul is explaining that we are currently in a human body but that eventually God will give us a spirit being body:

Its not a misquote, its just that you're not understanding some simple fundamental theological things..

Like, .. when you die, your Spirit goes somewhere. Where do you think it goes? Maybe you think it goes to Russia or to Belize or to Purgatory?

No, its this....."present with the Lord". ... after you leave your body.
This is Philippians 1:23.

Paul speaking to you.

""I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far"""""

So Keithr......where is CHRIST located, as Paul is going there after he dies.

Do you understand?
Do some study.

See, all the born again are right now... "seated in Heavenly places, in Christ".....right now.
RIGHT NOW.
Why is that? Its because the born again are not their body. They are "new Creations", in Christ.

2nd. All those, who are in heaven now, who are those who have died as born again, will come back in the rapture with Jesus, in their new bodies.

3rd. If you are on the earth and breathing when the Rapture occurs, you will FLY and meet Jesus and get your new body.

 

[kcnalp]

Just because the Jehovah's Witnesses believe in something that does not mean it's not true. They also believe in Jesus, that he was the son of God who gave his life in sacrifice for all mankind, and who was resurrected to life again by God. Do you not believe that because the Jehovah's Witnesses believe it? Believe the word of God beause it is the truth.

"Symbolic" generally means, "I don't believe it"!

 

[kcnalp]

I didn't make it up. We are told by John, who wrote Revelation, that it was symbolic:

"The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John" (Rev 1:1).​

He says that it is the word of God, given to Jesus, who then sent it to John via an angel who showed John future events, told in a symbolic way - it was signified, not literal. Do you believe there will be a literal woman sitting on a literal beast which has seven heads and ten horns (Rev 17:3-6)? At least for that symbolic vision we are told what it signifies:

(Rev 17:9) Here is the mind that has wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sits.
(Rev 17:10) They are seven kings. Five have fallen, the one is, the other has not yet come. When he comes, he must continue a little while.
(Rev 17:12) The ten horns that you saw are ten kings who have received no kingdom as yet, but they receive authority as kings, with the beast, for one hour.

As for death not meaning ceasing to exist, the second death means to be destroyed, to perish:

(Joh 3:16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

The alternatives are to perish (Greek word apollumi, meaning to destroy fully), or to have eternal life. Being fully destroyed, to perish, does mean that you will no longer exist.

Likewise, Satan is to be destroyed (symbolically thrown into a lake of fire; fire doesn't preserve - it destroys):

(Heb 2:14) ... that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

"Symbolic" is YOUR word, not God's.

 

[kcnalp]

Everyone who dies goes to hell sir, even Jesus who was sinless did. What is their hope? The resurrection, everyone in hell will receive a resurrection, and then it will be cast into the lake of fire gone forever Rev 20:13,14

How Satanic! ONLY sinners go to Hell.

 

[Robert Gwin]

Thats not correct.

The Born again do not die and go to hell, Robert.
The born again's body is laid cold in a grave or its embraced by the fire of cremation and then Urn'd, or spread out as ashes.
The REAL them, the born again Spirit, departs the dead body and goes instantly to be with the Lord.

Paul says..>"absent from the Body, present with the Lord".

At this time I agree with you, however until the first resurrection took place, the anointed (born again) laid in the grave as everyone else. We believe Jesus was enthroned as King in 1914, and the first resurrection occurred shortly after that, upon his return those left alive will meet him in the air.

 

[Behold]

At this time I agree with you, however until the first resurrection took place, the anointed (born again) laid in the grave as everyone else. We believe Jesus was enthroned as King in 1914, and the first resurrection occurred shortly after that, upon his return those left alive will meet him in the air.

Jesus was enthroned as king in 1914?

If that were true then the born again would all be in Israel and Jesus would be on David's Throne, in Jerusalem.

Let me look outside my bedroom window that is located in Israel, and let me see if that has happened...

Give me a sec.........brb.

