The nations have gone mad...

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Insight

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I sense a hint of pride in not answering so I will relieve of your burden.

"Forasmuch as iron (Roman Empire) breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things; and as iron (Roman Empire) that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise"

And then of feet of iron and clay

"But there shall be in it of the strength of the iron (Original Roman Empire), forasmuch as thou sawest the iron (Fragmented Roman Empire) mixed with miry clay (seed of men). And as the toes of the feet were part of Iron (Fragmented Roman Empire) and part clay. So the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken. And whereas thou sawest iron (Fragmented Roman Empire) mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men (clay)"

No 5th Beast in Dan 7 and no 5th metal in Dan 2.

If in Dan 2 we were revealed Uranium in the feet and recorded an even more "terrible" beast than the fourth in Daniel 7 then you would have a foundation to work from, however we only see a continuation of the Roman Empire (secular and ecclesiastical) right up until the return of Jesus Christ in the earth.
 

BibleScribe

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No 5th Beast in Dan 7 and no 5th metal in Dan 2.
...


You swallowed a camel.


The fact is, -- both Scripture and History agree that there are FIVE world empires, for which the empire of Clay is "divided" between the three-superpowers.

Is this fifth empire unique? -- NO
Is it distinct? -- YES

Thus the heritage of having the Iron is recognized, but the Clay is NOT the Iron -- exactly as Daniel 2:45 depicts.


So once again, if you insist that Daniel 2 only provides for FOUR world empires, that's fine, -- so long as you address the significance (ANY SIGNIFICANCE) of the 4,3,5,2,1 sequence of Daniel 2:45. But failing an explanation of that Scripture verse, you stand in defiance of GOD's Word. :)


BibleScribe



PS Just so you know, Clay is not the mush which you presume. There are precision medical & high-end cutlery manufactured using clay, under the name Kyrocera.
 

Insight

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Hi Biblescribe,

After four hours sleep we are back to our fruitful discussion.

It appears you are in a stalemate in your 5 ≠ 4 and 4 ≠ 5 scenario.

So how do we unravel the bind you are in?

Well maybe you could provide us with some commentary on the following passage paying particular attention to the coming together of what is the Roman element of the legs and the seed of men.

"But there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay"

What I am looking from you is an understanding of the process of this mixing or mingling between what you think is the iron in the feet and the seed of men (or Mankind)

After this we can move into Daniel 7 to discuss how this fourth beast takes us right up to the return of Christ.

Insight
 

aspen

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THE UNCLEAN SPIRIT LIKE FROGS

And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet Rev 16:13

These “unclean spirits like frogs” are “the spirits of devils” (or in Gk. demons). In the New Testament demons or devils are associated with mental instability, insanity – Hence we may understand the basic idea that a spirit of madness is to go forth to the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them in opposition to God Almighty (See Jer 51:7).

We may further note that the word “spirit” means a force, and by extension can relate to a disposition of mind (eg. Eph 4:23). In 1 John 4:1 “spirit” is associated with teachings (that which affects or influences the mind) - and that would seem to be the idea in Rev 16:13 where the spirits come “out of the mouth”. Teachings, doctrines and policies come out of a mouthpiece - and this is what we see here.

“like frogs” - In seeking a Scriptural key for this sign, we can only go to Exodus 8. It is the only incident where frogs occur in the whole of the Bible. What can we learn from this plague of frogs that will help us to understand that insane philosophy or teaching that will lead the nations of the world into Armageddon?

What did the plague of frogs accomplish? At first glance we may think that they accomplished very little beyond a nuisance and a bad smell. But if the account be read carefully it may be noted that as a result of this plague - and for the first time, Pharaoh promises liberty:

“Entreat the Lord, that he may take away the frogs from me, and from my people; and I will let the people go, that they may do sacrifice unto the Lord.” (Exod 8:8)
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So as a result of the frogs we can see a promise of liberty; even of religious liberty to the Jewish people - but it was a false promise.

But this is not all that we learn. A comment upon the plagues in Psalm 78 mentions “frogs, which destroyed them” (Psa 78:45). The trouble here is that the frogs did not “destroy” them. The Hebrew word here translated “destroyed” is schachath; to cause decay or ruin; to corrupt.

The frogs may have contributed to the ruin of Egypt, but the Psalmist has more than that in mind - for this Psalm is a parable (Psa 78:2). The same word is used in Exod 32:7 for example, and refers to moral corruption. Such an idea is very well suited to a teaching or philosophy which is to gather peoples in opposition to Almighty God.

