The Myth of saying that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception !

brightfame52 · Oct 12, 2021

Jesus Mission was never to come and save all mankind 2

Next He is to raise them Up, the Tribes of Jacob/Israel Isa 49:6

6 And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.

The word raise here is the same word used in Isa 26:19

19 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.

Its the word quwm and means:

to rise, arise, stand, rise up, stand up

Also the word is used in Amos 9:11

In that day will I raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen, and close up the breaches thereof; and I will raise up his ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old:

Which i perceive is the same as the raising up of the tribes of Jacob, all of which was accomplished in the raising up of Christ from the dead Jn 2:19

19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.

Kermos · Oct 13, 2021

charity said:
Hello Kermos,

charity said:
I hope you will bear with me, as I consider the verses you have quoted in your entry (above),

Hello @charity,

The post you quoted is a continuation from this prior post in this thread, so your post jumps into the middle of the correspondence.

charity said:
beginning with John 14:6, quoted from verse 3:-

'And if I go and prepare a place for you.
I will come again, and receive you unto Myself;
that where I am, there ye may be also.
And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.
Thomas saith unto Him,
"Lord, we know not whither Thou goest;
and how can we know the way?"
Jesus saith unto him,
"I am the way, the truth, and the life:
no man cometh unto the Father, but by Me."
(John 14:3-6)

* The Lord Jesus Christ tells His disciples not only where He is going ('unto the Father'), but also the means by which they can be with Him. it is by the Lord Jesus Christ. For He has told them that He will come again, and receive them unto Himself, that where He is, there they may be also. Praise His Name!

The Lord Jesus clearly tells all we disciples of His, His sheep (John 10:27-29), that the Son of God is the exclusive way to the Father with "I am the Way, and the Truth, and the Life; no one comes to the Father but through Me" (John 14:6).

Are you saying there is another way to the Father besides the Lord Jesus Christ?

Are you saying that the Lord Jesus Christ is not the Truth?

charity said:
* Then you quoted John 10:27-30:-
'My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me:
And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish,
neither shall any man pluck them out of My hand.
My Father, which gave them Me, is greater than all;
and no man is able to pluck them out of My Father's hand.
I and My Father are one.'
(John 10:27-30)

* The Lord Jesus was talking to Jews, unbelieving Jews, who sought to kill Him, so He did not speak to them plainly: once more He resorts to figurative speech. They had been given opportunity to believe.

John chapter 10 is absent of anyting like "They had been given opportunity to believe" (your words).

charity said:
The works that He did, were obviously Divine miracles, and therefore should have testified to Who He was to anyone with eyes to see. No, 'He came unto His own, and His own received Him not. But as many as received Him, to them gave He power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on His name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.' (Joh 1:11-13)

The Apostle John wrote "nor of the will of man" (John 1:13); therefore, John makes it clear that it is not a free will choice by man.

charity said:
He came unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel, but only a remnant would believe. They were His sheep, for they heard His voice and followed Him. Paul explains in Romans why a remnant only were saved, but assured that believing remnant, that one day all Israel would be saved.

'For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery,
lest ye should be wise in your own conceits;
that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written,
'There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.'
As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes:
but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.'
(Rom 11:25-29)

Paul wrote "they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel" (Romans 9:6).

In reference to unbelieving Israelites, Paul wote "for if God did not spare the natural branches" (Romans 11:21).

"if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree" (Romans 11:17).

All of Israel will be saved from the wrath of God (Romans 11:26), and this Israel is made up of the persons whom God chooses to compose Israel (Romans 11:24). God grafts into Israel the persons whom God grafts into Israel; moreover this is not a function of the free will choice of man, rather this is the Power of God unto salvation (1 Corinthians 1:24, Romans 1:16).

continued to post #2283

Kermos · Oct 13, 2021

continued from post #2282

charity said:
* You referred also to Mark 7:31-35:-
'And again, departing from the coasts of Tyre and Sidon,
He came unto the sea of Galilee, through the midst of the coasts of Decapolis.
And they bring unto Him one that was deaf, and had an impediment in his speech;
and they beseech Him to put His hand upon him.
And He took him aside from the multitude, and put His fingers into his ears,
and He spit, and touched his tongue;
And looking up to heaven, He sighed, and saith unto him, "Ephphatha, that is, Be opened."'
And straightway his ears were opened, and the string of his tongue was loosed, and he spake plain.'
(Mark 7:31-35)

* This was a miraculous happening towards a man who had an impediment of his speech, so not dumb, but possibly rendered so by his inability to hear. This man's malady was Satanic in origin, his tongue bound:The Lord loosed the string of his tongue, and once loosed he spoke plainly (see Luke 13:16 [10-16]).