Ok, nope.
Jesus is not on David's Throne, as He's not come back yet, (2nd Advent).
Did you notice that the RAPTURE has not occurred yet?
Did you notice that you don't have your new body yet that you will get if you are born again?
You didn't notice?
Then its time you woke up.

You might want to burn your commentaries and get out of your cult.
Really.

 

[keithr]

.. when you die, your Spirit goes somewhere. Where do you think it goes? Maybe you think it goes to Russia or to Belize or to Purgatory?

Of course I don't believe that! I quoted from 1 Thessalonians 4 which implies that dead Christians remain dead until moments before the rapture. The rapture hasn't taken place yet, so they are still dead. Here's another passage from Paul confirming it (1Cor 15:51-53):

51) Behold, I tell you a mystery. We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed,
52) in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we will be changed.
53) For this perishable body must become imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality.

Here he is saying that the majority of Christians will die and sleep in death, but that some Christians won't die because they will be alive when Jesus returns for the Church. Then, when that last trumpet sounds (same event as in 1Thess 4:16, "For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with God’s trumpet. The dead in Christ will rise first,"), the dead Christians will then be resurrected. So a trumpet is sounded, the dead Christians are resurrected and the living Christians are changed, and all this will happen very rapidly - "in the twinkling of an eye". And all Christians are changed at that time, and not until then. So dead Christians are not with Jesus yet.

No, its this....."present with the Lord". ... after you leave your body.
This is Philippians 1:23.

(Php 1:23) But I am in a dilemma between the two, having the desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better.

Paul knows that when we die we "sleep in death" (Ps 13:3), and that means we have no conscious thoughts and no perception of time. I expect you have often woken up in the middle of the night and have no idea what the time is or how long you have been asleep for. Likewise the dead have no perception of time, and those who died thousands of years ago, and those who died yesterday, will awake in their resurrection thinking that virtually no time at all has passed, just like when we wake up from sleep in the morning and it doesn't seem like 7 or 8 hours have gone by since we were last thinking about things. Therefore Paul is saying he has a desire for his life to end soon so that he will be with Jesus sooner, as far as he will perceive it, for he is really looking forward to the more glorious life after his resurrection, "which is far better".

So Keithr......where is CHRIST located, as Paul is going there after he dies.

(1Th 4:17) then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. So we will be with the Lord forever.

It is when the first resurrection and rapture takes place that we will meet Jesus - "in the air", "in the clouds". In the meantime Jesus is "at the right hand of God":

(Col 3:1) If then you were raised together with Christ, seek the things that are above, where Christ is, seated on the right hand of God.
(1Pe 3:22) who is at the right hand of God, having gone into heaven, angels and authorities and powers being made subject to him.
(Heb 12:2) looking to Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising its shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

See, all the born again are right now... "seated in Heavenly places, in Christ".....right now.
RIGHT NOW.

Don't be silly! You are not right now sat in heaven. Ephesians 2:4-7 (WEB):

4) But God, being rich in mercy, for his great love with which he loved us,
5) even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
6) and raised us up with him, and made us to sit with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
7) that in the ages to come he might show the exceeding riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus;

As far as God is concerned, "we are his workmanship" (verse 10) and what he has started he will finish, and he has made us to sit with God in heaven. But that is still a future event, his work has not been completed yet. It's "in the ages to come" that we will be in heaven, not now! We have not yet been "raised up" (verse 6), i.e. resurrected.

2nd. All those, who are in heaven now, who are those who have died as born again, will come back in the rapture with Jesus, in their new bodies.

But they are not in heaven yet! They don't come back with Jesus "in the rapture". As part of Jesus gathering the Church to be with him they, the "dead in Christ", are resurrected and given their new spirit bodies (1 Thessalonians 4:16).

Do you understand?
Do some study.

I think you don't understand and need to study 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 and 1 Corinthians 15:16-57.

(1Co 15:18) Then they also who are fallen asleep in Christ have perished.​

The dead Christians have perished unless they are resurrected, so they can't already be in heaven with Jesus.

