Women In Leadership In the Church?

Selene said:

Sorry Aspen, Phebe was not an ordained deacon. The Greek words for "minister" and "servant" is the same as the Greek word for "deacon." Strong's bilbical translation used the word "office of deacon" three times in the New Testament, and Romans 16:1 is not one of them. In the Roman Catholic Church, I am a female "minister." I am actually a Minister of the Word, but my position as minister is not an ordained one.

In Christ,
Selene

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That is because it doesn't make sense to say "Phoebe, the office of deacon......... ". She is a deacon. Also, I never said she was ordained.

Why do you all use the bible? John tells us that if one sins he or she hasnot seen or known God, yet people will say that even the apostles sinned, and that is after they received the Holy Spirit.



Jesus never chose a woman for any job that had any authority. Paul explains that a woman should keep her mouth shut in church. Paul says God told him that, and if people do not believe him then don’t believe them.



People will make the bible say anything they want itto say. So why do we even use the bible?



I asked Jesus if woman should ever have anyleadership in the church, and he told me: NO!



Stop listening to people twist the written Word of God. If God does not tell you then don’t believeit. Man has been following Satan for so long that the truth can’t be recognized. Man has no idea what the truth is any more.

aspen said:

That is because it doesn't make sense to say "Phoebe, the office of deacon......... ". She is a deacon. Also, I never said she was ordained.

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Hi Aspen,

Phebe was actually a minister or a servant. The Latin Vulgate used the Latin word "ministerio" for Romans 16:1 rather than the Latin word "diacones." In the Greek language, the Greek words for "minister," "servant," and "deacon" are exactly the same. It is diakonos.

In the Latin language, however, these words are not the same, so it's easier to distinguish between those who were called as ministers of God to those called to the office of deacon. The Latin Vulgate is actually the best Bible to use. Among the Protestant Bible, the King James Version would be the best one to use, and in the KJV, Romans 16:1 used the word "servant" rather than deacon.

In Christ,
Selene

Sorry Selene, I was wrong about being ordained, thanks for pointing me into further studies..

ORDINATION, ORDAIN

The appointing, consecrating, or commissioning of persons for special service to the Lord and His people.

English Translations KJV uses ordain to translate over twenty Hebrew and Greek words. These words relate to a variety of ideas such as God's work and providence; the appointment to an office or a task; and the establishment of laws, principles, places, or observances. While all these ideas do not relate directly to ordination, they contain basic concepts of divine purpose, choice, appointment, and institution that undergird the practice.

Old Testament

Four primary examples provide Old Testament precedents for ordination: the consecration of Aaron and his sons as priests to God (Ex. 28-29; Lev. 8-9), the dedication of the Levites as servants of God (Num. 8:5-13), the appointment of seventy elders to assist Moses (Num. 11:16-17,24-25); and the commissioning of Joshua as Moses' successor (Num. 27:18-23). The variety in these examples helps explain the various contemporary understandings of ordination.

The ordination of the priest was based on God's choice of Aaron and his sons "that he may minister unto me in the priest's office" (Ex. 28:1). The ordination itself was a seven-day act of consecration accompanied by washing, donning vestments, anointing, sacrificing, and eating (Lev. 8). The basic Hebrew term for "ordination" literally means to "fill the hands" and may refer to filling the priest's hands with the offerings (Lev. 8:27). The ordination of the Levites also was based on God's choice of them "to do the service of the tabernacle of the congregation" (Num. 8:15). The ordination involved cleansing, presentation before the Lord, laying on of hands by the whole congregation, offering the Levites as a wave offering, and sacrifices.

The appointment of the seventy to assist Moses in bearing "the burden of the people" (Num. 11:17) was at God's initiative, but Moses selected persons who were known as elders and leaders. Their ordination involved standing with Moses and receiving from the Lord the Spirit who previously was upon Moses. When the Spirit rested on them, they prophesied (11:25). The ordination of a successor for Moses was at Moses' initiative (27:15-17), but Joshua was chosen by God because he was "a man in whom is the spirit" (v. 18). Joshua's ordination involved standing before the priest and all of the congregation and being commissioned in their sight. Moses laid his hand on Joshua, and Moses placed some of his authority on Joshua, including the role of inquiring of the judgment of the Urim.

New Testament

The New Testament practice of ordination is generally associated with the laying on of hands; but other appointments, consecrations, and commissioning must be considered even if they lack formal investiture.

Jesus' appointment of the twelve "that they should be with him, and that he might send them forth to preach" (Mark 3:14) was based on prayer (Luke 6:12), His choice and call (Mark 3:13), and the apostles' responses. When He sent them out, He gave them "power and authority" (Luke 9:1) but no formal ordination. The same was true of the seventy (Luke 10:1). The Great Commission was given solely on the basis of Jesus' "power" (or authority, Matt. 28:18). The Holy Spirit was given directly without the laying on of hands (John 20:22). The disciples were chosen and appointed by Jesus for their task of bearing fruit (John 15:16).

