All are under sin

RichardBurger · Sep 11, 2011

All are under sin:

It was asked by someone “would God ask us to do what we couldn’t do?“

The answer is yes, He asked the Jews to keep the Law of Moses. However, when they, the Jews, killed their Messiah (Jesus) He concluded that no man could keep the Law of Moses and He had another plan to save sinful men, a plan to shed the blood of His righteous Son on the cross to pay for the sins of mankind.

Romans 3:9-10
9 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all. For we have previously charged both Jews and Greeks that they are all under sin.
10 As it is written: "There is none righteous, no, not one;
NKJV

Galatians 3:21-26
21 Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law.
22 But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
23 But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed.
24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.
26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
NKJV

In this age of God’s grace salvation in not obtained by “not sinning in the flesh.” It is only obtained by a person placing their belief in the work of God on the cross. That means for a person to deny that they can do anything righteous to save him/her self and to simply place all their faith, trust, confidence and hope in what Jesus did on the cross. To claim His work on our behalf is our salvation. Jesus (God) gets all the glory and praise.

In this age of God’s grace all God asks a person to do is trust in His plan of salvation by placing their faith in His Son’s work on the cross. It is the only way that a person can be saved and yet many do not believe it is that simple. They insist that man has to work for it and become self-righteous.

2 Corinthians 11:3
3 But I fear, lest somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, so your minds may be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
NKJV

7angels · Sep 13, 2011

amen

but through Christ we can overcome sin and achieve a sinless life.

RichardBurger · Sep 13, 2011

7angels said:
amen

but through Christ we can overcome sin and achieve a sinless life.

I certainly believe that we """"HAVE""" overcome sins of the flesh but that does not mean we are sinless in the flesh. Jesus overcame sins of the flesh for us.

I do not believe we can be sinless in the flesh.

Prentis · Sep 13, 2011

RichardBurger said:
I certainly believe that we """"HAVE""" overcome sins of the flesh but that does not mean we are sinless in the flesh. Jesus overcame sins of the flesh for us.

I do not believe we can be sinless in the flesh.

Then Christ is an impossibility, since he lived sinless in the flesh.

7angels said:
amen

but through Christ we can overcome sin and achieve a sinless life.

Amen 7angels! Keep preaching it!

RichardBurger · Sep 16, 2011

I certainly believe that we """"HAVE""" overcome sins of the flesh but that does not mean we are sinless in the flesh. Jesus overcame sins of the flesh for us.

I do not believe we can be sinless in the flesh.

Prentis said:
Then Christ is an impossibility, since he lived sinless in the flesh.

Christ did not have a Father of sinful flesh. You are not like Christ but you sure seem to think you are given what you write. I do remember that Satan told Eve she could become like God and that is what I see you saying.

brionne · Sep 16, 2011

RichardBurger said:
In this age of God’s grace all God asks a person to do is trust in His plan of salvation by placing their faith in His Son’s work on the cross. It is the only way that a person can be saved and yet many do not believe it is that simple. They insist that man has to work for it and become self-righteous.

2 Corinthians 11:3
3 But I fear, lest somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, so your minds may be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
NKJV

Ah, i see.
So Jesus died, therefore we are all saved. Got it. You are right, that is easy. But hang on a tick.....

Didn't Jesus say that the road to life is not being found by many people...
Matthew 7:13-14 “Go in through the narrow gate; because broad and spacious is the road leading off into destruction, and many are the ones going in through it; 14 whereas narrow is the gate and cramped the road leading off into life, and few are the ones finding it
If salvation was so simple and so easy, why are only a few finding their way to it? Be careful that you are not directing people to the broad and spacious roadway...that is the easy way but sadly it leads to destruction.

When a man asked Jesus about salvation, Jesus did not say it was easy the way you have said. Jesus never said one needed simply to accept him as your Lord and Savior. Read Luke 13:23-24 “Lord, are those who are being saved few?..."Exert yourselves vigorously to get in through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will seek to get in but will not be able.”
You may object, but consider this, the Bible says:Romans 3:28 “A man is declared righteous by faith apart from works of law.” It also says: James 2:24.“A man is to be declared righteous by works, and not by faith alone.” Which is right? Are we declared righteous by faith or by works?
The harmonious answer from the Bible is that both are correct. Faith and Works (not works of mosaic law) are necessary. Thats why only few are finding the road to life....because they are not prepared to put in the 'work' necessary for salvation.

