Is Jesus God?

Stefcui · Feb 11, 2012

aspen said:
When the Creed was written the RCC was the universal church.

The Apostles Creed is likely to have been written by the Apostles. Catholic theologians and historians re-dated authors and writings to fit in with their "Apostolic Church" teaching. They re-dated the Apostolic Creed to make it look younger than what it actually is. The problem is, if the Apostolic Creed is younger, how did it pass the censorship that had developed ever since Nicene? It would have been destroyed as heresy if it was written after Nicene, for the trinity doctrine changed after then, as is clearly seen by comparing the two creeds.

The Apostolic Creed survived because it became part of the Greek Orthodox, Coptic, Syrian and Ethiopian churches. The earliest churches used the term “Catholic Church” 250 years before the Roman Catholics.

Steve

HeRoseFromTheDead · Feb 11, 2012

Steve said:
Groundzero seems willing and able to speak for himself. He is challenging the Christian faith when he introduces modalism for his beliefs. Modalism identifies God with masks… one person, three masks. It’s God’s party trick! Now you see me, now you don’t. The earliest Christians rightly labelled this a heresy. Groundzero needs to be fully aware that such a view pits him against 2000 years of Christian teaching. This is a very serious matter.
...
Groundzero is playing with fire by spreading such ideas when 99% of all Christian denominations hold this view to be heresy. We are not going to stone him to death. If he was a Muslim, though, spreading such teachings about Allah he might find himself decapitated. Christianity is tolerant; but we still have a duty to identify and correct false teachings if you know something to be false.

I'm speechless. One one hand (other posts), you have positioned yourself against those who, by embracing the traditions of the status quo, vigorously reject new revelation; and on the other, you now are opposed to those who's revelation contradicts tradition and the belief of 99% of Christians.

I have a right to defend a brother against what I consider to be false accusations. But more importantly, when you attacked him, you attacked me because I see things basically as he does. I think his view (or possibly explanation) needs refinement because the scriptures do make important distinctions between the father, spirit, and son. What those distinctions actually mean is a topic for discussion, not hateful divisiveness

I don't believe God is one person with three masks, but I do believe he is one person with three natures. I asked you to clearly define what you mean by the trinity, and you gave me an inconclusive creed that is open to interpretation.

Stefcui · Feb 11, 2012

HeRoseFromTheDead said:
I don't believe God is one person with three masks, but I do believe he is one person with three natures. I asked you to clearly define what you mean by the trinity, and you gave me an inconclusive creed that is open to interpretation.

We are at odds here; you don’t need to be speechless. Groundzero’s insistence that there is only one God who is Jesus alone begs for argument. That you believe the same requires the same scrutiny. I am not attacking him or you. You are being way too sensitive. We are discussing an opinion, not people.

What Groundzero is trying to do is the same that Nicene Christianity did, but in reverse. He is trying to place a formula of modalism as being the new trinity. I disagree with the Nicene trinity formula, and I also disagree with the Modalism formula. The Apostles Creed rejects both formulas by sticking to the scriptures. This is what I do also.

My opinions are not formularised, this is where you are confused about what I believe or say. I do believe in traditional Christian teaching from the 2[sup]nd[/sup] and 3[sup]rd[/sup] centuries; once those teachings became an institutional formula I am lost. I also believe new knowledge is available… this new knowledge will not contradict the most ancient Christian teachings; it will compliment and fulfil it.

God Bless
Steve

HeRoseFromTheDead · Feb 11, 2012

Steve said:
We are at odds here; you don’t need to be speechless. Groundzero’s insistence that there is only one God who is Jesus alone begs for argument. That you believe the same requires the same scrutiny.

Well here is my opinion for scrutinity. I would like to know where you find fault:

http://www.christianityboard.com/topic/14427-is-jesus-god/page__st__330__p__142920#entry142920
http://www.christian...post__p__139394

Stefcui · Feb 11, 2012

HeRoseFromTheDead said:
Well here is my opinion for scrutinity. I would like to know where you find fault...