The Truth that Lord Jesus illumines in this "Ephphatha" account is that an act of Christ is required for a person to hear and understand and speak (Mark 7:31-35).

The power of God causes us believers to hear His voice, understand His sayings, and proclaim His glorious Truth FOR THE WORD OF GOD (JOHN 1:14) SAYS "APART FROM ME YOU CAN DO NOTHING" (JOHN 15:5).

charity said:
* John 15:16: Here the Lord Jesus was talking to His disciples:-
'Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth:
but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of My Father I have made known unto you.
Ye have not chosen Me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you,
that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain:
that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in My name, He may give it you.'
(Joh 15:15)

* These were the twelve, chosen indeed by God the Father, through the Son.

@charity, you wrote a lie.

Judas departed BEFORE Lord Jesus spoke the words recorded in John chapter 15.

So, since you preach that you can choose Jesus unto salvation in direct contradiction to the Word of God "you did not choose Me" (John 15:16), then in effect you eliminate yourself as a friend of Jesus for He says "I have called you friends, for all things that I have heard from My Father I have made known to you. You did not choose Me but I chose you" (John 15:15-16).

charity said:
* John 15:19:
'If the world hate you, ye know that it hated Me before it hated you.
If ye were of the world, the world would love his own:
but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world,
therefore the world hateth you.'
(Joh 15:18-19)

* These are the twelve, many who would go on to know martyrdom for His Name.

Again, @charity, you wrote a lie because Judas departed before Lord Jesus spoke the words recorded in John chapter 15.

I perceive that you convey that the Word of God spoken during the supper recorded in John chapters 14 to 17 is inapplicable to disciples beyond the 11 apostles.

The Lord willing, I will proclaim more about the recorded Word of God in John 15:16 and John 15:19 in subsequent posts.

charity said:
'* You also referred to:-
John 17:20-21, - 'Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on Me through their word;
That they all may be one; as Thou, Father, art in me, and I in Thee,
that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent Me.'

Matthew 19:25-26, - 'When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?
But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.'
John 15:5, - 'I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in Me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit:
for without me ye can do nothing.'
Isaiah 42:8, - 'I am the LORD: that is My Name: and My glory will I not give to another, neither My praise to graven images.'
Psalm 3:8. - 'Salvation belongeth unto the LORD: Thy blessing is upon Thy people.'

* With respect these verses should be kept within their context, and understood in relation to it. For they do not provide the evidence you require to back your argument.

"Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on Me through their word" (John 17:20), so Jesus conveys here that John's word recording Jesus word in John 15:16 and John 15:19 is part of "believe on Me through their word".

"With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible" (Matthew 19:26), so Jesus conveys that a free will choice by a person toward Jesus is impossible.

"for without me ye can do nothing" (John 15:5), so Jesus conveys that man cannot come to Jesus apart from the coming being wrought in God (John 3:21).

"My glory will I not give to another" (Isaiah 42:8), so the Word of God conveys that a person cannot choose God because the Word of God reserves the choosing of persons to salvation with the glory of saving a person unto Himself.

"Salvation belongeth unto the LORD" (Psalm 3:8), so the Psalmist conveys that a person cannot choose God because the Word of God reserves the choosing of persons to salvation unto Himself.

Free-willian philosophy dictates that a person choose Jesus unto salvation because without the person choosing Jesus the person is hell bound, so salvation is dependent upon the person that chooses Jesus which means that the person gets the glory for salvation.

Free-willian philosophers are antichrist.