RichardBurger · Sep 16, 2011

Pegg said:
Ah, i see.
So Jesus died, therefore we are all saved. Got it. You are right, that is easy. But hang on a tick.....

Didn't Jesus say that the road to life is not being found by many people...
Matthew 7:13-14 “Go in through the narrow gate; because broad and spacious is the road leading off into destruction, and many are the ones going in through it; 14 whereas narrow is the gate and cramped the road leading off into life, and few are the ones finding it
If salvation was so simple and so easy, why are only a few finding their way to it? Be careful that you are not directing people to the broad and spacious roadway...that is the easy way but sadly it leads to destruction.

When a man asked Jesus about salvation, Jesus did not say it was easy the way you have said. Jesus never said one needed simply to accept him as your Lord and Savior. Read Luke 13:23-24 “Lord, are those who are being saved few?..."Exert yourselves vigorously to get in through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will seek to get in but will not be able.”
You may object, but consider this, the Bible says:Romans 3:28 “A man is declared righteous by faith apart from works of law.” It also says: James 2:24.“A man is to be declared righteous by works, and not by faith alone.” Which is right? Are we declared righteous by faith or by works?
The harmonious answer from the Bible is that both are correct. Faith and Works (not works of mosaic law) are necessary. Thats why only few are finding the road to life....because they are not prepared to put in the 'work' necessary for salvation.

Yes, the sins of all men were/are paid for on the cross. That is what scriptures tell us.

However they also say that not all men will believe it, and if they do not believe it, then how can their sins be paid for?

You said; "So Jesus died, therefore we are all saved. Got it. You are right, that is easy."

As you can see above I never said that. It is a figment of your imagination.

If you really study the scriptures you would see that the believing Jews (those that believed Jesus was/is their Messiah and King) were always telling the saved Gentiles under grace that they, the Gentiles, had to become circumcised and keep the Law of Moses. Those that tell us today that we have to keep the Law of Moses (any part of it) are doing the same thing.

Which is the easiest, swimming against the current or with it?

You said; "You may object, but consider this, the Bible says:
Romans 3:28 “A man is declared righteous by faith apart from works of law.” It also says: James 2:24.“A man is to be declared righteous by works, and not by faith alone.” Which is right? Are we declared righteous by faith or by works? ------ The harmonious answer from the Bible is that both are correct. Faith and Works (not works of mosaic law) are necessary. Thats why only few are finding the road to life....because they are not prepared to put in the 'work' necessary for salvation.

No! They are not both correct at this time. James wrote to the Jews who were under the Law of Moses. Paul writes to those that are under grace. But you want to harmonize the scriptures so that they fit your theology. Paul wrote to the Gentiles under grace and James wrote to the Jews who are under the Law of Moses, the 10 commandments.

No, my believing in salvation by the grace of God in Jesus Christ is not easy when I have my Judaizers just as Paul had and I have the so called Christians telling me that I have to do the impossible in order to be saved, that is become self-righteous and sinless by my works.

2 Corinthians 11:3
3 But I fear, lest somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, so your minds may be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
NKJV
　

Episkopos · Sep 16, 2011

RichardBurger said:
All are under sin:

It was asked by someone “would God ask us to do what we couldn’t do?“

The answer is yes, He asked the Jews to keep the Law of Moses. However, when they, the Jews, killed their Messiah (Jesus) He concluded that no man could keep the Law of Moses and He had another plan to save sinful men, a plan to shed the blood of His righteous Son on the cross to pay for the sins of mankind.

