Once Saved Always Saved

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
Needless to say, I too am confident that my understanding is the right understanding.

I will show you grammatically, logically, and in regard to reason the flaws your view has. But this is just for fun discussion. What is important is that we both agree that the true believer is just that, a true believer, trusting in God's promises, even to the very end.

And I will, by God’s words in scriptures, make my defense.

Tong
R2746

 

[Behold]

What behold said , is highly dangerous stuff .

"behold" teaches that faith is not your Savior.
Christ is your Savior.
Do you agree, or are you trying to keep yourself saved by your faith, instead of trusting in Christ to keep you saved by His Blood.
Its not both.

Choose the right one,.. as ferris bueller and justbyfaith, chose the wrong one.

 

[Behold]

post 2661.....

Absolutely.
I only Give Credit to Jesus and the Blood of Jesus, as been "redemption".
Id never be the devil led one that tries to replace THEM, with "holding on to faith" or holding onto anything.
You can be that one, Ferris..... along with Justbyfaith.
As regarding both of you, thats your reason to be on the Forum.

 

[Behold]

Two against two then....at least until you take an honest look at @Behold's post that @Ferris Bueller has brought up in post #3033 (Once Saved Always Saved).

Not at all, deceiver.
Its the Holy Spirit against the Legalists.
Never pretend its anything else.

You're the self saver, along with ferris bueller.
And thats a real issue that is going to find you out, and the rebuke is gong to be harsh.
I told you, but you don't listen.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

It seems to me from what you are saying, that one could only know if he is truly saved or not, is only at the end, so that, it is dishonest for one to say or claim that he is truly saved or knows that he is truly saved, at any time before his end, is that right?

No, I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying you have to continue in the same assurance of faith you started out with, even to the very end, as the condition for having the ongoing results of the completed action of being made a partaker of Christ.

 

[Wrangler]

The case of the thief at the cross ... It is by faith that he was saved, and that by grace. And saved he is, what happens of his works?

I don't think he thief at the cross had the opportunity to fail to do the will of God after he called out to Jesus to be saved.

You see, we are saved by grace through faith, not by works.

Laps on the same subject. Yes, past tense, saved, not future tense. You cannot even use language correctly for doing so reveals the fallacy of your doctrine. We are saved by grace but then we obligations and responsibilities to meet as in Matthew 7:21 & John 15:1-2.

 

[Tong2020]

@marks does not believe you can go back to unbelief for it to even be an argument.

We sure see people who professed and claimed, and even were baptized, to be believers, to be Christians, who later becomes Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, atheists, or in general, become unbelievers in Jesus Christ. But my view is this, that the true Christians do not belong to those who shrink back unto unbelief, but to those who have faith and are truly saved.

Tong
R2747

 

[justbyfaith]

What makes you think you will continue to believe?

I am sealed by the Holy Spirit (Ephesians 1:13-14, Ephesians 4:30, 2 Corinthians 1:22, 2 Corinthians 5:5) because I have a heart faith that is unto righteousness (Romans 10:10) and enduring to the end (Matthew 10:22, Hebrews 3:6, Hebrews 3:14).

I continue to give diligence to make my calling and election sure (2 Peter 1:10); and therefore I will never fall.

Don't you think it's possible you won't?

I think that the promise in 2 Peter 1:10 tells me that I won't.

Now, we ask these questions:

Those who are believing today, are they partakers of Christ?

Those who stop believing today, were they partakers of Christ before today?

Those who stop believing today, did they believe in Christ before today?

it was but of necessity that the apostles give such admonition, encouragement, and reminder, not really so that they will be saved,

yes so that they will be saved.

And round and round it goes.

Yes by faith we have access (to grace).

How do you suppose the dead get to have faith if not made alive first? That is the question you should be addressing.

Are you trying to say that a person can be made alive apart from grace?

Even if Jesus' goodness is God's blood atonement, it should be clear that the blood sanctifies (Hebrews 13:12, Hebrews 10:29) and cleanses us from all sin (1 John 1:7).

This would indicate that there will be a change of attitude and behaviour when the blood is applied; and that such a change in attitude and behaviour will continue as long as the blood is applied.

@Behold's quote:

Even if Jesus' goodness is God's blood atonement, it should be clear that the blood sanctifies This would indicate that there will be a change of attitude and behaviour when the blood is applied;

What is "clear" is that the Blood Atonement is what God uses to REDEEM, once He accepts our Faith "as Righteousness".