Unless the Lord opens your eyes (John 9), then you cannot see the Truth (John 3:3).

charity said:
* Salvation is open to all who will believe on the Lord Jesus Christ as their Saviour and Lord, and acknowledge Him to be the Christ, the Son of the Living God.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Your concluding paragraph hinges on a person controlling belief/faith; in other words, a person independently manipulating oneself such that one causes oneself to believe on Jesus.

"This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29) says Jesus the Lord.

So "that you believe in Him whom He has sent" is absolutely "the work of God", not man, but truly believing on Jesus is "the work of God".

"By grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His work, created in Christ Jesus" (Ephesians 2:8-10) wrote the Apostle Paul, so Paul is in accord with the Lord (John 6:29).

So "faith"/belief is absolutely "not of yourselves" moreover "saved"/salvation is "not as a result of works" of a choice by man yet truly "we are His work, created in Christ Jesus".

Righteous belief, that is believing in Son whom the Father has sent, is the exclusive act of God in man.

Salvation is reserved be God to persons whom God chooses.

To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and forever. Amen. (Jude 1:25)

Kermos · Oct 13, 2021

charity said:
* John 15:16: Here the Lord Jesus was talking to His disciples:-
'Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth:
but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of My Father I have made known unto you.
Ye have not chosen Me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you,
that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain:
that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in My name, He may give it you.'
(Joh 15:15)

* These were the twelve, chosen indeed by God the Father, through the Son.

* John 15:19:
'If the world hate you, ye know that it hated Me before it hated you.
If ye were of the world, the world would love his own:
but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world,
therefore the world hateth you.'
(Joh 15:18-19)

* These are the twelve, many who would go on to know martyrdom for His Name.

This is more about the recorded Word of God in John 15:16 and John 15:19 as mentioned i. post #2283.

Jesus' disciples specifically identified Matthias and Joseph as two men who "accompanied us all the time" - see that it is all the time they were with Jesus as described here:

"'Therefore it is necessary that of the men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us - beginning with the baptism of John until the day that He was taken up from us - one of these [must] become a witness with us of His resurrection.' So they put forward two men, Joseph called Barsabbas (who was also called Justus), and Matthias." (Acts 1:21-23)

In the upper room occupied by Jesus' disciples who put forward Matthias and Joseph were Peter and John and James and Andrew, Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon the Zealot, and Judas the son of James (Acts 1:13), and these disciples recognized Matthias and Joseph as disciples that were with them from the beginning, and not a single disciple contradicted Peter's prounouncement of "men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us - beginning with the baptism of John until the day that He was taken up from us".

Thus, Matthias and Joseph are at least two more people beyond the twelve who are specifically identified at the supper covered in John chapters 13-17.

Matthias and Joseph were also present when Lord Jesus says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16, includes righteously obeying God) as well as "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation), so Jesus also spoke these glorious words to Matthias and Joseph.

Therefore, you made a false claim when you conveyed that Jesus said "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" to the eleven apostles exclusively (Judas had already left the supper).

charity · Oct 14, 2021

Kermos reply#2282:-

Charity said:-
beginning with John 14:6, quoted from verse 3:-

'And if I go and prepare a place for you.
I will come again, and receive you unto Myself;
that where I am, there ye may be also.
And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.
Thomas saith unto Him,
"Lord, we know not whither Thou goest;
and how can we know the way?"
Jesus saith unto him,
"I am the way, the truth, and the life:
no man cometh unto the Father, but by Me."
(John 14:3-6)

* The Lord Jesus Christ tells His disciples not only where He is going ('unto the Father'), but also the means by which they can be with Him. it is by the Lord Jesus Christ. For He has told them that He will come again, and receive them unto Himself, that where He is, there they may be also. Praise His Name!

Click to expand...

The Lord Jesus clearly tells all we disciples of His, His sheep (John 10:27-29), that the Son of God is the exclusive way to the Father with "I am the Way, and the Truth, and the Life; no one comes to the Father but through Me" (John 14:6).

Are you saying there is another way to the Father besides the Lord Jesus Christ?

Are you saying that the Lord Jesus Christ is not the Truth?