Several other New Testament passages describe appointments without reference to ordination. Having been chosen by lot, Matthias was installed as one of the twelve (Acts 1:21-26). Barnabas and Paul appointed elders "in every church" after prayer and fasting (14:23). Titus was left in Crete to perform the same function (Titus 1:5).

Several passages describe ordination accompanied by the laying on of hands. Acts 6:1-6 tells of the appointment of seven men to the daily ministry to widows in the Jerusalem congregation. Barnabas and Paul were set apart for the work to which God had called them (Acts 13:1-3). Timothy was chosen by prophecy, recommended by Paul, and ordained to his task by the laying on of hands by Paul and the assembly of elders (1 Tim. 4:14; 2 Tim. 1:6). References to laying on of hands in 1 Timothy 5:22 and Hebrews 6:2 likely deal with other practices than ordination.

My brother, since when is man's unbelief and religion so powerful enough to tie God's hands?

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Just look at all the wonderful work the church isnt doing

Being ordained means nothing to God? Tell that to God for appointing MEN to be His Apostles. Ordain means to appoint

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God calls. men appoint.

did not Jesus tell the disciples,

"Mat 23:11 But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant."

Yet they decided they where too important to serve, and appointed others.

A servant is not above Hid master and the disciples where no where like Christ, except for a few moments that where mentioned

In His Love

Why cant we Just believe God and let HIm do His work.

mjrhealth said:

Just look at all the wonderful work the church isnt doing

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My brother, I am a Catholic. The Catholic Church has done many things that you are not aware of. And when I say "Church" I am speaking of the Catholic faithful. We have established schools,hospitals and hospices for the elderly and the sick, orphanages, counseling centers, and many more. We have always stood against abortion. Mother Teresa dedicated her life to helping the poor and the orphan that India calls her the "Saint of the Gutters." Father Damian dedicated his life to helping the lepers who were rejected by society. Father Maximilian Kolbe (a Polish priest) volunteered to take the place of an inmate who was condemned to die by the Nazis. Pope John Paul II forgave a man who tried to kill him and even confronted the Mafia who murdered a priest. We remember what all the saints did.

There are many Catholic orgainizations out there helping the poor and the sick, but not many see it simply because we don't advertise it. However, those who are poor and have used Catholic social services (such as the one on my island) do know about it.

Now, you may say that this is nothing but "good works." But just bear in mind that we don't believe in "faith alone" (sola fide). After all, while they are still living in this temporary world, the sons and daughters of God are not going to sit around doing nothing.

God calls. men appoint.

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The fact that Jesus chose 12 men from among His many disciples is an appointment. He did not choose everyone to become an Apostle. And yes there is a difference between an Apostle and a disciple.

did not Jesus tell the disciples,

"Mat 23:11 But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant."

Yet they decided they where too important to serve, and appointed others.

A servant is not above Hid master and the disciples where no where like Christ, except for a few moments that where mentioned

In His Love

Why cant we Just believe God and let HIm do His work.

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My brother, the Apostles were appointed to be that example for others to follow. They are indeed leaders who built God's Church through Christ. And to be a real leader is to be a servant. That is one of the things that our government leaders keep forgetting. Those whom we elect as Governor and President tend to forget that they are really "Public Servants." But for some reason, they seem to forget that.

The priests are called to lead by serving God and His Church. And that is what they do. As St. Paul says, a man is the head of his family and represents Christ, who is Head of God's family (the Church). Both men and women are called to serve God, but only a man is appointed to take the office of the priest. This is the "work of God." Anything outside of this is man's doing.

Show me where in the Old and New Testament did God choose a female Apostle. Show me where in the Old and New Testament do you find a female priest. You will find none because it was never in God's plan to have a woman become the head of a family.

In Christ,
Selene

Selene do you believe every Word of God? If so you know we are no longer, Jew nor Greek, male or female, slave or free, we are in Christ, and as one in Christ we are all sons.....

Gal.3 :
26 You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus,
27 for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

So that tells me that Christ does not see male nor female, He sees us as Sons, and as Sons, we woman have the right to preach the Word as a Son of Christ Jesus Himself...So I see myself as a disciple of Christ..and follow this..

Mark 16:

15 He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation.
16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.
17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues;
18 they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well."


Now in 1 Timothy 2 you will see that Paul is giving his request to Timothy, that was Paul personal request....

