America war against Libya

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RubberDuckey

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America is thinking about going to war against the Libya government. http://www.prisonpla...ream-media.html

The American government, in its purest form, defends Americans from foreign and domestic enemies Romans 13:4. That's it! They shouldn't do anything else other than defend America and its people's rights. Libya poses no threat to America whatsoever. America starting a war in Libya is not the correct thing to do. But then again, America having TSA, ATG, patriot act, obamacare, etc is not the correct things to do, but I digress. So, what are your thoughts on it? Agree disagree?
 

archaeologist5

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America is thinking about going to war against the Libya government. http://www.prisonpla...ream-media.html

The American government, in its purest form, defends Americans from foreign and domestic enemies Romans 13:4. That's it! They shouldn't do anything else other than defend America and its people's rights. Libya poses no threat to America whatsoever. America starting a war in Libya is not the correct thing to do. But then again, America having TSA, ATG, patriot act, obamacare, etc is not the correct things to do, but I digress. So, what are your thoughts on it? Agree disagree?


please, give it a rest. that isn't even a credible news site. plus 'militaryintervention' is not the same as 'war'. please learn the proper definitions to words.
 

RubberDuckey

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plus 'militaryintervention' is not the same as 'war'. please learn the proper definitions to words.

[font="Verdana][size="2"][font="Verdana][size="2"][font="Verdana][size="2"]war - a[/size][/font] [/size][/font]conflict[font="Verdana][size="2"] [font="Verdana][size="2"]carried[/size][/font] [font="Verdana][size="2"]on[/size][/font] [font="Verdana][size="2"]by[/size][/font] [font="Verdana][size="2"]force[/size][/font] [font="Verdana][size="2"]of[/size][/font] [font="Verdana][size="2"]arms,[/size][/font] [font="Verdana][size="2"]as[/size][/font] [font="Verdana][size="2"]between[/size][/font] [font="Verdana][size="2"]nations[/size][/font] [font="Verdana][size="2"]or [/size][/font][font="Verdana][size="2"]between[/size][/font] [font="Verdana][size="2"]parties[/size][/font] [font="Verdana][size="2"]within[/size][/font] [font="Verdana][size="2"]a[/size][/font] [font="Verdana][size="2"]nation;[/size][/font] [font="Verdana][size="2"]warfare,[/size][/font] [font="Verdana][size="2"]as[/size][/font] [font="Verdana][size="2"]by[/size][/font] [font="Verdana][size="2"]land,[/size][/font] [font="Verdana][size="2"]sea,[/size][/font] [font="Verdana][size="2"]or [/size][/font][font="Verdana][size="2"]air.[/size][/font][/size][/font][/size][/font]
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[font="Verdana][size="2"]Actually, helping the rebels take down Libya is a war.[/size][/font]
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[color="#333333"][font="Verdana][size="2"][font="Verdana][size="2"][font="Verdana][size="2"]http://dictionary.re....com/browse/war[/size][/font][/size][/font][/size][/font]

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Choir Loft
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please, give it a rest. that isn't even a credible news site. plus 'militaryintervention' is not the same as 'war'. please learn the proper definitions to words.

Military intervention isn't the same as war?

You can't be serious. I've read other posts from you and I believe you to be an intelligent person. How can you say such a thing?

Military intervention involves putting men on the ground in battle gear, ready willing and able to KILL.

Such 'intervention' usually gets somebody hurt and that somebody is usually a citizen of a sovereign nation not under the normal jurisdiction of the Pentagon.
Such 'intervention' usually gets property damaged AND OTHER PROPERTY HI-JACKED by American commercial interests.

I think that 'intervention' is a cute little word that is used to mask something else, something called INVASION and THEFT of property that doesn't belong to us.

I think that 'intervention' is a way of hiding American hypocrisy in forcing those weaker than us to kowtow to the dictates of our military and corporate leaders in the name of liberty and democracy (something that we no longer have ourselves).

Intervention isn't a justification, it's a lie and a crime.
I for one oppose it.
America is drunk on war and we don't need any more of it.
 
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HammerStone

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Establishing a no-fly zone - which is at the crux of the argument - is by definition an act of war. Intervention is cute language meant to dress it up.

Here's why.

