The Myth of saying that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception !

charity said:

* John 15:16: Here the Lord Jesus was talking to His disciples:-
'Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth:
but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of My Father I have made known unto you.
Ye have not chosen Me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you,
that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain:
that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in My name, He may give it you.'
(Joh 15:15)

* These were the twelve, chosen indeed by God the Father, through the Son.

* John 15:19:
'If the world hate you, ye know that it hated Me before it hated you.
If ye were of the world, the world would love his own:
but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world,
therefore the world hateth you.'
(Joh 15:18-19)

* These are the twelve, many who would go on to know martyrdom for His Name.

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This is more about the recorded Word of God in John 15:16 and John 15:19 as mentioned in post #2283 which shows that you try to limit the audience to exclusively the apostles for the supper covered in John chapters 14 to 17.

Lord Jesus says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation) to all His own disciples (John 10:27-29) in all time.

JOHN'S WRITINGS FOR US BELIEVERS

The Apostle John wrote "these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name" (John 20:31).

Among the writings of John includes the statements of Jesus "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19). These sayings of Jesus Christ, Lord and God (John 20:28), are part and parcel of the exclusive attribute of Jesus with respect to choice in the salvation of all His sheep in all time.


John's writings are for us believers to believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing we have life in His Name; therefore, belief in Jesus about whom John wrote includes the exclusive centrality of choice reserved to Jesus by Jesus through Jesus in the salvation of all His sheep in all time.


Lord Jesus says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation) to all His own disciples (John 10:27-29) in all time.

Related post 1: more disciples present at supper

Related post 2: Free-willian's Claim To Superiority Over The Apostles

Related post 3: The Friend Of Jesus (John 15:15) Is Exclusively Chosen By Jesus (John 15:16)

Related post 4: Lord Jesus says "what I say to you I say to all" believers in Jesus Mark 13:37)

Related post 5: Lord Jesus Prophesies And Declares The Holy Spirit Indwelling Believers In Jesus Thus "You" In John 14-17 Includes All Believers In Jesus In All Time
Related post 6: Lord Jesus' prayer for us believers

Related post 7: Lord Jesus indicates during the supper that more than the 12 apostles were at the supper

'And many other signs truly did Jesus
in the presence of His disciples,
which are not written in this book:
.. But these are written,
.... that ye might believe
...... that Jesus is the Christ,
........ the Son of God;
.......... and that believing
............ ye might have life through His name.'
(John 20:30-31)

Praise God!

Kermos said:

Hello @CadyandZoe,

When you wrote "the purpose of the cross was not the expiation of sins" (your writing quoted in post #2436), then you disavow and reject that Christ suffered on the cross wiping away your sins thus you retain your sins upon yourself - you contradict/deny Peter's words recorded in Acts 3:18-19.

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I disagree. In order to understand the Biblical point of view, one must first understand the difference between "expiation", which is an act of reparation for guilt, and "taking away sins", which is a different thing entirely. Contrary to folk Christianity, which teaches that God punished his son for our sins rather than us; the New Testament teaches that God forgives our sins. And as Paul the apostle tells us, God was overlooking our sins when Jesus was on the cross.

Both the Catholics and the Protestants got it wrong. Consider the following passage from Romans 3:

Romans 3:24-26
. . . being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed; for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

Christian culture currently teaches that God was punishing Jesus on the cross as a recompense for the sins of many; whereas Paul, as shown above, says that while Jesus was on the cross God was passing over our sins. God was not accepting the blood of Jesus as payment, recompense or the means to extinguish our guilt. God wasn't absolving people of guilt; he was ignoring it. As Paul says, justification is a gift of grace. If Christ was being punished in our place, our sins were discharged, not passed over, and justification would be a matter of merit, not grace.