Hi, your quotes are in red.

“And he is the visible form of the invisible God. Always has been, always will be.”

This statement is questionable. Is Jesus still invisible, as He always was, or does he now forever live as King of Kings over mankind with His resurrection body? This is a very small issue though.

“He is the first-born of the dead; that in all things he might have the pre-eminence. For it pleased the Father that in him should all fullness dwell.” (Colossians 1:18)

“To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaks better things that that of Abel.” (Hebrews 12:23)

“by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead.” (Galatians 1:1)

“Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.” (Philippians 1:2)

“from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.” (Colossians 1:2)

“from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.” (1 Thessalonians 1:2)

“from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.” (2 Thessalonians 1:2)

“Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the commandment of God our Savior, and Lord Jesus Christ, which is our hope.” (1 Timothy 1:1)

“Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, according to the promise of life which is in Christ Jesus.” (2 Timothy 1:1)

There are other scriptures, but suffice to say the persons of the father and son are completely different, and to consider the scriptures otherwise, you must twist and turn them to fit in with some major distortions. Apply Modalism to verses like these… God must be schizophrenic to talk about himself in such ways if modalism is true.

“The bible does teach distinctions between the three, even though they are one… I wonder if anyone actually thinks that the father, son and spirit are 3 separate persons? If so, which one rules? Consensus government? Pure BS.”

“There is no manifestation of the father apart from Jesus. Let anyone search the scriptures and show me where God the father has the visible form of a person apart from the Word (i.e., the lord of troops/forces/hosts). Or where the spirit has the form of a person, for that matter.”

It sounds like you are doing the attacking here. It becomes somewhat of a circular argument when you get to this stage. There are many other scriptures that could be cited, and many other references from the church fathers. I do not think I should need to find these scriptures and references for you. For 1/ …you are extremely intelligent and able. You are quite capable of answering these questions from the scriptures yourself. As you said in an earlier post; “we all see through a glass darkly.” This perception you have is likely for this reason, so I do not want to harp you about it.

My references to heresies were probably too strong, and I apologize to you and Groundzero. The early church considered these views heresy; I am on the fence. I do not think it is appropriate to develop a new formula for the trinity that contradicts previous models. I think you are perhaps trying to formularize the Godhead unwisely. It leads to all sorts of problems. That is why I advise sticking to something more neutral, like the Apostolic Creed. You cannot go wrong with that Creed. Everything else is speculation.

God Bless
Steve

HeRoseFromTheDead · Feb 12, 2012

Steve said:
“from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.”
...
There are other scriptures, but suffice to say the persons of the father and son are completely different, and to consider the scriptures otherwise, you must twist and turn them to fit in with some major distortions. Apply Modalism to verses like these… God must be schizophrenic to talk about himself in such ways if modalism is true.

Do you know how many scriptures I can list in which two different descriptions are used to describe the very same thing? It was a Hebrew literary device called parallelism, that is found throughout the bible, old and new. Here's an example from the same person who wrote most (if not all) of the scriptures you listed (peace be upon them, and mercy upon the Israel of God):

For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. And as many as walk according to this rule, peace [be] on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God. Galatians 6:15-16

It is those who apply your rule to the above scripture that "twist and turn [it] to fit" their "major distortions" of dispensationalism and other noxious doctrines by saying the first refers to the church, and the second refers to Israel.

HeRoseFromTheDead · Feb 12, 2012

btw, so as not to create confusion - I do believe the father and son are different. But I also believe my body and soul are different.

Stefcui · Feb 12, 2012

HeRoseFromTheDead said:
btw, so as not to create confusion - I do believe the father and son are different. But I also believe my body and soul are different.

I don't understand the debate, I give up.

KingdomCome · Feb 13, 2012

When you go to the beach, do you see the ocean?

Yes, but, you do not see the whole of the ocean.