Hello @Kermos,

No, Christ Jesus our living Lord is the only way to the Father, both spiritually and physically (ie., for reconciliation, and for resurrection). He is the true and living way to the Father.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

charity · Oct 14, 2021

@Kermos reply #2282

@Charity said:-
* Then you quoted John 10:27-30:-
'My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me:
And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish,
neither shall any man pluck them out of My hand.
My Father, which gave them Me, is greater than all;
and no man is able to pluck them out of My Father's hand.
I and My Father are one.'
(John 10:27-30)

* The Lord Jesus was talking to Jews, unbelieving Jews, who sought to kill Him, so He did not speak to them plainly: once more He resorts to figurative speech. They had been given opportunity to believe.

Click to expand...

John chapter 10 is absent of anyting like "They had been given opportunity to believe" (your words).

'He came unto His own,
and His own received Him not.
But as many as received Him,
to them gave He power to become the sons of God,
even to them that believe on His name: ... '
(John 1:11-12)

Hello @Kermos,

Yes those are my own words: but I did not give any indication that they were anything other than my own words, so I do not see why you are drawing attention to them. For the Lord came to His own, (the lost sheep of the house of Israel), to confirm the promises made to them by The Father, and to destroy the works of the Devil. This He did. Israel did have the gospel of the Kingdom preached to them, so they did have opportunity to believe, not only during the ministry of Christ Himself, but also during the forty years of the Acts period, when the twelve continued His ministry, in His Name.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

charity · Oct 14, 2021

@Kermos said in reply #2282:-

@Charity said:-
The works that He did, were obviously Divine miracles, and therefore should have testified to Who He was to anyone with eyes to see. No, 'He came unto His own, and His own received Him not. But as many as received Him, to them gave He power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on His name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.' (Joh 1:11-13)

Click to expand...

The Apostle John wrote "nor of the will of man" (John 1:13); therefore, John makes it clear that it is not a free will choice by man.

Hello @Kermos,

In the margin of my Bible in relation to those words in John 1:13, 'Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God,' I am told that the word, 'which' is 'who', referring to those who believe on His Name. However it also says that antecedent to any manuscripts eg., of Irenaeus (AD178), Tertullian (AD208), Augustine (AD395) and the other 'Fathers', the words were, 'Who was begotten'.(singular not plural). The 'hos' (= 'Who') agreeing with 'autou' (His name. Gr. 'onoma autou', 'name of Him'). Verse 14 goes on to speak of the incarnation of Him Who was not begotten by human generation. Tertullian says that 'believers' could not be intended in this verse, 'since all who believe are born of blood'. So the words, 'Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God', refers to Christ Himself and not those who would believe on His Name.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

charity · Oct 14, 2021

@Kermos said, in reply #2282:-

@Charity said:-↑
He came unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel, but only a remnant would believe. They were His sheep, for they heard His voice and followed Him. Paul explains in Romans why a remnant only were saved, but assured that believing remnant, that one day all Israel would be saved.

'For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery,
lest ye should be wise in your own conceits;
that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written,
'There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.'
As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes:
but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.'
(Rom 11:25-29)

Click to expand...

Paul wrote "they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel" (Romans 9:6).

In reference to unbelieving Israelites, Paul wrote "for if God did not spare the natural branches" (Romans 11:21).

"if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree" (Romans 11:17).

All of Israel will be saved from the wrath of God (Romans 11:26), and this Israel is made up of the persons whom God chooses to compose Israel (Romans 11:24). God grafts into Israel the persons whom God grafts into Israel; moreover this is not a function of the free will choice of man, rather this is the Power of God unto salvation (1 Corinthians 1:24, Romans 1:16).

Hello @Kermos,

God says what He means and means what He says. He says, 'All Israel shall be saved': Israel comprises the seed of Isaac; for God told Abraham, 'in Isaac shall thy seed be called'. (Genesis 21:12; Romans 9:7; Hebrews 11:8).

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

(Note: I have responded to your reply #2282. This is all I have time for at the moment. Replies #2283 and #2284 will have to be addressed at another time.}

Kermos · Oct 14, 2021

charity said:
* John 15:16: Here the Lord Jesus was talking to His disciples:-
'Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth:
but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of My Father I have made known unto you.
Ye have not chosen Me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you,
that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain:
that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in My name, He may give it you.'
(Joh 15:15)

* These were the twelve, chosen indeed by God the Father, through the Son.