Paul tells you the reason why Jesus volunteered to suffer the death penalty, which wasn't the expiation of sin. Jesus was on the cross to allow the Father "to demonstrate his righteousness" during a time of forbearance. And if Jesus' death on the cross paid for our sins, then the time of forbearance is over. But it isn't over. The time of forbearance continues. Romans 2:4

Both Peter and John tell us that Jesus was the lamb that came to take away the sins of the world. Jesus not only forgives sins, he takes them away entirely. What does it mean to take the sins away? First of all, taking the sins away means that our sins will no longer be remembered. Ezekiel 18:21-23 Hebrews 8:12 This is represented symbolically in the book of Revelation as believers wearing white robes. Secondly, not only does Jesus forgive sins, he has made it possible for God to totally remove sin from our life experience. One day we will be freed from this body of death. Romans 7:24-25

The Apostle Paul wrote "you have been bought with a price" (1 Corinthians 6:20) about us disciples, so Christ bought us disciples by His redemptive work on the cross for us disciples with His precious Blood.

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We discussed this. I had no idea that you didn't understand the concept of ransom and redemption.

Paul's point depends on the customary way that prisoners and slaves were given freedom. In order to gain freedom for the prisoner or slave, one pays a ransom payment to the jailer or the slave owner. Once the payment is made, the prisoner or slave is set free. Jesus came to set the prisoners free. Isaiah 61:1, Luke 4:18 How does he set them free? First, he gives sight to the blind.

And what imprisons them? Sin. John 8:34 The purchase price was to free us from sin. Romans 6:6 Ransom = freedom.

CadyandZoe said:

What you say doesn't make any sense to me. There are three parties here: 1) the victim, 2) relative of the victim, and 3) the ox owner. The supposition is that the ox owner's ox gored the victim. After a trial judge decides the guilt of the ox owner, the victim's relative decides the sentence: either 1) death penalty, or 2) ransom. If the relative decides to accept ransom, then the ox owner pays the ransom to the relative. Once the ox owner pays the ransom, he is free to go about his life. Ransom = freedom.

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Respecting definitions, what significance manifests in the phrase "the redemption of his life" (Exodus 21:30)?

An answer is that "redemption" has a relationship with "his life", and the relationship is ownership.

With the ox owner being guilty, then who has ownership of the ox owner's life?

An answer is "not the ox owner" because the ox owner's life is forfeit unto death (Exodus 21:29).

Next, how can the ox owner recover ownership of his life from forfeiture unto death?

The answer is "by remitting the payment demand" because this redeems the ox owner's ownership of the ox owner's life (Exodus 21:30).

Now, let's look at some definitions.

"Ransom" is defined as "demand for payment to recover ownership".

"Redemption" is defined as "payment for recovery of unencumbered ownership".

It is written:

If a ransom is demanded of him, then he shall give for the redemption of his life whatever is demanded of him.
(Exodus 21:30)

Next, replacing "ransom" and "redemption" with their definitions in Exodus 21:30.

If a "demand for payment to recover ownership" is demanded of him, then he shall give for the "payment for recovery of unencumbered ownership" of his life whatever is demanded of him.
(Exodus 21:30 with word/definition replacement)

Ownership of "his life" in Exodus 21:30 is explicitly within the passage because the definition of "ransom" and "redemption" includes a component related to "ownership".

THE DEFINITION OF "RANSOM" AND "REDEMPTION" ARE EXPOSED IN EXODUS 21:29-31.

When you wrote "Ransom = freedom", then you lied because:

• "freedom" is defined as "unhindered liberty".
• "freedom" is not defined as "ransom".

The word "freedom" does not appear in Exodus 21:29-31, so you add the word "freedom" into scripture where the word "freedom" does not exist.

It is written "do not add to His words or He will reprove you, and you will be proved a liar" (Proverbs 30:6), and the above explanation of your thoughts shows where you added to scripture.

Still, you see (perceive) it dead wrong.

CadyandZoe said:

No. You have it backwards. God already obligated the first born sons of Israel to serve him. The shekels were paid to FREE the first born of his obligation to serve God.

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You do not understand.

God requires God to have ownership of the life of the firstborn as recorded in (Exodus 13:2), so God owns the firstborn the moment they were born.

God provided a means of redemption for "the 273 of the firstborn of the sons of Israel who are in excess beyond the Levites" (Numbers 3:46) to buy ownership of their lives.

THE DEFINITION OF "RANSOM" AND "REDEMPTION" ARE EXPOSED IN EXODUS 21:29-31, SO THESE DEFINITIONS APPLY TO NUMBERS 3:44-51.