Christ is what you see at the beach — Christ is God, yes, but — not the whole of God — Christ is the Son of God.

Christ brings us understandings from and blessings from God.

Lively Stone · Feb 13, 2012

KingdomCome said:
When you go to the beach, do you see the ocean?

Yes, but, you do not see the whole of the ocean.

Christ is what you see at the beach — Christ is God, yes, but — not the whole of God — Christ is the Son of God.

Christ brings us understandings from and blessings from God.

Jesus is God. It is because we are in the family of God through Jesus Christ, that God can now give us revelations of Himself according to His desire. If He wants us to see the whole ocean, we can.

KingdomCome · Feb 13, 2012

1 Cor:
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

To me, because I know that every Word given to us is Spirit and they are Life, God is all in all. I praise the Lord Christ Jesus for bringing the Father to me.

Joh 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Blessings to all...

HeRoseFromTheDead · Feb 13, 2012

KingdomCome said:
When you go to the beach, do you see the ocean?
Yes, but, you do not see the whole of the ocean.

I like that. And God is such that on whatever beach anyone is standing there they will see Christ. Christ, the interface between man and the father. In fact, between the father and his whole creation.

logabe · Feb 19, 2012

First of all... in order to become a human being, you must have
a human spirit, a soul, and a body. Did Jesus have these three
requirements to qualify as a human being?

I think so. The next thing we need to meditate upon is scripture.
John 4:24 says,

24 God is Spirit:

If God is Spirit, we need to ask ourselves what that means to us.
I think it means that God is invisible and He can't be seen unless
He manifests himself in something that can be seen. Col. 1:15,

15 Who is the image of the invisible God,

1st Tim. 1:17,

17 Now unto the King eternal, immortal,
invisible,the only wise God,

My point is... you cannot see God because He is invisible. God
enrobed himself in flesh for the purpose of dying for the sins of
the world. He became a man... just like me and you, in order to
feel what we feel when we are tempted.

John said, "the WORD became flesh" and dwelt among us,
what does that mean? It means that Jesus was a man that had
to rely on the Spirit just as we do.

But let’s back up a little bit and see that Jesus was the Word
before he was flesh. Where did the Word come from? Well, it
came from the center of the Spirit. In essence, when the Spirit
spoke the world was created.

Let there be light, and it was so. How can we separate the Spirit
of God from His Word? It is impossible to say that Jesus is
separate when we know that “God’s Word” created everything
and that same Word became flesh and dwelt among us. God is
Spirit, Word, and Power (Truth) and he humbled himself and
became a man.

Think about that for a minute…God laid down his power so
mankind could benefit from his weakness. Jesus said, my God,
my God, why have thou forsaken me. We need to know that the
man was speaking when the Spirit left him on the cross by himself.
Jesus felt the separation and immediately cried out from his
human spirit which was the Son of God.

Luke 23:46 says,

46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice,
he said, Father,into thy hands I commend my
spirit.

In essence, Jesus was telling the Spirit, not my will but, thy will
be done on earth as it is in heaven. He was laying down his life
for the world and the only one that could take his life was God.

The wages of sin is death but, Jesus never sinned, so the law
had no legal cause to bring death to him. He became a perfect
sacrifice for all mankind and that is how he satisfied the debt that
was owed to the Law. Heb. 10:5 says,

5 Therefore, when He comes into the world,
He says, ‘Sacrifice and offering Thou hast
not desired, but a body Thou hast prepared
for Me;

The author of Hebrews tells us that this was the body of Christ,
which would be made the true Sacrifice for sin. In the incarnation
at Bethlehem, God took upon Himself a body in the Person of Jesus
Christ, as Exodus 15:2 also prophesied, saying,

2 Yahweh is my strength and song, and He
has become my Yeshua; this is my God, and
I will praise Him; my father's God, and I will
extol Him.

Yeshua was Jesus' Hebrew name that means “Salvation.” Yeshua
was the name of the “body” that Yahweh took. The deity of Christ
is set forth here, as well as the mystery of the incarnation and
how God took human form through Mary's virgin birth.