* John 15:19:
'If the world hate you, ye know that it hated Me before it hated you.
If ye were of the world, the world would love his own:
but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world,
therefore the world hateth you.'
(Joh 15:18-19)

* These are the twelve, many who would go on to know martyrdom for His Name.

This is more about the recorded Word of God in John 15:16 and John 15:19 as mentioned in post #2283 which shows that you try to limit the audience to exclusively the apostles for supper covered in John chapters 14 to 17.

Lord Jesus says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation) to all His own disciples (John 10:27-29) in all time.

The First Nature's Illegitimate Claim - Free-willian's Claim To Superiority Over The Apostles

People who claim to be able to choose Jesus, despite those people being confronted by the Word of God "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) as well as "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19), with those people persisting in their claim of being able to choose Jesus thereafter, with those people claiming the Word of God applies only to the apostles, by extension those people claim to be superior to the apostles.

Peter said to Jesus, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God" And Jesus said to Peter, "Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal [this] to you, but My Father who is in heaven" (Matthew 16:16-17). The Apostle Peter did not do it himself for he is flesh and blood. God did it to Peter. People who claim to be able to choose Jesus by extension claim to be superior to the apostles.

In your heart, you claim to have facility that exceeds the apostles.

Related post 1: more disciples present at supper

charity · Oct 14, 2021

@Charity said:-
* John 15:16: Here the Lord Jesus was talking to His disciples:-
'Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth:
but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of My Father I have made known unto you.
Ye have not chosen Me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you,
that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain:
that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in My name, He may give it you.'
(Joh 15:15)

* These were the twelve, chosen indeed by God the Father, through the Son.

* John 15:19:
'If the world hate you, ye know that it hated Me before it hated you.
If ye were of the world, the world would love his own:
but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world,
therefore the world hateth you.'
(Joh 15:18-19)

* These are the twelve, many who would go on to know martyrdom for His Name.

@Kermos said in reply#2282:-
This is more about the recorded Word of God in John 15:16 and John 15:19 as mentioned in post #2283 which shows that you try to limit the audience to exclusively the apostles for supper covered in John chapters 14 to 17.

Lord Jesus says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation) to all His own disciples (John 10:27-29) in all time.

The First Nature's Illegitimate Claim - Free-willian's Claim To Superiority Over The Apostles

People who claim to be able to choose Jesus, despite those people being confronted by the Word of God "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) as well as "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19), with those people persisting in their claim of being able to choose Jesus thereafter, with those people claiming the Word of God applies only to the apostles, by extension those people claim to be superior to the apostles.

Peter said to Jesus, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God" And Jesus said to Peter, "Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal [this] to you, but My Father who is in heaven" (Matthew 16:16-17). The Apostle Peter did not do it himself for he is flesh and blood. God did it to Peter. People who claim to be able to choose Jesus by extension claim to be superior to the apostles.

In your heart, you claim to have facility that exceeds the apostles.

Related post 1: more disciples present at supper

Hello @Kermos,

You claim to know my heart!! Yet only the Lord Himself can know men's hearts, or make righteous judgments. I leave this subject to Him Who knows all, and bow to His authority. May His Word, rightly divided, be the Arbiter on this matter as all others.

* It would have been good to have responded to replies #2283 and #2284, but as you have already passed judgement upon me, I really do not see that anything can be achieved by doing so.

Within the love of Christ our Saviour,
our Lord and Head.
Chris

brightfame52 · Oct 14, 2021

Who are the All Christ shall draw to Him ?

Jn 12:32

32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

Who are the All Christ shall draw to Him ? Jesus makes a promise, not a offer, that if a certain condition occurs a certain effect will take place !

Now what is the Promised Effect here ? What is the condition stated for that effect to occur ? So then who are the All ? Its as simple as 2+2 , the All here are the ones drawn to Christ !

If Christ was lifted up for anyone, the evidence of that will be that that one shall be drawn to Christ, and will/shall follow Him !