The ransom payment amount of "five shekels apiece" (Numbers 3:47) is the established redemption value for the firstborn to gain ownership of the firstborn's lives.

Moses, "from the firstborn of the sons of Israel he took the money" (Numbers 3:50), so the 273 firstborn redeemed themselves.

Ownership of the firstborn's lives does not cease to exist, like in your "free" thing, when the ransom is paid, but rather "ownership" of the firstborn's lives transfers from God to the firstborn.

The word "free" does not appear in Numbers 3:44-51, so you add the word "free" into scripture where the word "free" does not exist.

It is written "do not add to His words or He will reprove you, and you will be proved a liar" (Proverbs 30:6), and the above explanation of your thoughts shows where you added to scripture.

charity said:

'And many other signs truly did Jesus
in the presence of His disciples,
which are not written in this book:
.. But these are written,
.... that ye might believe
...... that Jesus is the Christ,
........ the Son of God;
.......... and that believing
............ ye might have life through His name.'
(John 20:30-31)

Praise God!

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You, @charity, cannot control belief in Jesus because the Word of God says "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29).

So "that you believe in Him whom He has sent" is absolutely "the work of God", not man, but truly believing on Jesus is "the work of God".

"By grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His work, created in Christ Jesus" (Ephesians 2:8-10) wrote the Apostle Paul, so Paul is in accord with the Lord (John 6:29).

So "faith"/belief is absolutely "not of yourselves" moreover "saved"/salvation is "not as a result of works" of a choice by man yet truly "we are His work, created in Christ Jesus".

Unrighteous belief, that is, a person claiming to control the person's belief in the Son, is the act of man unto damnation. Such a person denies the Word of God.

Righteous belief, that is, God controlling a person to believe in the Son whom the Father has sent, is the exclusive act of God in man unto Salvation.

Salvation is reserved by God to persons whom God chooses to cause to believe on Lord Jesus Christ.

To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and forever. Amen. (Jude 1:25)

Kermos said:

Respecting definitions, what significance manifests in the phrase "the redemption of his life" (Exodus 21:30)?

An answer is that "redemption" has a relationship with "his life", and the relationship is ownership.

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Negative. Ransom is paid to free someone.

With the ox owner being guilty, then who has ownership of the ox owner's life?

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It isn't about ownership. The topic of the passage is justice.
You are reading definitions INTO a passage, not deriving them FROM the passage.

@Kermos
@brightfame52
* or to any other to whom it may concern.

Hello there,

If I have not responded to your posts, I apologise to you, but it is because to argue about these matters is futile.

I have no doubt that my salvation was a work of God, and I praise Him for it. However that does not take away from the fact that He died for all men. All men have not received salvation, not because God ordained that they should not, but because they either have not believed the gospel of salvation that they have heard, or because they have not yet heard, therefore have not had opportunity.

Many verses, as has been proved by this thread, can be quoted to seemingly substantiate the claims of both sides of the discussion, but both sides have elements of truth in them. For God has foreknowledge and thereby can pre-destine those who believe for different purposes, eg., that those who believe on His Son, the Lord Jesus Christ, may be conformed to His image.(Romans 8:29-30): but that does not negate the fact that Christ died for all men without exception.

Those who hear His voice will respond with faith: those who do not hear His voice will not respond with faith; yet the truth concerning God's existence, and His eternal power and Godhead have been witnessed throughout the generations in the works of creation by all men. Yet not all have seen, not all have heard with faith. You could say that this is because those who hear and those who see, are His sheep: but that does not deny the fact that the evidences were visible to all, as the gospel message is also, since the death and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ, potentially seen and heard by all.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

charity said:

@Kermos
@brightfame52
* or to any other to whom it may concern.

Hello there,

If I have not responded to your posts, I apologise to you, but it is because to argue about these matters is futile.

I have no doubt that my salvation was a work of God, and I praise Him for it. However that does not take away from the fact that He died for all men. All men have not received salvation, not because God ordained that they should not, but because they either have not believed the gospel of salvation that they have heard, or because they have not yet heard, therefore have not had opportunity.