A no fly zone is not just a poster statement on the wall. You bomb radar sites, SAM sites, keep the air force grounded (or wiped out), and you're running patrols in sovereign airspace ready to shoot down aircraft flying over their own country. Quaddafi is undoubtedly a bad guy, but at what point do we continue to fight the world's battles? The above mentioned acts are acts of war - see any of the American conflicts of the past century or two.

All of this for a democracy? Guess what, democracy is just a tool. I think a good bit of the form of government - but it's just that - a form. The hearts and minds of the people determine where things will go. This is an area which is profoundly Islamic. In neighboring moderate Egypt, approximately 90-something percent of the populace identifies with the term Islamic fundamentalist to which well less than 10% identify as modern moderates. (I want to say 96% to 3-4%.)

I'm not knocking Islam but we have to let them figure it out at some point. The form of government alone will not accomplish this.
 
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Foreigner

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My opinion is that all a no-fly zone would do in this situation is give the rebels a better chance in killing pro-government forces.

Seems to me that a no-fly zone would in essence be aiding one side or another in a war.

In Iraq it was different. No one was shooting at Saddam's army and actively trying to depose him from the inside via a military effort.

The no-fly zone then was primarily for the safety of those citizens. Yes, it was taking sides but not to help one side defeat the other.
 

RubberDuckey

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Military intervention isn't the same as war?

You can't be serious. I've read other posts from you and I believe you to be an intelligent person. How can you say such a thing?

Military intervention involves putting men on the ground in battle gear, ready willing and able to KILL.

Such 'intervention' usually gets somebody hurt and that somebody is usually a citizen of a sovereign nation not under the normal jurisdiction of the Pentagon.
Such 'intervention' usually gets property damaged AND OTHER PROPERTY HI-JACKED by American commercial interests.

I think that 'intervention' is a cute little word that is used to mask something else, something called INVASION and THEFT of property that doesn't belong to us.

I think that 'intervention' is a way of hiding American hypocrisy in forcing those weaker than us to kowtow to the dictates of our military and corporate leaders in the name of liberty and democracy (something that we no longer have ourselves).

Intervention isn't a justification, it's a lie and a crime.
I for one oppose it.
America is drunk on war and we don't need any more of it.

I couldn't agree more and I couldn't have said it any better!!!
 

Foreigner

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"I think that 'intervention' is a way of hiding American hypocrisy in forcing those weaker than us to kowtow to the dictates of our military and corporate leaders in the name of liberty and democracy (something that we no longer have ourselves)." - rjp

--
So what you are saying is that Mr. Obama is a pawn to our corporate leaders, using the U.S. military to do their bidding. Interesting...





"I think that 'intervention' is a cute little word that is used to mask something else, something called INVASION and THEFT of property that doesn't belong to us." - rjp

-- Intersting. Please list what material items the United States has stolen from either Iraq or Afghanistan.

Doesn't have to be complete, but if it truly does happen, some concrete examples should be available...

And please don't say "oil." Iraq has given their oil contracts to China and Russia, freezing out the U.S. altogether.

Sure doesn't sound like they have forced anyone to "kowtow" to our "corporate leaders.".......does it?

 

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"I think that 'intervention' is a way of hiding American hypocrisy in forcing those weaker than us to kowtow to the dictates of our military and corporate leaders in the name of liberty and democracy (something that we no longer have ourselves)." - rjp

--
So what you are saying is that Mr. Obama is a pawn to our corporate leaders, using the U.S. military to do their bidding. Interesting...


Obama is certainly at the mercy of the military. The Pentagon is now a second government, beyond civilian control. Case in point is Mr. Obama's candidate promises to close and stop the prison in Guantamo Bay as well as to stop the war. He did neither. Considering Mr. Obama's political orientation (left) it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that some very powerful influence prevailed upon him. Not only did Obama NOT stop the war, but escalated it in Afghanistan.

No president since Truman has been able to successfully or willingly oppose the designs of the Pentagon. Case in point is the creation of the National Security Council in 1948. The constitutional requirement that only an act of congress could initiate American involvement in a war was thereby usurped. The Korean war that followed was thus labeled a 'police action', despite the loss of tens of thousands of American lives. Viet Nam was a reaction to the purported Domino Theory of Communist advance in South East Asia. The list goes on. Bottom line is that the LEGAL requirement of the uS Constitution calls for a declaration of war. Since there has been none recently, all these actions are ILLEGAL according to our own law!