The word draw here is the key, its the greek word helkó and means:

I drag, draw, pull, persuade, unsheathe

properly, induce (draw in), focusing on the attraction-power involved with the drawing.

metaphorically, to draw by inward power, lead, impel:

It also means in this scripture and Jn 6:44 :

I by my moral, my spiritual, influence will win over to myself the hearts of all,

Christ is promising to spiritually persuade them to follow Him. Also the word persuade has to do with Faith and or Believing, for instance, the common word for Faith as in Eph 2:8 is the greek word pistis and it means:

pístis (from 3982/peithô, "persuade, be persuaded") – properly, persuasion (be persuaded, come to trust); faith.

And again the word draw helkó means:

I drag, draw, pull, persuade, unsheathe

That coincides with the idea of :

I by my moral, my spiritual, influence will win or persuade over to myself the hearts of all

Jesus is promising to win over to Faith all for whom He is Lifted up for !

brightfame52 · Oct 15, 2021

Who are the All Christ shall draw to Him ?2

The word draw helkó also means to lead as in a Shepherd shall lead His Flock Isa 40:11

11 He shall feed his flock like a shepherd: he shall gather the lambs with his arm, and carry them in his bosom, and shall gently lead those that are with young.

The word lead nahal means:

to lead or guide to a watering place, bring to a place of rest, refresh

Remember the Promise Jesus makes to them that come to Him Matt 11:28

28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

And thats what drawing does, it causes them to come unto Him, and the drawing is the result of having been Lifted up on the Cross Jn 12:32

32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

Its the same as when Jesus said of His Sheep in Jn 10:3

3 To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.

The word Leadeth here exagó means to lead out, to lead forth or to bring forth , fetch out,

to lead by laying hold of, and in this way to bring to the point of destination

Jesus actually lays hold of His Lost Sheep in finding them, its like in the parable Lk 15:4-5

4 What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it?

5 And when he hath found it, he layeth it on his shoulders, rejoicing.

Notice what He does when He finds it, He layeth it on His shoulders rejoicing, now in order to do that, He must lay hold of it !

Its also like when Paul said of Christ to him Phil 3:12

12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

That word apprehended katalambanó means:

to lay hold of so as to make one's own, to obtain, attain to:

properly, take hold of exactly, with decisive initiative (eager self-interest); to grasp something in a forceful (firm) manner; (figuratively) to apprehend (comprehend), "making it one's own."

And this drawing by Christ Jn 12:32 corresponds with His bringing us to God 1 Pet 3:18

18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh or being lifted up, but quickened by the Spirit:

He died so that He might bring us to God !

All this denotes being cause to come, to approach God as when the Psalmest wrote Ps 65:4

4 Blessed is the man whom thou choosest, and causest to approach unto thee, that he may dwell in thy courts: we shall be satisfied with the goodness of thy house, even of thy holy temple.

This causing is the effect of Christ's drawing ! Thats who the All are in Jn 12:32, all that come to God in Christ as a result of Christ being lifted up for them on the Cross !

brightfame52 · Oct 16, 2021

The all for whom Christ was given to be a ransom for !

1 Tim 2:6

6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Also Matt 20:28

28 Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

The all for whom He was a ransom for was not all mankind without exception, for scripture never says that or means that, not even close, but its meaning is, all of the Many as indicated in Matt 20:28.

Before we proceed lets look at the word FOR in both of these scriptures about Christ giving Himself a Ransom .

In 1 Tim 2:6 the word for is the greek huper and means:

in behalf of; acc: above.

properly, beyond (above); (figuratively) to extend benefit (help) that reaches beyond the present situation.

Those He gave Himself for receive benefit from it, help

is usually best translated "for the betterment (advantage) of," i.e. focusing on benefit. M. Vincent, "5228 (hypér) signifies something like 'in the interests of the truth . . . concerning.' J. B. Lightfoot (on Gal 1:4) . . . remarks that hypér has 'a sense of interest in,' which is wanting to peri" (WS).

(hypér) naturally expresses conferring benefit, i.e. for the sake of "betterment" (improvement,

This is key, the extending of the help or benefit is not just making it available, but the help and benefit is conferred upon them all.

The word confer actually means To bestow

So these all whom He gave Himself a ransom for, receive a bestowed benefit from it, and of course its a spiritual benefit for their betterment and improvement !