Many verses, as has been proved by this thread, can be quoted to seemingly substantiate the claims of both sides of the discussion, but both sides have elements of truth in them. For God has foreknowledge and thereby can pre-destine those who believe for different purposes, eg., that those who believe on His Son, the Lord Jesus Christ, may be conformed to His image.(Romans 8:29-30): but that does not negate the fact that Christ died for all men without exception.

Those who hear His voice will respond with faith: those who do not hear His voice will not respond with faith; yet the truth concerning God's existence, and His eternal power and Godhead have been witnessed throughout the generations in the works of creation by all men. Yet not all have seen, not all have heard with faith. You could say that this is because those who hear and those who see, are His sheep: but that does not deny the fact that the evidences were visible to all, as the gospel message is also, since the death and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ, potentially seen and heard by all.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

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Yes it is futile. Calvinism is a religion in itself. Even the Angels had the ability to reject God. Calvinists have out of necessity built false doctrine upon doctrine. In a sense, they limit God's abilities. God did foreknow what our choices would be but he is God enough to let us decide. God didn't predestine rapists, murderers, and evil. God did predestine that upon salvation we would join the body of Christ. They insist that God predestined all actions of men, men have no choice, men are pre-programmed. If that is so, I was predestined to disagree with them and to counter their view.

brightfame52 said:

The Name Jesus is linked to Limited Atonement !

Even the Name Jesus speaks to a Limited Atonement for a special particular people, we read here Matt 1:21

21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.

Jesus shall save His People or His Sheep or His Wife from their sins !

The Name of Jesus is associated with limited atonement. Peter preached Acts 13:23

23 Of this man's seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus:

Hes only in the Purpose of God a raised Saviour unto Israel, which is a Elect People !

A elect people is meant here Rom 3:26

To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

Those who shall believe in Jesus is His People He came to save Matt 1:21 !

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Those who close their Bibles after Acts 2:38 miss some important changes. Changes that Peter himself came to understand. Beyond Acts 2 in Acts 10 Peter has the experience with Cornelius and his understanding of the necessity of water baptism to receive the Holy Spirit was changed. Beyond Acts in Galatians we see the counsel in Jerusalem when Paul and Peter are discussing Cornelius and his Peters experience and how they should or should not yoke the Gentiles with matters of the law. The bottom line is things changed. One must move beyond the Gospel message to the Jews before the Apostles understood the message of Grace alone.

CadyandZoe said:

I disagree. In order to understand the Biblical point of view, one must first understand the difference between "expiation", which is an act of reparation for guilt, and "taking away sins", which is a different thing entirely. Contrary to folk Christianity, which teaches that God punished his son for our sins rather than us; the New Testament teaches that God forgives our sins.

Click to expand...

It is written "YHWH was pleased to crush Him, putting Him to grief; If He would render Himself as a guilt offering, He will see His offspring, He will prolong His days, and the good pleasure of YHWH will prosper in His hand" (Isaiah 53:10).

It is written "The next day he saw Jesus coming to him and said, 'Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world'" (John 1:29).

It is written "the things which God announced beforehand by the mouth of all the prophets, that His Christ would suffer, He has thus fulfilled repent therefore and overturn to the wiping away of your sins" (Acts 3:18-19).

As shown in these passages:

1) God made reparation for guilt.

2) God takes away sins.

3) God punished Jesus the Son for the sins of man - Christ is the Lamb of God sacrificed fof God's chosen persons.

Since you excluded yourself from "God takes away sins", then your self-admittedly retained sin is the unrighteousness of you. Unrighteous persons will not inherit the Kingdom of God (1 Corinthians 6:9-10).

CadyandZoe said:

And as Paul the apostle tells us, God was overlooking our sins when Jesus was on the cross.

Both the Catholics and the Protestants got it wrong. Consider the following passage from Romans 3:

Romans 3:24-26
. . . being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed; for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

Christian culture currently teaches that God was punishing Jesus on the cross as a recompense for the sins of many; whereas Paul, as shown above, says that while Jesus was on the cross God was passing over our sins.

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"Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God" (Romans 3:25).

The phrase "passed over" (from the version you quoted) and "remission" (in the KJV) are translated from the Greek word "πάρεσιν
" (paresin, Strong's #3929, a letting go) which as biblehub.com/greek/3929.htm shows the definition as:

THE PHRASE "PASSED OVER" MEANS "LET-GO-FROM-CLOSE-BESIDE", "RELEASE OF ATTACHED", AND "REMISSION" BECAUSE THESE ARE ALL BASED ON PAUL'S USE OF THE WORD πάρεσιν.