I notice that you "snipped" my scriptures and the rest of what I was saying there.

Being Born again, is God's Salvation, that occurs after you are "blood bought" and made RIGHTEOUS.

Practically (1 John 3:7, Romans 5:19, Matthew 5:6).

The blood atonement, is not a "opinion".
You are foolish to think its "temporary" once applied.

The blood, in 1 John 1:7, in the Greek verb tense, "continually cleanseth" us from all sin; for as long as we walk in the light as He is in the light.

If we cease to walk in the light, the blood ceases to be applied and therefore will no longer cleanse us from all sin.

In such a case it would have worked only temporarily.

Holding onto faith, can't keep you saved, nor can it cause you to be un-born again, if you dont hold unto it.

Maybe you can't be "un" born again; but you can die spiritually (James 1:14-16).

Faith is not the savior, so, holding onto it, is not going 2 save you, or keep you saved.

We have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand (Romans 5:1-2). And therefore, if we lose or throw away faith, we will lose access to grace. Since we are saved by grace (Ephesians 2:8-9), if we lose access to grace, we no longer have salvation. Therefore, if we lose or throw away faith, we lose or throw away salvation.

If you are born again, then you are eternally secure,

That would indicate that if you are born again, you will continue in His goodness (Romans 11:20-22).

 

[marks]

I have to say that’s a very good passage to cite to point out the truth as to the state of the True Christians.

So, we ask, do you have this hope referred in verse 2?

If you do, then you have purified yourself by that hope, just as God is pure, as the passage says in verse 3.

It must be realized however that this is only so for the true Christians.

Tong
R2722

Knowing that God will complete His work in us - that this is a certainty - is the same faith that propells us to walk in the Spirit today. Otherwise we are doing what we can do wanting to remain in God's good graces.

Either we trusting Him fully, or any other option amounts to trying to buy His love, for whateve we think the price we bring in our hand. "I obey, so love me!" "I'm holding onto my faith, so love me!"

I receive His love. There is NOTHING I do to convince Him to keep me as His child. It's what He wants.

Much love!

 

[Ferris Bueller]

I only Give Credit to Jesus and the Blood of Jesus, as been "redemption".
Id never be the devil led one that tries to replace THEM, with "holding on to faith" or holding onto anything.

You're literally saying that when the Bible tells us to keep believing that means replacing the blood of Christ with faith.

...since we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens...let us hold firmly to what we profess. Hebrews 4:14

Let us hold resolutely to the hope we profess, for He who promised is faithful. Hebrews 10:23

...let what you have heard from the beginning remain in you. 1 John 2:24

By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. 1 Corinthians 15:2​

It's such an absurd argument it's hardly worth addressing. You started out with a false teaching and have taken it to the next degree of absurdity. That's how false teachings work. Man starts out in the error of a false teaching then overthinks it and adds to it and ends up with more error.

 

[Behold]

No, I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying you have to continue in the same assurance of faith

No you dont.
What you "continue in" is the "new Creation" that is the New Birth, that proves you now belong to God.
This can't be changed.
You can't stop being born again.
But you have to be born again to understand it.

 

[Behold]

The blood, in 1 John 1:7, in the Greek verb tense, "continually cleanseth" us from all sin; for as long as we walk in the light as He is in the light.

If we cease to walk in the light,.

YOu are posting words, that you dont understand to try to pretend you have a clue.
This is all you do on the forum.
You think that "walking in the light" is to "abide", or to "hold unto your faith".
Its not.
I have written probably 10 Threads here, months ago, that teach and define, how to "walk in the light'.
You should have studied them, and learned something.
Instead you just want to rant your pathetic legalism, and offend the Holy Spirit.

Did you want to teach us that "water saves"?
Maybe you'd like to run back to Acts 2, and try to prove AGAIN, that you have no understanding of repentance or of the Blood Atonement as "the Gift of Righteousness",

 

[justbyfaith]

Well, there is noone on a Christian Forum, found anywhere on Earth, who needs approval more than you, justbyfaith.
So, if you can get a few heretics to root for ya, then, you still have nothing.
At least we can agree on that...

Actually, I have everything (Ephesians 1:3) regardless of whether anyone approves of me.

If I lived for man's approval, I would have caved because of @Blood Bought 1953's attacks on me long ago.

But because I live for the approval of the Lord, I continue to fight for the truth of the gospel on these boards.

And regarding your idea that i teach that being born again, can't be changed by behavior issues or though process.......well, sure.
That's correct.