1 Timothy 2:

2:1 I urge, then, first of all, that requests, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for everyone--
2 for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness.
3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior,
4 who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.
5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
6 who gave himself as a ransom for all men--the testimony given in its proper time.
7 And for this purpose I was appointed a herald and an apostle--I am telling the truth, I am not lying--and a teacher of the true faith to the Gentiles.
8 I want men everywhere to lift up holy hands in prayer, without anger or disputing.
9 I also want women to dress modestly, with decency and propriety, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or expensive clothes,
10 but with good deeds, appropriate for women who profess to worship God.
11 A woman should learn in quietness and full submission.
12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent.
13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve.
14 And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner.
15 But women will be saved through childbearing--if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.



And if we go back to Genesis with Adam and Eve, we will see where Adam was just as much to blame as Eve, he made a choice

Genesis 3:
2 The woman said to the serpent, "We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden,
3 but God did say, 'You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.'"
4 "You will not surely die," the serpent said to the woman.
5 "For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."
6 When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it.

12 The man said, "The woman you put here with me--she gave me some fruit from the tree, and I ate it."
13 Then the LORD God said to the woman, "What is this you have done?" The woman said, "The serpent deceived me, and I ate."

They each had a share in it and they both shifted the blame, Adam was with her and he did not stop her nor interfered..
Now you see in 1 Timothy 2 verse 15, where Paul is saying women will be saved through childbearing, if they continue in faith, holiness and love....That is not correct really, for we are saved by grace, when we accept Jesus as Lord and Savior..

As we see in Mark 16:16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

So I have been saved by Christ, and adopted into His family, as a Son of the Living God...for His Word tells me that...So I can preach the Truth of Christ Jesus

It seems to me that Paul was against women in authority. He probably would not let himself be subject to the teachings of a woman. That being said, I believe a man has the authority whether or not to subject himself to the teaching and authority of a woman in leadership. It would be easier if men were the leaders all the time, because men have problems subjecting themselves to women. However, if the covering of men allows for a woman to take these positions that they have been gifted in, I believe they are indeed still under the authority and have not gained mastership over any man. Also, I believe it isn't a sin for men in authority to deny women this authority and women should respect the decision of whomever has authority over them. I personally don't have a problem being taught by women, even those in authority. I willingly place myself under their teaching and hold them to the same standard as a man who proves himself as a true student of God. I believe the authority of woman in such position is always in danger, and must remain protected by men in authority. In this I see no conflict with scripture.

UHCAIan said:

Deborah was a prophet of God and a judge of Israel. Gdo calls women to lead in the church today. God blesses both male and female pastors and leaders who lead under His direction. Ordination does not mean a thing, the anointing makes all the difference.

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I DID say that a woman can preach, evangelize, and even prophesize. But she is not chosen as a priest. Deborah was a prophetess, not a priestress. The Bible DID say that a woman can prophesize, but where did it say that she can take the status of a priest? Also, Deborah was NOT anointed.

Acts 21:9 And he had four daughters, virgins, who did prophesy.

Shep said:

Selene do you believe every Word of God? If so you know we are no longer, Jew nor Greek, male or female, slave or free, we are in Christ, and as one in Christ we are all sons.....

Gal.3 :
26 You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus,
27 for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

So that tells me that Christ does not see male nor female, He sees us as Sons, and as Sons, we woman have the right to preach the Word as a Son of Christ Jesus Himself...So I see myself as a disciple of Christ..and follow this..

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What does this have to do with a woman becoming "head of the house?" What you quote here in Scripture has to do with salvation. It means that it does not matter if you're a male, female, slave, Greek, or Jew if you have salvation in Christ Jesus. We are all sons and daughters of God through faith in Jesus Christ. But this has nothing to do with a woman becoming a priest.

I do believe the word of God, and if you do believe in the word of God, you would know that Jesus chose ONLY men to become Apostles and that there are no female priests or priestresses in the Old and New Testament. Women are not "head of the household." The Bible says that men are "head of the family" and represent Christ who is "head of God's family" (the Church). This is why women cannot become priests, and no where in the Bible will you find a female priest.

Priest in what sense? We, the brothers and sisters who make up the body of Christ, are a priesthood. We all have the right (declared righteous by faith) to enter boldly into the presence of God on behalf of man (the job of a priest). As far as the head of the household goes, that belongs to the man, and the woman should serve him conditionally on his love for her unconditionally based on Christ's love for the church. The only reason this would change is if the man does not carry his mantle and in fact gives it to the wife to wear. She would still be under his given authority, out of perfect order but still under the provision of God's grace in the situation of the man's disobedience or inability to follow the pattern God set for the household.

I agree with your comment about leadership on all accounts, and especially the topic of women in leadership and the roles of a husband and wife. A husband in his position of leadership is as a servant; being responsible for her care and well being, which is something that requires complete dependency on God; the responsibility to serve one other person is too much for any of us to bear according to Christ's standard, unless we allow Christ to bear that responsibility on our behalf.