A caveat is that πάρεσιν is a noun which means that "remission" is the most accurate since "passed over" is verb phrase.

Truly, the context is that God "wiped away" the sins of men with the precious Blood of the Son of God at the cross in Romans 3:24-26.

Conclusively, the Apostle Paul's writing in Romans 3:24-26 matches the Apostle Peter's words of "the things which God announced beforehand by the mouth of all the prophets, that His Christ would suffer, He has thus fulfilled repent therefore and overturn to the wiping away of your sins" (Acts 3:18-19).

@CadyandZoe, this means your writing of "while Jesus was on the cross God was passing over our sins" is not only deceptively misleading, but when combined with your hearts treasure that "God was not accepting the blood of Jesus as payment" exposes your sin of opposition against the righteousness of God to pay for release of slaves of sin (John 8:34) into becoming slaves of righteousness (Romans 6:18).

CadyandZoe said:

God was not accepting the blood of Jesus as payment, recompense or the means to extinguish our guilt. God wasn't absolving people of guilt; he was ignoring it.

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"you have been bought with a price" (1 Corinthians 6:20).

"without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins" (Hebrews 9:22).

"He entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of His own Blood, thus securing an eternal redemption" (Hebrews 9:12).

"as it is, He has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself" (Hebrews 9:26).

"To Him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by His Blood" (Revelation 1:5).

"He Himself bore our sins in His body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By His wounds you have been healed" (1 Peter 2:24).

"Christ loved us and gave Himself up for us, a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God" (Ephesians 5:2).

"Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world" (John 1:29).

"This cup which is poured out for you is the new covenant in My blood" (Luke 22:20).

"The Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life as a ransom for many" (Matthew 20:28).

"Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends. You are My friends if you do what I command you" (John 15:13-14).

"When Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, 'It is finished!' And He bowed His head and gave up His spirit" (John 19:30).

"I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep" (John 10:11).

"I am the good shepherd, and I know My own and My own know Me" (John 10:14).

"My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand" (John 10:27-28).

When you wrote "God was not accepting the blood of Jesus as payment", then you deceive.

The Apostle Paul tells the truth, but you tell lies.

The Apostle John tells the truth, but you tell lies.

The Apostle Peter tells the truth, but you tell lies.

John the Baptist tells the truth, but you tell lies.

The Lord Jesus tells the truth, but you tell lies.

CadyandZoe said:

As Paul says, justification is a gift of grace. If Christ was being punished in our place, our sins were discharged, not passed over, and justification would be a matter of merit, not grace.

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The discharge of sin is by the merit of Christ - not by man's merit - but truly justification is by Christ's merit (Titus 3:5).

The discharge of sin is by the grace of Christ - not by man's grace - but truly justification is by Christ's grace (Ephesians 2:8-10).

Your thoughts that you just wrote are the precepts of men that leads to worship in vain (Matthew 15:9).

continued to post #2475

continued from post #2474

CadyandZoe said:

Paul tells you the reason why Jesus volunteered to suffer the death penalty, which wasn't the expiation of sin. Jesus was on the cross to allow the Father "to demonstrate his righteousness" during a time of forbearance.

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"this is His name by which He will be called, 'YHWH our righteousness.'" (Jeremiah 23:6).

"They will say of Me, ‘Only in YHWH are righteousness and strength.’" (Isaiah 45:24).

GOD IS RIGHTEOUSNESS.

"by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption" (1 Corinthians 1:30).

"He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him" (2 Corinthians 5:21).

CHRIST IS THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF GOD.

"As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up" (John 3:14)

"I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself" (John 12:32)

THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF GOD WAS PUBLICLY LIFTED UP.

"Christ Jesus whom God displayed publicly" (Romans 3:24-25).

"to demonstrate His righteousness" (Romans 3:25)

The word "demonstrate" comes from ἔνδειξιν (Strong's #1732, a pointing out or indication, a proof, biblehub.com/greek/1732.htm).