Logabe

Groundzero · Feb 21, 2012

logabe said:
First of all... in order to become a human being, you must have
a human spirit, a soul, and a body. Did Jesus have these three
requirements to qualify as a human being?

I think so. The next thing we need to meditate upon is scripture.
John 4:24 says,

24 God is Spirit:

If God is Spirit, we need to ask ourselves what that means to us.
I think it means that God is invisible and He can't be seen unless
He manifests himself in something that can be seen. Col. 1:15,

15 Who is the image of the invisible God,

1st Tim. 1:17,

17 Now unto the King eternal, immortal,
invisible,the only wise God,

My point is... you cannot see God because He is invisible. God
enrobed himself in flesh for the purpose of dying for the sins of
the world. He became a man... just like me and you, in order to
feel what we feel when we are tempted.

John said, "the WORD became flesh" and dwelt among us,
what does that mean? It means that Jesus was a man that had
to rely on the Spirit just as we do.

But let’s back up a little bit and see that Jesus was the Word
before he was flesh. Where did the Word come from? Well, it
came from the center of the Spirit. In essence, when the Spirit
spoke the world was created.

Let there be light, and it was so. How can we separate the Spirit
of God from His Word? It is impossible to say that Jesus is
separate when we know that “God’s Word” created everything
and that same Word became flesh and dwelt among us. God is
Spirit, Word, and Power (Truth) and he humbled himself and
became a man.

Think about that for a minute…God laid down his power so
mankind could benefit from his weakness. Jesus said, my God,
my God, why have thou forsaken me. We need to know that the
man was speaking when the Spirit left him on the cross by himself.
Jesus felt the separation and immediately cried out from his
human spirit which was the Son of God.

Luke 23:46 says,

46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice,
he said, Father,into thy hands I commend my
spirit.

In essence, Jesus was telling the Spirit, not my will but, thy will
be done on earth as it is in heaven. He was laying down his life
for the world and the only one that could take his life was God.

The wages of sin is death but, Jesus never sinned, so the law
had no legal cause to bring death to him. He became a perfect
sacrifice for all mankind and that is how he satisfied the debt that
was owed to the Law. Heb. 10:5 says,

5 Therefore, when He comes into the world,
He says, ‘Sacrifice and offering Thou hast
not desired, but a body Thou hast prepared
for Me;

The author of Hebrews tells us that this was the body of Christ,
which would be made the true Sacrifice for sin. In the incarnation
at Bethlehem, God took upon Himself a body in the Person of Jesus
Christ, as Exodus 15:2 also prophesied, saying,

2 Yahweh is my strength and song, and He
has become my Yeshua; this is my God, and
I will praise Him; my father's God, and I will
extol Him.

Yeshua was Jesus' Hebrew name that means “Salvation.” Yeshua
was the name of the “body” that Yahweh took. The deity of Christ
is set forth here, as well as the mystery of the incarnation and
how God took human form through Mary's virgin birth.

Logabe

Thumbs up

HeRoseFromTheDead said:
(This indicates to me that the trinity doctrine was not orthodoxy as handed down by the apostles)

I'd give a million bucks to the first person who could show me where the apostles preached a Trinity! lol. Btw, I expect all claims to be fully grounded, not some poor reference that can fit right in with a Oneness view as well!

.

lawrance · Feb 22, 2012

Groundzero said:
Thumbs up

I'd give a million bucks to the first person who could show me where the apostles preached a Trinity! lol. Btw, I expect all claims to be fully grounded, not some poor reference that can fit right in with a Oneness view as well! .

They were abiding in the trinity and if you read your Bible you will come across it every where. when you realize what it is.
The word trinity came about through understanding.
People who attack the trinity have no idea and are just ranting and raving nonsense.