A Godless Spirit - As we piece together the clues that are provided in the symbolism of the passage under review it is difficult to ignore the growing links with those philosophical teachings that found political expression in the French Revolution. It was indeed a spirit of madness - it was utterly godless. It was an unclean spirit or teaching that would corrupt not only the French nation, but in time the whole of the world. From this source would come the atheistic teaching of the theory of evolution and the consequent denial of creation. It would teach liberty, only to produce a Reign of Terror. It was a spirit that originated in human wisdom and of which James wrote:

“This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, demoniacal. For where envying and strife is, there is confusion and every evil work” (James 3:15-16)
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James uses the Greek word akatastasia, translated “confusion” but which Vine renders revolution or anarchy! The words are important. This “demoniacal” wisdom of which James speaks is the basis of that godless and insane philosophy that will gather the nations to Armageddon. It was a philosophy brought forth like an abundance of frogs which entered into the chambers of all the kings of Europe, which spiritually is called Egypt (Psa 105:30).

It promised liberty, but it brought moral and spiritual corruption (cp. 2 Pet 2:19).

This spirit has swept all before it. No philosophy or religious creed has withstood it. It has brought vast changes to the world through education, political emancipation and apparent freedoms. Today we see it in women’s rights, gay rights and rights for every other moral perversion. It is madness, it is wickedness - and it is extremely powerful.

Jesus has warned us about this spirit and he has told us what it is accomplishing. His message to us is “watch”. It is the spirit of our age and we are to overcome it through faith and patience.

Even so come Lord Jesus

Insight

Seems to me like you are shooting yourself in the foot; on one hand, you promote Jesus' Kingdom on Earth and the power of the Holy Spirit to change hearts; on the other hand, you condemn any progress as worldly works that must be fought against!

Jesus wasn't a gnostic! He believed that spiritual growth affected the world for Good! The welfare of people mattered to Him. We are called to be a light in the world and to retain our saltiness - most of the programs you condemned in your post were started by people interested in spreading Christian charity........the fact that secular people have taken over the programs is partly myth and only speaks to the Goodness of the ideas.

If we expect to make an impact in the world for Christ AND condemn all good ideas as worldly - how do we expect to do anything more than spin our wheels?
 

Insight

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Seems to me like you are shooting yourself in the foot; on one hand, you promote Jesus' Kingdom on Earth and the power of the Holy Spirit to change hearts; on the other hand, you condemn any progress as worldly works that must be fought against!

Jesus wasn't a gnostic! He believed that spiritual growth affected the world for Good! The welfare of people mattered to Him. We are called to be a light in the world and to retain our saltiness - most of the programs you condemned in your post were started by people interested in spreading Christian charity........the fact that secular people have taken over the programs is partly myth and only speaks to the Goodness of the ideas.

If we expect to make an impact in the world for Christ AND condemn all good ideas as worldly - how do we expect to do anything more than spin our wheels?

Yes Aspen, I believe you have caught a glimpse of the reality. Luke 18:8

Frightening isn’t it?
 

BibleScribe

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It appears you are in a stalemate in your 5 ≠ 4 and 4 ≠ 5 scenario.
...


Hi Insight,

I'm not sure why you attribute Scripture to me. I didn't conceive it, I didn't write it, and I didn't publish it. I merely read it. As such, maybe you should blame GOD for providing the sequence: Iron, Bronze, Clay, Silver, Gold, -- 4,3,5,2,1 = FIVE.

But please don't be dismayed. Many people hate GOD's Word either directly or vicariously. I just wish it wasn't vicariously thru me. :)


BibleScribe
 

Insight

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Best we move on...but if you find
magnifier.gif
that 5th beast let me know.

Must continue the with the Spirits like Frogs (Dan 2 & 7 & Rev 16:13,14,15).

Take care!

insight
 

Insight

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The later day fulfilment of the Three Spirits like frogs (Rev 16:13,14,15) must be seen by all who understand those things which must shortly come to pass. Their eyes are enlightened to political and ecclesiastical powers at force in the world. They understand that flesh must rise up on its feet as per Dan 2 in preparation for war.

The fourth (4[sup]th[/sup]) beast of Dan 7 combines and added to the fearsome characteristics of all the previous beasts (three empires) that preceded it (see Rev 13:2).

So we are presented with Dan 7:7

After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.

We are then presented with some important detail regarding the characteristics of the fourth beast that I will not go into here, needless to say, this fourth and final beast is eventually destroyed (like the feet of Dan 2) when Christ smites the image in its feet – of course the grinding process of this kingdom will take some time.

Then we read further insight into the other three beasts.

[sup]12[/sup]As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time (1000 years).

This implies that the other beasts were not completely destroyed by the Fourth Beast, but only absorbed by it. This is consistent with the continuation of the Babylon Empire / System in the earth.