(1Co 15:23) But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, then those who are Christ’s, at his coming.​

The dead Christians are only resurrected to life again at Jesus' coming for the Chruch - at the time of the rapture.

(1Co 15:44) It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body and there is also a spiritual body.​

Paul likens it to sowing a seed, which is dead and buried, that some time later sprouts into a new form of life. The seed must be dead and buried before the new plant can come to life, and likewise the human body must die before the spiritual body can come to life (we cannot inhabit two homes at the same time, "while we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord", 2 Cor 5:6). Therefore we cannot be seated in heaven while we are still in our human bodies.

(1Co 15:46) However that which is spiritual isn’t first, but that which is natural, then that which is spiritual.​

First we are human, later we become spirit beings.

(1Co 15:50) Now I say this, brothers, that flesh and blood can’t inherit God’s Kingdom; neither does the perishable inherit imperishable.​

We cannot share in Christ's kingdom rule until after we have been changed., neither can we be in heaven until after we have been changed (born again).

 

[keithr]

"Symbolic" generally means, "I don't believe it"!

If you can't recognise when God is using symbols and types, etc., then you'll end up misunderstanding the Scirptures. Oh, wait, you have misunderstood!

 

[Behold]

Of course I don't believe that! I quoted from 1 Thessalonians 4 which implies that dead Christians remain dead .

You have not understood that you are not your body.
Your entire theology is trying to prove that you are a body that contains no Living eternal Spirit.

Try to understand that your Living Eternal Spirit, does not go to the Grave.
Its only your body, that dies.
If you can see this, then you'll finally understand what is meant by "Born again".

 

[keithr]

You have not understood that you are not your body.
Your entire theology is trying to prove that you are a body that contains no Living eternal Spirit.

Try to understand that your Living Eternal Spirit, does not go to the Grave.
Its only your body, that dies.
If you can see this, then you'll finally understand what is meant by "Born again".

You have not understood that whatever part of us that is not physical, not made of the dust of the earth, wherever it goes does not matter, because it will be in an unconscious state - we will sleep, as Jesus, Paul, God, etc. liken it to. It only awakens when God gives it a new body, whether that is a physical human body (those who partake in the second resurrection) or spiritual body (Christians, who partake in the first resurrection). The first resurrection doesn't take place until moments before the rapture, when Jesus returns for the Church.

I have quoted many verses to support that, but you have simply ignored them and not explained how those verses can be interpreted in harmony with your beliefs.

 

[Behold]

You have not understood that whatever part of us that is not physical, not made of the dust of the earth, wherever it goes does not matter,.

You just stated, unbelievably, on a Christian Forum.... that "it does not matter where our Spirit goes, after we die".

So, you are kidding, or are you just not connected to reality?

 

[kcnalp]

If you can't recognise when God is using symbols and types, etc., then you'll end up misunderstanding the Scirptures. Oh, wait, you have misunderstood!

So, which church persuaded you that the Bible doesn't mean what it says? Sounds like Kingdom Hall.

 

[kcnalp]

You have not understood that whatever part of us that is not physical, not made of the dust of the earth, wherever it goes does not matter, because it will be in an unconscious state - we will sleep, as Jesus, Paul, God, etc. liken it to. It only awakens when God gives it a new body, whether that is a physical human body (those who partake in the second resurrection) or spiritual body (Christians, who partake in the first resurrection). The first resurrection doesn't take place until moments before the rapture, when Jesus returns for the Church.

I have quoted many verses to support that, but you have simply ignored them and not explained how those verses can be interpreted in harmony with your beliefs.

Doesn't matter? Oh my!

 

[Webers_Home]

.
Through me; the way to the eternal city.
Through me; the way to eternal sadness.
Through me; the way to lost people.

Justice moved my supreme maker:
I was shaped by divine power,
By highest wisdom, and by primal love.