ACCORDING TO PAUL IN ROMANS 3:25, GOD DISPLAYED CHRIST PUBLICLY TO PROVE THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF GOD, BEING CHRIST.

God proved that Christ takes away the sin of the world.

You reject Christ wipes away your sin, so you remain a slave of sin (John 8:34, John 8:44).

All disciples of Christ are slaves of righteousness (Romans 6:18).

In effect, much of your writing indicates that you despise the Righteousness of God, and the Righteousness of God is the Master of us slaves of Righteousness, yet you explicitly exclude yourself from the domain of the slaves of Righteousness.

CadyandZoe said:

And if Jesus' death on the cross paid for our sins, then the time of forbearance is over. But it isn't over. The time of forbearance continues. Romans 2:4

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Paul's writing of "do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance" (Romans 2:4) does not equate to your writing of "if Jesus' death on the cross paid for our sins, then the time of forbearance is over".

In fact, nothing in the Bible substantiates your writing, so that makes your writing not the Word of God.

Truly, the Word of God paid for the sins of the children of God thus His patience (forbearance) extends "until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled" (Luke 21:24).

CadyandZoe said:

Both Peter and John tell us that Jesus was the lamb that came to take away the sins of the world. Jesus not only forgives sins, he takes them away entirely.

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You have repeatedly said that Jesus does not take away sins.

Over and over you emphatically conveyed that Christ does not wipe away sins such as earlier in your self-same post with "God wasn't absolving people of guilt".

Your doctrine holds that two mutually exclusive things are true simultaneously.

By definition logically and linguistically, two mutually exclusive premises can not be true simultaneously.

Your doctrine, the thoughts of your heart, our confusion; on the other hand, "God is not a God of confusion but of peace" (1 Corinthians 14:33).

Notice the contra-juxtaposition of peace against confusion/war.

You go around saying peace, peace, but there is no peace (Jeremiah 6:14) for you currently with the Lord Jesus based on the treasure of your heart (Matthew 15:18).

Since you are not at peace with the Word of God, then you are at war with the Lord (Matthew 12:30).

CadyandZoe said:

What does it mean to take the sins away? First of all, taking the sins away means that our sins will no longer be remembered. Ezekiel 18:21-23 Hebrews 8:12 This is represented symbolically in the book of Revelation as believers wearing white robes. Secondly, not only does Jesus forgive sins, he has made it possible for God to totally remove sin from our life experience. One day we will be freed from this body of death. Romans 7:24-25

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The phrase "take away the sin" means exactly "the sin is separated from the person".

The phrase "take away the sin" means not "God leaves sin in a person yet God ignores sin in a person while God removes sin from a person".

Your writing cumulatively arrives at "God leaves sin in a person yet God ignores sin in a person while God removes sin from a person".

You are so very confused!

Truly, God forgives sin, and God takes away sin.

CadyandZoe said:

We discussed this. I had no idea that you didn't understand the concept of ransom and redemption.

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You failed to understand the meaning of "ransom" and "redemption", so God caused me to present Exodus 21:29-31 to show you that God conveys the definition of these words in the Holy Writ, and here are the definitions:

"Ransom" is defined as "demand for payment to recover ownership".

"Redemption" is defined as "payment for recovery of unencumbered ownership".

A redeemer is the same thing as a purchaser.

Lord Christ redeems us disciples; therefore; the Christ bought the ownership of us disciples.

Since you deny that Christ is Purchaser/Redeemer, then you remain in your sin (John 8:24).

CadyandZoe said:

Paul's point depends on the customary way that prisoners and slaves were given freedom. In order to gain freedom for the prisoner or slave, one pays a ransom payment to the jailer or the slave owner. Once the payment is made, the prisoner or slave is set free.

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First, bail is posted for release of a prisoner, not a ransom. Since you are so very confused about "slave of sin" and "slave of righteousness", then I'll just drop the "prisoner" point here.

Second, considering a slave-trader selling a slave to a non-slave-trader, when the non-slave-trader redeems (pays for/buys/purchases/makes payment for) the slave, then ownership of the slave transfers from the slave-trader to the non-slave-trader.