After the Fourth Beast is destroyed (and it will extend its influence over all four corners of the earth until the time of the end) the subordinate powers will recover their independence and national identity. As such, an ultimatum will issue forth from the King in Zion, they will be invited to submit to his authority and rule (Rev 14:8,9,10).

[sup]13[/sup]I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.

Once again we see the 5[sup]th[/sup] phase of Dan 2 must be found within the fourth beast and its horns as we see Christ returns to the earth to establish his dominion of this beast system.
 

Insight

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The purpose then of these spirits like frogs is to gather the nations to the "battle of that great day of God Almighty" even "Armageddon" (See Rev 16:14, 16).

I would like to now return to the work of the Frogs during the rise of the image and development of the fourth beast of Dan 7.

We are now talking about the Sixth Vial epoch in Rev. 16:12-16) in which epoch we now live!

I will not aim to prove this here, as I would like to continue concentrating on the section of the vial dealing with the work of the frogs.

They are only mentioned in three here in Rev 16: 13 to cause anger in the nations that will result in the war of Armageddon.

While I have dealt briefly with (1) the significance of the frog symbol. (2) the three 'mouths' and what they represent (Rev. 16:13) I would like develop this out.

It is not the first time God has sent an “Evil Spirit of disaster” into the world as per Judges 9:23. In many ways the three Spirits like Frogs represent certain events that were allowed to take place in history to bring about events seen today.

France and the Frog

France today remains active in international affairs, particularly involved with the EU via its many treaties. In latter days, France will become involved with the re-emergence of the ten kings .

Ultimately, France, already a dominaint force internationally will beocme ensnared by her own frog spirit causing her to become an ally of Russia (See Ezek. 38:6). (Talk of Russian joining the EU is building progressively as I type)

For interest: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/currency/8163347/Putin-Russia-will-join-the-euro-one-day.html

I will leave it on your hands to study the symbol of the Frog and France. They enjoy a very strong history – should you require evidence by all means ask.
 

BibleScribe

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... the 5[sup]th[/sup] phase of Dan 2 ...

Hey Insight,

I think your trying VERY HARD to attain a 4a/4b from a FIVE. And I certainly can't fault you for trying to shoehorn a step-sister's foot into a glass slipper, -- I just don't think it fits. :lol:

Have you considered a bigger shoehorn? -- Maybe one the size of the solar system? :D
BibleScribe
 

Insight

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What is the mouth symbolic of in this prophecy? Rev 16:13

This may help Rev 12:15; 16;13:11

We have reference to the mouth of the Dragon, Beast, Serpent, and False Prophet.

Any thoughts?

Insight

p.s the answer is not Biblescribes posts.
 

BibleScribe

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Hi Insight,

~Mouths~, just as sevens, are not synonymous.


Secondly, have you considered the FIVE world empires of Daniel 2, and that Fifth "divided" as detailed in Daniel 7?



BibleScribe
 

Insight

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And I saw, coming out of the mouth of the dragon and out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet, three unclean spirits like frogs.

A "mouth" in this context must speak as a symbol of government in the earth. As we see their purpose is to form policies (Kings of the earth) which result in war.

To demonstrate this we can consider the image in Dan 2.

The metals of the image reveal two fundamental trends.
  1. As the metals more through time they become less valuable – gold to Iron
  2. As the metals more through time they become stronger – gold to Iron

Therefore a simple analysis reveals that governments in the earth will weaken as the power is shifted from dictator (Nebuchadnezzar) to Iron (EU and confederate nations) to clay (the people). However, the strength of the Iron is still present in the latter day fragments of Rome.

It is the work of the three (3) Spirits of madness (manifested through democracy) to antagonise the nations to war.

The saying “power to the people” is one such message coming out of the people, which here in Rev 16:13,14,15 comes out of three symbols (Dragon, Beast and False Prophet) which must therefore be secular, government and religious in nature.

Insight
 

BibleScribe

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A "mouth" in this context must speak as a symbol of government in the earth. ...
...


I would most strongly disagree in the context of the Revelation 13 beast.

Please consider the identities of these three beasts (lion/leopard/bear) and their geopolitical circumstances in regard to their respective physical designation.



BibleScribe
 

Insight

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I would most strongly disagree in the context of the Revelation 13 beast.

Please consider the identities of these three beasts (lion/leopard/bear) and their geopolitical circumstances in regard to their respective physical designation.

BibleScribe

If you are willing to start a thread on Rev 13 I would be more than happy to contribute.

Insight
 

BibleScribe

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If you are willing to start a thread on Rev 13 I would be more than happy to contribute.