These words denote:

a change for the better; improvement

One of the benefits is that it sets them free ! Its what Jesus had in Mind when He said this Jn 8:36

If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

This comes about as an result of the Son giving Himself a Ransom for all whom He gave Himself for !

charity · Oct 16, 2021

Q) Did Christ die for all men without exception?

'I am come a light into the world,
that whosoever believeth on Me should not abide in darkness.
And if any man hear My words, and believe not, I judge Him not:
for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
He that rejecteth Me, and receiveth not My words, hath one that judgeth him:
the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge Him in the last day.'
(Joh 12:46)

'And it shall come to pass,
that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord
shall be saved.'
(Act 2:21)

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Tong2020 · Oct 16, 2021

charity said:
Q) Did Christ die for all men without exception?

'I am come a light into the world,
that whosoever believeth on Me should not abide in darkness.
And if any man hear My words, and believe not, I judge Him not:
for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
He that rejecteth Me, and receiveth not My words, hath one that judgeth him:
the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge Him in the last day.'
(Joh 12:46)

'And it shall come to pass,
that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord
shall be saved.'
(Act 2:21)

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Who calls on the Lord, but the believer?

Tong
R4731

charity · Oct 16, 2021

Tong2020 said:
Who calls on the Lord, but the believer?

Tong
R4731

Hello @Tong2020,

Yes, it is the believer who calls on the Lord, but the invitation is open to all.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Tong2020 · Oct 16, 2021

charity said:
Hello @Tong2020,

Yes, it is the believer who calls on the Lord, but the invitation is open to all.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Hi Chris,

May I know, what is your take on the following:

1 Corinthians 2:14
But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them,because they are spiritually discerned.

What can you say of the natural man? Who is the natural man?

Tong
R4732

CadyandZoe · Oct 16, 2021

brightfame52 said:
The all for whom He was a ransom for was not all mankind without exception, for scripture never says that or means that, not even close, but its meaning is, all of the Many as indicated in Matt 20:28.

Again, you are confusing "meaning" with "significance."

Suppose a teacher reminds her students that the term paper is due on Friday. This general statement applies to the entire class without exception. She means to say that everyone must have turned in a term paper by Friday. Then suppose some of the students have already turned in a term paper. The significance of her statement, then, depends on the student. If the student has already turned in a term paper, the reminder is of little importance. But if the student has not turned in a paper, the reminder is meaningful and important.

1 Timothy 2:5-6
For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time.

Paul tells Timothy that Jesus gave himself as a ransom for all. He means this as a general statement concerning the large, overarching truth that no one is excluded from the ransom payment. No category of human being will be excluded or denied. As John puts it in Revelation 7 "Look! a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes . . ." Revelation 7:9 What Paul means to say is that Jesus Christ gave himself as a ransom for all: individuals from every nation, tribe, peoples, and tongues.

What is the significance of Paul's statement then? In the larger context, Paul is asking Timothy and his flock "that entreaties and prayers, petitions and thanksgivings, be made on behalf of all men, for kings and all who are in authority, so that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and dignity." Here, once again, Paul means to be inclusive. No category of human being should be left off of the list of those for whom you pray. This includes "kings and all who are in authority". We should pray for these men also. Why? Because Christ gave himself as a ransom for them also.

Your exclusionary interpretation undercuts Paul's point. If we were to take your view to its logical conclusion, Timothy and his flock might be right to say, "Paul didn't intend for us to pray for Nero. Christ didn't die for him did he?

charity · Oct 16, 2021

Tong2020 said:
Hi Chris,

May I know, what is your take on the following:

1 Corinthians 2:14
But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them,because they are spiritually discerned.

What can you say of the natural man? Who is the natural man?

Tong
R4732

'Now we have received,
.. not the spirit of the world,
.... but the spirit which is of God;
...... that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
Which things also we speak,
.. not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth,
.... but which the Holy Ghost teacheth;
...... comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God:
.. for they are foolishness unto him:
.... neither can he know them,
...... because they are spiritually discerned.'
(1 Cor. 2:12-14)

Hello @Tong2020,

You ask for my 'take' on 1 Corinthians 2:14: presumably you ask with the subject heading of this thread in mind, yes?