Groundzero · Feb 23, 2012

MR ROSENBERGER said:
They were abiding in the trinity and if you read your Bible you will come across it every where. when you realize what it is.
The word trinity came about through understanding.
People who attack the trinity have no idea and are just ranting and raving nonsense.

Lol. At least I can use Scripture to show that God is One, and not only One, but that Jesus is that ONE God. If the apostles were so 'Trinitarian', why don't I see any Scriptures backing it up? Oops. Sorry about that. I know that weak points can be very hard to defend. Also, if there really are verses about a Trinity, then they MUST be reconciled with the verses which declare Jesus to be the ONE God of eternity. Or else the Bible has a conflicting message, and cannot be trusted.

Lively Stone · Feb 23, 2012

Groundzero said:
Lol. At least I can use Scripture to show that God is One, and not only One, but that Jesus is that ONE God. If the apostles were so 'Trinitarian', why don't I see any Scriptures backing it up? Oops. Sorry about that. I know that weak points can be very hard to defend. Also, if there really are verses about a Trinity, then they MUST be reconciled with the verses which declare Jesus to be the ONE God of eternity. Or else the Bible has a conflicting message, and cannot be trusted.

The Trinity is found all throughout scripture if any is willing to look and asks the Lord to reveal what is true. Here are only three examples:

Isaiah 48:16
Come near to Me, listen to this: from the first I have not spoken in secret, from the time it took place, I was there, and now Adonai-Yehovah has sent Me and His Spirit."

This is an indication of the personhood of both the Son and Holy Spirit in the Trinity.

Matthew 3:16-17
And after being baptized, Jesus went up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove, and coming upon Him, and behold, a voice out of the heavens, saying, ‘This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well-pleased.’

Matthew 28:18-20
And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, ‘All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you, and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.’

lawrance · Feb 23, 2012

Groundzero. Jesus Christ is not the Father, Jesus is the Son
Remember the Father sent his only Son.
Jesus does not say he is the Father.

Who was it that rejected Jesus Christ ? the golden calf mob who destroy everything just as they did to their nation and people. and not only that they tried to kill Holy Moses, yes ? and they played the game and still are at it.

Come out from amongst them and accept The lord, our saviour. as he is the only way. no one can come to the Father but through his Son.

Groundzero · Feb 23, 2012

MR ROSENBERGER said:
Groundzero. Jesus Christ is not the Father, Jesus is the Son
Remember the Father sent his only Son.
Jesus does not say he is the Father.

Who was it that rejected Jesus Christ ? the golden calf mob who destroy everything just as they did to their nation and people. and not only that they tried to kill Holy Moses, yes ? and they played the game and still are at it.

Come out from amongst them and accept The lord, our saviour. as he is the only way. no one can come to the Father but through his Son.

Simple math declares that the moment you make Jesus ONLY the Son, you have just UNDEIFIED him. The Son was born, the son died, and the son will always be subject to the Father, because the son is the humanity of Jesus. Math declares that if you make Jesus 1/3 of God, then he really is not God at all, since he does not have the majority. A god who is not god over all, is not god at all.
Jesus Christ was the express image of the Father, and that is why we can come to the Father through the Son, because it was through his humanity, that Jesus, the Almighty God, redeemed us. Jesus Christ was humanity and deity, fused but not confused.

veteran · Feb 23, 2012

I can't believe you all are still debating this.

Christ Jesus is the express Image of The Father according to Hebrews 1. Jesus told Philip that if he'd seen Him he'd seen The Father.

If Christ Jesus is not God even when He came to die on the cross, then we have no Salvation, for a mere mortal man cannot save any us, but Jesus The Christ Who is not mere mortal man, but also God come in the flesh, can save us, and that's how He could be born in the flesh yet be without sin.

I Jn 5:6-7
6 This is He That came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.
7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
(KJV)

Many scholars try to say that above Scripture in John 5 was added, but it exists in some Greek manuscripts. And it agrees with the rest of God's Holy Writ.

Is Jesus God?

Is Jesus God?

Yes

No

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