CadyandZoe said:

Jesus came to set the prisoners free. Isaiah 61:1, Luke 4:18 How does he set them free? First, he gives sight to the blind.

And what imprisons them? Sin. John 8:34 The purchase price was to free us from sin. Romans 6:6 Ransom = freedom.

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See, you don't understand "ransom" because the definition of "ransom" does not equal "freedom" as has been previously presented to you, yet you practice the lawlessness of illegal word redefinition with "Ransom = freedom" (Matthew 7:23)

When you wrote "Ransom = freedom", then you lied because:

• "freedom" is defined as "unhindered liberty".
• "ransom" is defined as "demand for payment to recover ownership".
• "freedom" is not defined as "ransom".

"The Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many" says Lord Jesus Christ (Matthew 20:28).

Christ's Blood shed on the cross is payment for the ransom that leads to Christ's disciples being bought unto slaves of Righteousness; moreover, the payment for the ransom is redemption of Christ's disciples.

We slaves of Righteousness are set free from the punishment for sin.

When you wrote "Jesus didn't buy disciples", then, in effect, @CadyandZoe, you excluded yourself from the ransom that Jesus paid!

TEXBOW said:

Yes it is futile. Calvinism is a religion in itself. Even the Angels had the ability to reject God. Calvinists have out of necessity built false doctrine upon doctrine. In a sense, they limit God's abilities. God did foreknow what our choices would be but he is God enough to let us decide. God didn't predestine rapists, murderers, and evil. God did predestine that upon salvation we would join the body of Christ. They insist that God predestined all actions of men, men have no choice, men are pre-programmed. If that is so, I was predestined to disagree with them and to counter their view.

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Jesus is Christ in us Christians.

Christ is the Word of God.

As a Christian, by God's grace, I proclaim Christ's Holy Sayings to you, TEXBOW.

The Word of God says there is no level that a person can choose Lord Jesus because He says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) as well as "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation) - Jesus, being God, did not provide any exception for choosing toward Jesus. Lord Jesus speaks to all believers in all time because He also said "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20)! All these words of Jesus are at the same supper! All glory is God's! With man, salvation is impossible (Matthew 19:25-26)! All glory in the salvation of man is God's (John 15:5, Isaiah 42:8, Psalm 3:8)!

This post contains additional scriptural proof that when Lord Jesus says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation), then He says it to all His own disciples (John 10:27-29) in all time.

charity said:

* John 15:16: Here the Lord Jesus was talking to His disciples:-
'Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth:
but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of My Father I have made known unto you.
Ye have not chosen Me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you,
that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain:
that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in My name, He may give it you.'
(Joh 15:15)

* These were the twelve, chosen indeed by God the Father, through the Son.

* John 15:19:
'If the world hate you, ye know that it hated Me before it hated you.
If ye were of the world, the world would love his own:
but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world,
therefore the world hateth you.'
(Joh 15:18-19)

* These are the twelve, many who would go on to know martyrdom for His Name.

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This is more about the recorded Word of God in John 15:16 and John 15:19 as mentioned in post #2283 which shows that you try to limit the audience to exclusively the apostles for the supper covered in John chapters 14 to 17.

COMMUNION, THE SHARE OF CHRIST BY CHRIST AND THROUGH CHRIST, THE BLESSED GIFT PROVIDED TO HIS OWN PEOPLE

Written of Jesus Christ is "And when He had taken [some] bread [and] given thanks, He broke it and gave it to them, saying, 'This is My body which is given for you; do this in remembrance of Me'" (Luke 22:19).

This event where Lord Jesus says "This is My body which is given for you; do this in remembrance of Me" (Luke 22:19) is during the self-same supper encounter described by the Apostle John in the Gospel of John chapters 13 - 17

Jesus says "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in yourselves" (John 6:53). Thus, Life requires eating the flesh and drinking the blood of Lord Jesus Christ. We know that the Corinthians did this after Jesus' ascension because the Apostle Paul wrote to the assembly at Corinth about the communion in eating Christ's flesh and drinking Christ's blood (1 Corinthians 11:23-34).

All of these "you" occurrences derive from the same supper:

The "you" in Luke 22:19 refers to all believers in all time.

The "you" in John 6:53 refers to all believers in all time.