This isn't some crazy theory that I thought up either. In his closing address to the American people in January of 1960 President Eisenhower uttered his famous warning about the power of the military industrial complex in America. Rev. Martin Luther King, Jr. later said that any nation that put more resources into its military than in the social infrastructure was in danger of spiritual death. King also said that the idea that America was the world's policeman flew as arrogance in the face of God and that we were in danger of divine judgment because of it. The list of voice goes on like a choir singing a dirge of warnings.

America does not listen because we are drunk on war and because we can no longer stop it. Neither can any president. Gore Vidal said that the Democratic and Republican parties are little more than two heads of the same serpent. Every election that goes by changes nothing. It matters not whether the D's or R's are in the majority.

"I think that 'intervention' is a cute little word that is used to mask something else, something called INVASION and THEFT of property that doesn't belong to us." - rjp

-- Intersting. Please list what material items the United States has stolen from either Iraq or Afghanistan.

Doesn't have to be complete, but if it truly does happen, some concrete examples should be available...

And please don't say "oil." Iraq has given their oil contracts to China and Russia, freezing out the U.S. altogether.

Sure doesn't sound like they have forced anyone to "kowtow" to our "corporate leaders.".......does it?

Remember:
The purpose of the uS military is to perpetuate itself and extend its influence.
Corporate interests for the uS war machine ARE ALWAYS are tied to military contracts.


That is the basic agenda of the uS military industrial complex. It has not changed since the days of Truman.

Booty?
Political and financial influence in the middle east has been stolen. Of what importance is that?
It is important to international investors, of which the UK and the uS are primary.
Is it any mystery that the price of oil should fluctuate violently every time some arab sneezes?
It takes six weeks for oil tankers to sail from the middle east to America (I made the run four times myself.)
Assuming that oil can be refined instantly upon arrival (which it can't), that means that there ought to be a six week delay in response to any change in middle east politics. As we all see, that isn't the way it works. Oil prices ARE NOT TIED TO THE PRODUCT. They are tied to INVESTORS and SPECULATORS. It doesn't matter who actually has possession of the stuff.

Ever notice how the price of roses goes up just before Valentine's Day? There's usualy some 'international emergency' isn't there? hmmmmm How about the price of gas just before Memorial Day or the 4th of July? Same thing. Everybody knows these 'emergencies' are fake. When a real 'emergency' comes along, the investors have a financial holiday.

What matters is speculation and investment interests, AND THAT IS WHAT AMERICA SEEKS TO PRESERVE IN THESE ENERGY WARS.

As a side note, the unrest in Egypt was triggered by a rise in the price of wheat. Guess who holds the actual wheat AS WELL AS the price futures on it? American and British speculators, that's who. The riots and governmental unrest in Egypt may have been performed by Egyptian nationals on the street, but the trigger was pulled by Anglo-American speculators. Some say the whole thing was premeditated.

In the global economy, it doesn't matter who holds the goods. What matters is the banks and investors who manage the price of the exchange of goods and that is always to their own benefit.

PLUS...
Untold hundreds of thousands of civilian lives have been lost, lives that had NOTHING to do with any assualt upon our shores.
The wars are unjust. The disruption and destruction of civilian property and lives ought to be enough to justify my point. Blood is thicker than oil.

I am not aware of the oil contracts you quote. Please provide legitimate sources.
Maintenance and security of the oil fields and trade routes is now the responsibility of the uS military (I participated in some of that at one time).

It ALWAYS goes back to the military and uS commerce. ALWAYS.
 

Foreigner

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Obama is certainly at the mercy of the military. The Pentagon is now a second government, beyond civilian control.

-- Ummmm....no. I love a good unsubstaniated conspiracy as much as the next guy, but...



Case in point is Mr. Obama's candidate promises to close and stop the prison in Guantamo Bay as well as to stop the war. He did neither.

-- Your information, either intentionally or accidentally, is flat out wrong.

First off, Mr. Obama never said he would get us out of Afghanistan. He stated that Afghanistan was the only "just conflict" the US Military was involved in. He said we would "fight it to win it."

He promised to get us out of Iraq and to my understanding, the deadline for that happening has been set.