Before me, nothing was created
That is not eternal: and eternally I endure.
Abandon all hope, you that enter here.
The Divine Comedy / Dante Alighieri / Inferno: canto 3, v.1-9

Dante's poetic epic is called a comedy because it has a happy ending as
opposed to a tragedy; at least for Dante anyway. The souls he and Virgil
pass along the way through the Inferno portion of Dante's odyssey will
never, nor anon, have a happy ending; hence the sign above the entrance to
his netherworld: "Abandon all hope, you that enter here."

Webster's defines "despair' as: to no longer have any hope or belief that a
situation will improve or change. Well; down in the Inferno section of
Dante's concept, despair is a way of life. It's likely not much different in the
real inferno.

When people first get there, no doubt they start asking around to find out
how long they have to stay. It must be very devastating to encounter folk
who've been languishing in the fiery region of the netherworld since
practically the dawn of Man.

One of the hardest concepts to get across is the despair that people in Hell
must feel in knowing that their situation is a sealed fate with no hope of
relief. Dante's odyssey, though of course fiction, is useful for that purpose;
especially when it's accompanied by illustrations painted by Gustave Doré.

Jesus warned his listeners that they'd be better off facing eternity with their
hands and their feet amputated, and their eyes gouged out, then to end up
in the wrong place. So in my estimation, Dante's descriptions, and Gustave's
paintings, though disturbing enough in themselves, aren't sufficient to
impress just how destructive to one's morale the ultimate of fates really is.
_

 

[Grailhunter]

You found a corrupted bible that says "Gehanna"?
99.995 % of Bible say "Hell".
Maybe you need a real bible.

The word Gehenna...appears around 12 times in the actual Greek texts.
The word Hades...appear around 10 times in the actual Greek texts.
Translated frequently to Hell as a more modern symbolism.
Gehenna would have been where Christ's body would have ended up if they would not have arranged to take it.
Over all, the topic is not as straight forward as you might think.

The concept of a place were people end up in fiery torment is actually a new belief in the New Testament period. The Jews did not believe in a Hell and Greeks did not believe in a Hell.... The idea of people burning in torment for eternity was actually seen as a very morbid component for a religion, as was the resurrection of the dead.
But a fiery torment does exist, but the question is, were the writers of the New Testament struggling for a description? Could it be described accurately in human terms? Something so horrible, was fire the worst way they could describe it.
The Gospels reference Gehenna because it was a ravine where the trash and bodies burnt all the time.

They were struggling for wording. Neither the Jews or the Greeks had a word for Hell, that is an absolute fact.
So they used the imagery of Gehenna and they borrowed a word from the Greeks.....Hades. Hades is a Greek word that appears in the New Testament but there is no chance that it could occur in a Hebrew text...ie the Old Testament.
Hades was a Greek mythological god...mischief....he reigned over an underworld of the same name...Hades....or called Tartarus.
But as I said, there is no burning fire concept within the Greek belief system. Hades is more or less an underworld prison...not necessary spiritual.
The word Hell that the more modern translators use, originates from the Germanic language. Originally, "hel" meant "to cover." The word was also used to designate the goddess of the Norse underworld (Niflheim) and daughter of Loki. circa 8th century ad.

The New Testament does not give a lot of imagery of the Hell...most of what we imagine Hell to be like come from the entertainment field.

Dante Alighieri's The Divine Comedy is a classic inspiration for modern images of hell. (1320)
John Milton's Paradise Lost (1668)
C.S. Lewis's The Great Divorce (1945) borrows its title from William Blake's Marriage of Heaven and Hell (1793) and its inspiration from the Divine Comedy as the narrator is likewise guided through Hell and Heaven.

Now because of all this word jostling Taze Russell and the like came up with the idea that a fiery torment does not exist which could not be more wrong. Regardless of the exact reality of Hell, it is clear by all that is written, that it is a horrible place of punishment ...which is maybe worse than fire. The whole New Testament mission...purpose....was to save people from Hell, establish a relationship with God, and get people to Heaven. There is an extreme amount of concern regarding Hell in the New Testament ....an obvious urgency to save people from Hell and get them to Heaven.

The whole save thing is another topic....you do not save people from Heaven. Ahhh!