The "you" in John John 15:16 refers to all believers in all time.

The "you" in John John 15:19 refers to all believers in all time.


Communion in Christ, completely of Christ by Christ and through Christ, is for the chosen of God!


Lord Jesus says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation) to all His own disciples (John 10:27-29) in all time.

Related post 1: more disciples present at supper

Related post 2: Free-willian's Claim To Superiority Over The Apostles

Related post 3: The Friend Of Jesus (John 15:15) Is Exclusively Chosen By Jesus (John 15:16)

Related post 4: Lord Jesus says "what I say to you I say to all" believers in Jesus Mark 13:37)

Related post 5: Lord Jesus Prophesies And Declares The Holy Spirit Indwelling Believers In Jesus Thus "You" In John 14-17 Includes All Believers In Jesus In All Time
Related post 6: Lord Jesus' prayer for us believers

Related post 7: Lord Jesus indicates during the supper that more than the 12 apostles were at the supper
Related post 8: John's writings for we believers in all time

Kermos said:

Jesus is Christ in us Christians.

Christ is the Word of God.

As a Christian, by God's grace, I proclaim Christ's Holy Sayings to you, TEXBOW.

The Word of God says there is no level that a person can choose Lord Jesus because He says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) as well as "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation) - Jesus, being God, did not provide any exception for choosing toward Jesus. Lord Jesus speaks to all believers in all time because He also said "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20)! All these words of Jesus are at the same supper! All glory is God's! With man, salvation is impossible (Matthew 19:25-26)! All glory in the salvation of man is God's (John 15:5, Isaiah 42:8, Psalm 3:8)!

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I feel your sincere love. I do not understand these scriptures the same way you do. Salvation is impossible for man to accomplish without God's free gift. A gift is not forced upon you. I think many of the those who believe we were predestined before the creation of the earth have difficulty understanding that God had foreknowledge of our acceptance of that free gift or not, that all the promises start at having faith and believing until the time of redemption. I think your timeline (predestination) starts at creation and my understanding is that it starts at salvation. After salvation we are predestined to the image of God, to be justified, Glorified, adoption, redemption and inheritance. All of these things take place at the time of the Rapture.
My Brother in Christ, we have our difference on this matter but my hope is one day we will both learn a few things together in Heaven.

Kermos said:

3) God punished Jesus the Son for the sins of man - Christ is the Lamb of God sacrificed fof God's chosen persons.

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So far you haven't produced a passage of scripture where it says that God punished Jesus Christ for the sins of man.

Truly, the context is that God "wiped away" the sins of men with the precious Blood of the Son of God at the cross in Romans 3:24-26.

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Once again, you are forcing a passage to say what you want to hear, not even paying attention to the lexicon you quote. "Letting go" of sin is NOT the same thing as punishing sin. "Overlooking" sin is the opposite of punishing sin. Paul's point is that God "suspended" sin while Jesus was on the cross, which stands in opposition to the notion that God was punishing sin on the cross.

Next time you quote the dictionary, please read it first.

When you wrote "God was not accepting the blood of Jesus as payment", then you deceive.

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The passages you cite don't say what you claim they say.

Kermos said:

See, you don't understand "ransom" because the definition of "ransom" does not equal "freedom" as has been previously presented to you, yet you practice the lawlessness of illegal word redefinition with "Ransom = freedom" (Matthew 7:23)

When you wrote "Ransom = freedom", then you lied because:

• "freedom" is defined as "unhindered liberty".
• "ransom" is defined as "demand for payment to recover ownership".
• "freedom" is not defined as "ransom".

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This is where I must stop trying to convince you and simply let you alone with your mistaken ideas.

In parting, consider the following verses:

2 Corinthians 3:17
Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

Galatians 2:4
But it was because of the false brethren secretly brought in, who had sneaked in to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, in order to bring us into bondage.

James 1:25
But one who looks intently at the perfect law, the law of liberty, and abides by it, not having become a forgetful hearer but an effectual doer, this man will be blessed in what he does.

James 2:12
So speak and so act as those who are to be judged by the law of liberty.

Galatians 5:1
It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery.

1 Peter 2:16
Act as free men, and do not use your freedom as a covering for evil, but use it as bondslaves of God.