Romans 3:9-10
9 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all. For we have previously charged both Jews and Greeks that they are all under sin.
10 As it is written: "There is none righteous, no, not one;
NKJV

Galatians 3:21-26
21 Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law.
22 But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
23 But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed.
24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.
26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
NKJV

In this age of God’s grace salvation in not obtained by “not sinning in the flesh.” It is only obtained by a person placing their belief in the work of God on the cross. That means for a person to deny that they can do anything righteous to save him/her self and to simply place all their faith, trust, confidence and hope in what Jesus did on the cross. To claim His work on our behalf is our salvation. Jesus (God) gets all the glory and praise.

In this age of God’s grace all God asks a person to do is trust in His plan of salvation by placing their faith in His Son’s work on the cross. It is the only way that a person can be saved and yet many do not believe it is that simple. They insist that man has to work for it and become self-righteous.

2 Corinthians 11:3
3 But I fear, lest somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, so your minds may be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
NKJV

The point of the gospel is being missed here. The gospel is the power of a new overcoming life, not a scheme to save carnal men. We are to turn away from those who deny the present power of the risen Christ in them that believe.

RichardBurger · Sep 16, 2011

Episkopos said:
The point of the gospel is being missed here. The gospel is the power of a new overcoming life, not a scheme to save carnal men. We are to turn away from those who deny the present power of the risen Christ in them that believe.

Jesus came to save sinners, not the self-righteous.

Rach1370 · Sep 22, 2011

Salvation by grace as well by works is harmonious?? I'm afraid not....for the following reasons...
First...the bible says repeatedly, clearly and with no budging, that salvation is through grace alone, in faith alone in Christ alone. Full stop. It then says that when we are saved, we are to do good works...

[8] For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, [9] not a result of works, so that no one may boast. [10] For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. (Ephesians 2:8-10 ESV)

As we hear the gospel and become saved, God gifts us not only with grace, but with the Holy Spirit:

[13] For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. [14] For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.
(Romans 8:13-14 ESV)

It also tells us that apart from the indwelling of the Holy Spirit we have no hope to be righteous at all, no chance of living a godly life, no chance at all of achieving any of those works many say are necessary for salvation:

[18] For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. (Romans 7:18 ESV)

We cannot compromise on these scriptures...they are plain. Yes they talk of doing good works, but in context of each passage, the good works always come secondary to salvation, always a result of salvation...never to achieve salvation or even to hold onto it. Salvation is promised through Jesus, and after that comes the good works...not because we have to, but because we get to!

Consider this, if we need harmony...if we need to mesh to seemingly opposing scriptures. (I do not see them as such, but just for the sake of argument)...How do we make salvation by grace alone and works mesh? They go together perfectly if we say: Salvation is through grace alone, faith alone in Christ alone, and because of that I will spend my life doing good works. But you cannot make it fit the other way around. And you cannot deny that Scripture again and again speaks of salvation coming only through Christ, and only when we have faith in him. The passage in James does not contraction is, it strengthens it! Every time Paul mentions salvation through faith alone, he then goes on to say 'for good works'...or the like. Hence we know, and James backs this up, that a truly regenerated Christian, produces fruit. We just do...we desire it, long for it, are urged to it by the Holy Spirit! We can say we have all the faith in the world, but our fruit will tell the truth! That's what James is saying, and it is the only interpretation that does not flatly call Paul a liar. Jesus did a complete work on the cross, and while we live each day for him, it is not for something we will never be good enough to earn...it is solely for His glory!

RichardBurger · Sep 22, 2011

Rach said:
Salvation by grace as well by works is harmonious?? I'm afraid not....for the following reasons...
First...the bible says repeatedly, clearly and with no budging, that salvation is through grace alone, in faith alone in Christ alone. Full stop. It then says that when we are saved, we are to do good works...

[8] For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, [9] not a result of works, so that no one may boast. [10] For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. (Ephesians 2:8-10 ESV)

As we hear the gospel and become saved, God gifts us not only with grace, but with the Holy Spirit:

[13] For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. [14] For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.
(Romans 8:13-14 ESV)

It also tells us that apart from the indwelling of the Holy Spirit we have no hope to be righteous at all, no chance of living a godly life, no chance at all of achieving any of those works many say are necessary for salvation:

[18] For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. (Romans 7:18 ESV)

We cannot compromise on these scriptures...they are plain. Yes they talk of doing good works, but in context of each passage, the good works always come secondary to salvation, always a result of salvation...never to achieve salvation or even to hold onto it. Salvation is promised through Jesus, and after that comes the good works...not because we have to, but because we get to!