With the question, 'Did Christ die for all men without exception?'

The spirit which is of God is something that the believer on the Lord Jesus Christ receives. It is not something that he is born with naturally. Also the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. This requires enlightenment, which the believer on the Lord Jesus Christ receives, the spirit which is of God in Christ Jesus.

What are the things of the Spirit of God which are being spoken of in 1 Corinthians 2:12-14? They are, 'the things that are freely given to us of God,' in Christ Jesus: they are things which accompany salvation. This is not the gospel message. The testimony of God concerning the Lord Jesus Christ is plainly spoken in Scripture and is within the ability of all who hear it to either receive or reject.

'The entrance of Thy words giveth light;
it giveth understanding unto the simple.'
(Psa 119:130)

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Kermos · Oct 16, 2021

charity said:
* John 15:16: Here the Lord Jesus was talking to His disciples:-
'Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth:
but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of My Father I have made known unto you.
Ye have not chosen Me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you,
that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain:
that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in My name, He may give it you.'
(Joh 15:15)

* These were the twelve, chosen indeed by God the Father, through the Son.

* John 15:19:
'If the world hate you, ye know that it hated Me before it hated you.
If ye were of the world, the world would love his own:
but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world,
therefore the world hateth you.'
(Joh 15:18-19)

* These are the twelve, many who would go on to know martyrdom for His Name.

This is more about the recorded Word of God in John 15:16 and John 15:19 as mentioned in post #2283 which shows that you try to limit the audience to exclusively the apostles for the supper covered in John chapters 14 to 17.

Lord Jesus says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation) to all His own disciples (John 10:27-29) in all time.

Friend Of Jesus (John 15:15) Relation To Exclusive Choice By Jesus (John 15:16)

Lord Jesus immediately adjacently joins being chosen by God as friends of Friend Jesus (John 15:15-16).

"I have called you friends, for all things that I have heard from My Father I have made known to you. You did not choose Me but I chose you" (John 15:15-16) says Lord Jesus.

A friend of Jesus does not choose Jesus, but Jesus does choose the friend of Jesus (John 15:15-16), and a friend of Jesus does what Jesus commands (John 15:14) by the appointment of Jesus (John 15:16) thus being a friend of Jesus by the Christ's choosing (John 15:14-16).

FREE-WILLIANS DISAVOW CHRIST'S WORDS OF "YOU DID NOT CHOOSE ME" (JOHN 15:16) FOR THEMSELVES WHILE AT THE SAME TIME DECLARING THE WORDS AS EXCLUSIVELY APPLICABLE TO THE APOSTLES; THEREFORE, FREE-WILLIANS DENY BEING A FRIEND OF JESUS WHICH JESUS COVERS IN THE SAME SAYINGS OF JESUS.

A friend of Jesus marvels at the glorious exclusive work of God's salvation of man; on the other hand, an enemy of Jesus steals the exclusive glory of man's salvation from God by saying things like "I chose Jesus" or "I accepted Jesus" resulting in the following implications to free will philosophy:

the enemy of Jesus rejects Jesus* Who says Who He is, and Jesus declares Himself Sovereign, the exclusive Controller, in man's salvation.
the enemy of Jesus does not receive the sayings of Jesus* for the enemy disavows Jesus' sayings about God's exclusive choosing of man (John 15:16, John 15:19).
the enemy of Jesus thinks the enemy compels God to provide salvation (i.e. God must obey man's command for salvation, and also without a man's affirming decision there is no salvation for the man).
the enemy of Jesus gets the glory, yet God does not give His glory to another (Isaiah 42:8).

* "He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day" (John 12:48)

In their hearts self-willed persons (2 Peter 2:9-10) effectively remove themselves from being friends of Jesus.

By the Power of God, for God's glory (Isaiah 42:8), the friend of Jesus bears good fruit/works because apart from Jesus a person can do nothing (John 15:5).

By the Power of God, by God's grace, for God's glory (Isaiah 42:8), the friend of Jesus is saved from the wrath of God for Jesus, Lord and God (John 20:28), says "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19).

Related post 1: more disciples present at supper

Related post 2: Free-willian's Claim To Superiority Over The Apostles

The Myth of saying that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception !

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