As far as why Gitmo has not been closed, the US military has nothing to do with that.

The foreign nations that he was hoping to send the majority of prisons to have refused to take them - even after he as offered incentives.

Congress are the ones who have kept him from moving the prisoners stateside. That combined with the fact that the majority of Americans opposed bringing them stateside for trials are the reasons it is still open - NOT the military.


The rest of your post sounds just like Timothy McVie. There is no point in commenting on it further.



I would point out one something that tends to take the wind out of the sails of your statements:

The U.S. (Hillary Clinton and Barak Obama) has only said it would participate in a no-fly zone if it is in conjunction with other countries - not unilaterally. Seems to me that if the US Military had the clout you claim it does, they would be pushing for that action. Would allow them (and the industrial complex) to justify the purchase of additional planes, bombs, etc.

Secretary of Defense Gates flat out opposes a no-fly zone. Again, this runs counter to your claims.

If the US Military was truly running the show, planes would already be flying off carriers in the Med.

Another simple point is that if what you were saying is true, the US military would not be a mere shell of what it was during the height of the Cold War.
 

aspen

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Establishing a no-fly zone - which is at the crux of the argument - is by definition an act of war. Intervention is cute language meant to dress it up.

Here's why.

A no fly zone is not just a poster statement on the wall. You bomb radar sites, SAM sites, keep the air force grounded (or wiped out), and you're running patrols in sovereign airspace ready to shoot down aircraft flying over their own country. Quaddafi is undoubtedly a bad guy, but at what point do we continue to fight the world's battles? The above mentioned acts are acts of war - see any of the American conflicts of the past century or two.

All of this for a democracy? Guess what, democracy is just a tool. I think a good bit of the form of government - but it's just that - a form. The hearts and minds of the people determine where things will go. This is an area which is profoundly Islamic. In neighboring moderate Egypt, approximately 90-something percent of the populace identifies with the term Islamic fundamentalist to which well less than 10% identify as modern moderates. (I want to say 96% to 3-4%.)

I'm not knocking Islam but we have to let them figure it out at some point. The form of government alone will not accomplish this.


I think this is more of a UN initiative than a US effort - right? And as far as I know, the UN cannot declare war.

 

l33tace

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All I keep thinking is where are all those war protesters? They all enlisted now or something? Now they have three wars to have their fun with... though this was all suppose to be ended two years ago? Makes me want to pick up a sign and go protest infront of the er whitehouse to keep them from feeling lonely... but I don't want to be thrown into jail and probably never seen again... or beat up by an Iraq war protester vet if there are still any that are still civilians. Is there like a big surge of enlistees at the armed forces recruiter or something? Ok lets hold hands "com by ya my lord, com by ya..." maybe they will come out. Maybe they are all the ones buying up the potassium iodide tablets and then staying indoors? Hording teh food and digging holed in their cellars? Strange noises late at night now, ya know? o_O
 

Thankful 1

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Christians have no say in what the world does. (John 15:18-19) “If the world hates you, remember that it hated me before you. If you belonged to the world, the world would love you as its own; but because you do not belong to the world because my choice withdrew you from the world.”
 

Foreigner

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Now what was that comment about this not being true?


-- UN voted for a no-fly zone. The French and British leading the way with planes.
The U.S. firing 100+ Tomahawks but state there will never be American ground forces in Libya and Obama is saying the command and control for this whole operation will be turned over "in days, not weeks."

Seems kind of a meely-mouth military operation for a country that is being run by our military and our military industrial complex, doesn't it?
 

l33tace

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Christians have no say in what the world does. (John 15:18-19) “If the world hates you, remember that it hated me before you. If you belonged to the world, the world would love you as its own; but because you do not belong to the world because my choice withdrew you from the world.”
That's " therefore the world hateth you." not withdraw from the world. Be in the world, not of it. But I've heard lots of libs that want to shut down Christians by trying to use the bible against us saying it means this or that when it doesn't. That was a big thing in the last elections, it just burns them up. It's nothing new though, look at the Russian revolution or French revolution (most any revolution), they shut the Christians up you bet, and a whole lot of people were dead. Christians don't withdraw from the world because the Holy Spirit (GOD) is here at work. Once He's gone, they can have their crummy world all to themselves... at which point they will try to destroy themselves and extinguish the human race.