Consider this, if we need harmony...if we need to mesh to seemingly opposing scriptures. (I do not see them as such, but just for the sake of argument)...How do we make salvation by grace alone and works mesh? They go together perfectly if we say: Salvation is through grace alone, faith alone in Christ alone, and because of that I will spend my life doing good works. But you cannot make it fit the other way around. And you cannot deny that Scripture again and again speaks of salvation coming only through Christ, and only when we have faith in him. The passage in James does not contraction is, it strengthens it! Every time Paul mentions salvation through faith alone, he then goes on to say 'for good works'...or the like. Hence we know, and James backs this up, that a truly regenerated Christian, produces fruit. We just do...we desire it, long for it, are urged to it by the Holy Spirit! We can say we have all the faith in the world, but our fruit will tell the truth! That's what James is saying, and it is the only interpretation that does not flatly call Paul a liar. Jesus did a complete work on the cross, and while we live each day for him, it is not for something we will never be good enough to earn...it is solely for His glory!

You can't mix grace and works. Under grace we are justified by our faith in what Jesus did on the cross; that is Paul's message from God. Under work, justification is earned by works. James said we are """""justified"""" by our faith AND OUR WORKS. James mixes the two, Paul does not.

I do wish people would stop trying to put round pegs into square holes. It just won't fit. Try doing the obvious, accept the fact that James was writing to Jews (James 1:1) and and Paul was writing to the Gentiles.

Duckybill · Sep 22, 2011

RichardBurger said:
Jesus came to save sinners, not the self-righteous.

Those who strive to obey God are not self-righteous. But they are separate from sinners.

RichardBurger · Sep 22, 2011

Romans 3:21-26
21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,
22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference;
23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,
25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed,

26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
NKJV
Note that in verse 26 it is God that justifies those that place their faith in Jesus. Under grace we can't justify ourselves by our works as James claimed for the Jews.

In religion men want to develope a class system of those that are closer to God because of their works. They want to separate themselves above others as if they have stopped sinning in the flesh.

Duckybill · Sep 22, 2011

Everybody has sinned, but the righteous strive to live righteously.

2 Corinthians 7:1 (NKJV)
1 Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

Rach1370 · Sep 22, 2011

RichardBurger said:
You can't mix grace and works. Under grace we are justified by our faith in what Jesus did on the cross; that is Paul's message from God. Under work, justification is earned by works. James said we are """""justified"""" by our faith AND OUR WORKS. James mixes the two, Paul does not.

I do wish people would stop trying to put round pegs into square holes. It just won't fit. Try doing the obvious, accept the fact that James was writing to Jews (James 1:1) and and Paul was writing to the Gentiles.

I'm not mixing them, I'm laying them out in a biblical fashion. Salvation by faith first....which leads to a life of good works.
And I'm afraid that the opinion that James is writing to the Jews is just that...opinion. The message in scripture is harmonious...it always is...all pointing to the glory of God. The salvation of people is the ultimate showing of his glory and wonder. James is saying that people who claim faith have a natural out pouring of fruit as good works in their life. If a person claims faith but simply has no good fruit...their claim is false. This in no way contradicts what Paul says when he tells us that we cannot achieve salvation by works. Works is something that comes out of salvation, not the other way around.

RichardBurger · Sep 22, 2011

Rach said:
I'm not mixing them, I'm laying them out in a biblical fashion. Salvation by faith first....which leads to a life of good works.
And I'm afraid that the opinion that James is writing to the Jews is just that...opinion. The message in scripture is harmonious...it always is...all pointing to the glory of God. The salvation of people is the ultimate showing of his glory and wonder. James is saying that people who claim faith have a natural out pouring of fruit as good works in their life. If a person claims faith but simply has no good fruit...their claim is false. This in no way contradicts what Paul says when he tells us that we cannot achieve salvation by works. Works is something that comes out of salvation, not the other way around.