Actually, if we do not continue in His goodness, we will be "cut off" (Romans 11:20-22).

There are those who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away (Luke 8:13).

They do not continue to have salvation; and to say otherwise is heresy.

Its the Holy Spirit against the Legalists.

It is the Holy Spirit against you and a few others here.

While actually, He is not against anyone but is contending for the salvation of all.

But, He is most certainly contending against your doctrines with the word.

 

[Behold]

It's such an absurd argument it's hardly worth addressing. You started out with a false teaching and have taken it to the next degree of absurdity. That's how false teachings work. Man starts out in the error of a false teaching then overthinks it and adds to it and ends up with more error.

Here is your lie.
Your lie is to say that i have taught that we dont need to keep believing.
So, that's your lie.
Stop you lying.

What i teach is that you dont hold unto your faith to keep yourself saved, as when you do that, you are trusting in your own effort to BELIEVE, when you need to only Trust in God who has already given you eternal life, as proved by being born again.

 

[Behold]

But because I live for the approval of the Lord, I continue to fight for the truth of the gospel on these boards.

.

Trying to sound spiritual, does not achieve your reason for doing it, again.

And also, if you lived for God's Approval, you would not be on a christian forum teaching your gospel of water and works, that offends deeply, the Truth, the Cross, and the Holy Spirit.

 

[marks]

Yes, any passage for that matter can be read in many ways. So the question is, what is the correct reading?

@marks request is noble and wise. And Do we not claim to do that when we read scriptures? To read them without prejudice and bias? So let’s do that.

Hebrews 3:14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end,

We have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original conviction firmly to the very end.

The becoming partakers in Christ clearly depends on the “if”. So, one becomes a partaker of Christ when the “if” is true and not when it is false. I think we can all agree to that reading, can we?

Now, we ask these questions:

Those who are believing today, are they partakers of Christ?

Those who stop believing today, were they partakers of Christ before today?

Tong
R2718

I was thinking about this last night. It's amazing what a little distance can do for the mind to clear the cobwebs.

This verse has a simple construction.

Condition 1 is true IF Condition 2 is true.

Condition 1 is, "You've become a partaker of Christ".

Condition 2 is, "you hold your confidence stedfast to the end".

IF Condition 2 is true, Condition 1 is true. IF Condition 2 is not true, then Condition 1 is not true.

Condition 1 begin true means that you have become a partaker.

Condition1 being not true means you have not become a partaker.

Condition 2 being true means you do hold your confidence steadfast to the end.

Condition 2 being not true means you do not hold your confidence stedfast to the end.

IF Condition 2 is true, this means condition 1 is true, you have become a partaker of Christ.

IF Condition 2 is not true, this means condition 2 is not true, you have not become a partaker of Christ.

There is nothing in this passage about whether a partaker of Christ will or won't continue or stop becoming a partaker of Christ.

Well, that's not entirely true, when you get into specific syntax and all, which shows "have become a partaker" as showing a new enduring state.

Much love!

 

[amigo de christo]

"behold" teaches that faith is not your Savior.
Christ is your Savior.
Do you agree, or are you trying to keep yourself saved by your faith, instead of trusting in Christ to keep you saved by His Blood.
Its not both.

Choose the right one,.. as ferris bueller and justbyfaith, chose the wrong one.

And yet you teach we could even fall away in unbelief and still one would be saved .
If God cast even the jews out of their own tree due to unbelief , HE will anyone else who continue not In Christ
thus if we dont believe in Christ , we are not HIS nor in HIM at all . As i said you are teaching massive dangerous and will
be held accountable to Christ on the day of judgment . FOR YOU taught men that even if we no longer believe in Christ
STILL we would be saved . Ye have become enamoured with an acroynm and not with CHRIST . I am so sorry for you .
My heart weeps for those who would teach such things . But expose it i must .

 

[marks]

To read them without prejudice and bias? So let’s do that.

If we don't set aside our own ideas in order to receive God's, then why even bother?

Much love!

 

[marks]

Anti-Osas: You continue to have the ongoing result of having been made a partaker of Christ if you keep believing.

Remember, the Perfect* tense brings the results of a past completed action up the present (not forever into the future). And that result continuing onward is conditional on your continued believing.

The error is in limiting the action to the same limit as the one who fails to hold their confidence. That's not in the passage, and reverses the direction of the condition. There are 2 conditions presented, and a certain relationship between them. You are changing that from what the passage says.

Much love!

 

[marks]

What behold said , is highly dangerous stuff .

How?