Insight


Hey Insight,

It's the same thread we've been debating for this entire Topic:


1. Gold, Babylonian
2. Silver, Medo/Persia
3. Bronze, Grecia
4. Iron, Roman
-- Clay, "divided"
-- 5. Lion/Eagle, U.K./U.S.
-- 6. Bear, Russia
-- 7. Leopard, China
-- 8. "Dreadful", United Nations


So I would observe that the beast's "mouth" is actually a non-"7-head" "head", as the U.K./U.S. is known for it's intelligence in technology, financial, and trade. But to avoid depiction-confusion, John calls this entity the "mouth". Secondly, China is known for it's population, and the "body" is the greatest mass. And finally, Russia has 8.5M sq. miles versus the U.S., Canada, and China which only have 3.62 - 3.85M sq. miles, and is represented as the "feet" because of that expanse.


Each of the Rev. 13 beast attributes should be obvious. :)


BibleScribe
 

Insight

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"And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion" Rev13:2NET

Daniel also saw a leopard, bear, and lion which contributed to the development of the "fourth beast" which he left unnamed (Dan. 7:4,5,6,7). Daniel described how that each beast in turn ate up the one before it, so that the fourth beast comprised a combination of all the previous beasts.

The issue we face Biblescribe is your understanding of the four beasts of Daniel & Revelation will differ form mine, as I believe the four beasts found in Revelation are successive beasts of the fourth beast found in Daniel 7...bringing us to the return of the Lord Jesus Christ.

There is little benefit in going forward if we cannot agree on the relationship between Daniel 2,7 and the Revelation.

Sorry it took me so long to respond.

Insight
 

BibleScribe

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... I believe the four beasts found in Revelation are successive beasts of the fourth beast found in Daniel 7...


Hi Insight,

Why do I have this impression that you ascribe some ~future~ fulfillment for these three beasts, which coincide with the first three of Daniel 7, but aren't, -- because you apparently assert they are a different Lion/Bear/Leopard out of "the fourth beast ... in Daniel 7"?

You seem to be taking an awfully contorted view of this Lion/Bear/Leopard, by ignoring what is right in front of you and assuming something which I might propose has neither Scriptural nor historical (present/future) basis.


Is GOD really so cryptic that HE would seek to confuse us with such convolutions? -- Or has your imagination run amok? :)

BibleScribe
 

Insight

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In Rev 13 we have John reporting to us the uprising of two beasts.
  1. The first he sees arises from out of the sea;
  2. the second arises from out of the earth.

The first is likened to various beasts and has seven heads and ten horns; the second has two horns, and whilst having the appearance of a lamb, it speaks and acts like a dragon.

The first beast suffers a serious wound, but recovers there from to manifest great power with the help of the dragon; the second beast has dominion contemporary with that of the first beast, and by its influence induces the world to do homage to the first beast.

The first beast continues for forty and two months exercising great power and blaspheming against God and His people; while the second beast erects an image to the first beast, and compels all to give homage to it in threat of death.

Clearly this vision symbolises power and influence by a power in the earth, its political and religious manifestations depicts the brutal persecution by which it endeavoured to bend the minds of men to its doctrines and practises.

I will await your definition of the political and religious powers to which these two beasts speak.
 

BibleScribe

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In Rev 13 we have John reporting to us the uprising of two beasts.
  1. The first he sees arises from out of the sea;
  2. the second arises from out of the earth.
The first is likened to various beasts and has seven heads and ten horns; the second has two horns, and whilst having the appearance of a lamb, it speaks and acts like a dragon.

The first beast suffers a serious wound, but recovers there from to manifest great power with the help of the dragon; the second beast has dominion contemporary with that of the first beast, and by its influence induces the world to do homage to the first beast.

The first beast continues for forty and two months exercising great power and blaspheming against God and His people; while the second beast erects an image to the first beast, and compels all to give homage to it in threat of death.

Clearly this vision symbolises power and influence by a power in the earth, its political and religious manifestations depicts the brutal persecution by which it endeavoured to bend the minds of men to its doctrines and practises.

I will await your definition of the political and religious powers to which these two beasts speak.



Hi Insight,

I agree with the citations of both the beast and the false prophet. But it is not enough to simply re-state Scripture. You should have SOME greater understanding of inferences, significance, associations, and identities, -- but you offer none of these. And then you insist for that which I've provided multiple times. Do you want me to do all the work? Are you not able to receive a portion, and then multiply it? -- You do recall what happened to the servant which hid his talent, -- and so I would adjure you to not be as that example.


So where do we go from here? Having presented the evidence of a FIFTH "divided" Empire of Clay, are you willing to address those "divided" kingdoms specified in Daniel 7? Or are you as so many who prefer their false-doctrine security blanket?



BibleScribe