The problem, as see it, is that the self-righteouse think they are the only ones living a life of good works; by their own diffinition of what is right for them. I don't think It is good works for a person to act as if they are entiled to be first in line, to run red lights and endanger otthers, to drive at excessive speed endangering others, to make fun of what others believe, to think that everyone has to live their life according to them. In religion, to stand in the doorway of the church carring on a conversation while blocking the egress of others (no consideration for others, etc. The self-righteous will never see that they do any of these things because they see themselves as being perfect.

bling · Sep 22, 2011

RichardBurger said:
All are under sin:

It was asked by someone “would God ask us to do what we couldn’t do?“

The answer is yes, He asked the Jews to keep the Law of Moses. However, when they, the Jews, killed their Messiah (Jesus) He concluded that no man could keep the Law of Moses and He had another plan to save sinful men, a plan to shed the blood of His righteous Son on the cross to pay for the sins of mankind.

“He concluded that no man could keep the Law of Moses and He had another plan to save sinful men”

You have got to be kidding?

If I was around at that time with my limited knowledge I could have helped God out by telling Him: “no one can keep from coveting under his own power”.

God knew man would sin from day one, but sin is not the problem and not sinning is not the objective.

Rach1370 · Sep 22, 2011

RichardBurger said:
The problem, as see it, is that the self-righteouse think they are the only ones living a life of good works; by their own diffinition of what is right for them. I don't think It is good works for a person to act as if they are entiled to be first in line, to run red lights and endanger otthers, to drive at excessive speed endangering others, to make fun of what others believe, to think that everyone has to live their life according to them. In religion, to stand in the doorway of the church carring on a conversation while blocking the egress of others (no consideration for others, etc. The self-righteous will never see that they do any of these things because they see themselves as being perfect.

I'm sorry, I'm not quite following what you mean here, in relation to replying to my post. I've never said that Christians, while assured of their salvation, are then free to act like jerks! There is a huge difference between 'self righteousness' and 'the righteousness of God'. As Christians, we live our lives trying to achieve the second....not because it is the only way to salvation, but because Jesus is our Lord, Saviour and all. Our good works come from our desire to give glory to Him. Any fool who cannot think of anyone but himself is missing the entire point!!

RichardBurger · Sep 23, 2011

Romans 3:21-26
21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,
22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference;
23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,
25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed,
26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
NKJV
We have no righteousness of our own. However we obtain His righteousness by placing our faith in the work of Jesus on the cross.

Rach said:
I'm sorry, I'm not quite following what you mean here, in relation to replying to my post. I've never said that Christians, while assured of their salvation, are then free to act like jerks! There is a huge difference between 'self righteousness' and 'the righteousness of God'. As Christians, we live our lives trying to achieve the second....not because it is the only way to salvation, but because Jesus is our Lord, Saviour and all. Our good works come from our desire to give glory to Him. Any fool who cannot think of anyone but himself is missing the entire point!!

The point is that all men are sinful in the flesh and do sin in the flesh. If you place yourself above or ahead of others you are commiting sin. If you are not considerate of others you are commiting sin. But the religious will never admit that they sin when they do these things. We all sin and no one is sinless in the flesh.

Rach1370 · Sep 23, 2011

RichardBurger said:
The point is that all men are sinful in the flesh and do sin in the flesh. If you place yourself above or ahead of others you are commiting sin. If you are not considerate of others you are commiting sin. But the religious will never admit that they sin when they do these things. We all sin and no one is sinless in the flesh.

I agree. We must all strive against becoming 'religious', and we are warned well....Jesus was pretty harsh and clear to the Pharisees....and that should be a pertinent warning to all of us. Of course, it's always much easier to see sin and fault in others...but I think as long as we are constantly asking ourselves if what we see in others actually has root in our own lives as well...and then truly want to put sin to death, it will be a good start! We should forever remind ourselves that it's 'not about me'...and to be willing to find sin and kill it within our own lives first.

All are under sin

New Member

Active Member

New Member

New Member

New Member

Active Member

New Member

Well-Known Member

New Member

New Member

New Member

New Member

New Member

New Member

New Member

New Member

New Member

New Member

New Member

New Member

Similar threads