UHCAIan said:

I am a male I subject myself to the leadership of a female. My pastor is a woman and an ordained elder in the United Holy Church of America. I minister thew ord of God but I subject myself to the Head of the House which turns out to be a woman. Am I worng and all the other men in my church wrong for subjecting ourselves to our spiritual head?

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I believe in a sense, you "the male leadership in the church" are in fact her spiritual head, and that delegated authority and "covering" is what makes it so she isn't a usurper of the authority that God gave the men. In that sense I believe the practice is fine.

A gentle reminder

Mar 10:42 But Jesus called them to him, and saith unto them, Ye know that they which are accounted to rule over the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and their great ones exercise authority upon them.
Mar 10:43 But so shall it not be among you: but whosoever will be great among you, shall be your minister:
Mar 10:44 And whosoever of you will be the chiefest, shall be servant of all.
Mar 10:45 For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

There is one head of the Church, that is Christ, we all are servants to the people, not heads over them. It is God that calls, mens ordination mean nothing. So may ordained ministers, so few called of God.

Go a head and teach ladies, God wont stop you.

In His Love

UHCAIan said:

I am a male I subject myself to the leadership of a female. My pastor is a woman and an ordained elder in the United Holy Church of America. I minister thew ord of God but I subject myself to the Head of the House which turns out to be a woman. Am I worng and all the other men in my church wrong for subjecting ourselves to our spiritual head?

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I am a single female, and I subject myself only to God. I also minister to the word of God. I am actually a Minister of the Word, but I am not a priest. My position as Minister of the Word is not an ordained one, but it is recognized by the Church.

You, as a male, are wrong to subject yourself to a woman. Nowhere in the Bible does it say that a man should be subject to a woman, and nowhere in Scripture does it say that a woman is "head of the household." It says that men must subject themselves to God and act as "head of the family" in the same way as Christ is Head of the Church.

1 Corinthians 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

Sacred Scripture clearly says that the head of every man is Christ.....yet you put a woman as your head. Now, show me where in Scripture did it say that the head of a man is a woman.

In Christ,
Selene

mjrhealth said:

A gentle reminder

Mar 10:42 But Jesus called them to him, and saith unto them, Ye know that they which are accounted to rule over the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and their great ones exercise authority upon them.
Mar 10:43 But so shall it not be among you: but whosoever will be great among you, shall be your minister:
Mar 10:44 And whosoever of you will be the chiefest, shall be servant of all.
Mar 10:45 For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

There is one head of the Church, that is Christ, we all are servants to the people, not heads over them. It is God that calls, mens ordination mean nothing. So may ordained ministers, so few called of God.

Go a head and teach ladies, God wont stop you.

In His Love

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Now, where in my post did I ever say that a woman is not allowed to teach? Do you understand what I saying? I said that a woman is allowed to preach, but she is not allowed to become a PRIEST. Do you understand the difference between the words "preach" and "priest"?

Are you saying that because the woman is the weaker sex, she should be the one to rule and to be exulted???? I don't think "sexual gender" was what Jesus had in mind when He said that the "least shall be the greatest and the greatest shall be the least."

The ordination of the priests is found in the Last Supper. Jesus had the last supper with ONLY His Apostles, who were ALL men. When Jesus said at the last supper, "Do this in memory of me," He was commanding ONLY His Apostles to perform this rite of the Eucharist. And all the Apostles whom He appointed were MEN. Show me where in the Bible did Jesus appointed a woman to become an Apostle.

Luke 22:13-20 And they going, found as he had said to them, and made ready the pasch. And when the hour was come, he sat down, and the twelve apostles with him. And he said to them: With desire I have desired to eat this pasch with you, before I suffer. For I say to you, that from this time I will not eat it, till it be fulfilled in the kingdom of God. And having taken the chalice, he gave thanks, and said: Take, and divide it among you: For I say to you, that I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, till the kingdom of God come. And taking bread, he gave thanks, and brake; and gave to them, saying: This is my body, which is given for you. Do this for a commemoration of me. In like manner the chalice also, after he had supped, saying: This is the chalice, the new testament in my blood, which shall be shed for you.

As you can see from Sacred Scripture, Jesus had the last supper with ONLY His twelve Apostles who were all MEN, and He ORDERED these men to do this rite in memory of Him. Again, show me where in the Bible did Jesus appoint a woman to become an Apostle. Show me where in the Bible it says that a married woman is the "head of the family." Show me where in the Bible do you find a female priest. You can go ahead and look in the Old or New Testament to find a female priest. So far, none of you have found any female priest. Why? Because there is none. Since God did not appoint any females priests, don't you think that we should follow God?

In Christ,
Selene