Was Bible Possession banned by the Catholic Church

Hobie · Feb 3, 2024

BreadOfLife said:
No “misunderstanding”.

First of all – the Index of Prohibited Books was a disciplinary measure - NOT a doctrinal statement. It was intended to keep inappropriate or otherwise heretical texts from being read or shared among Catholics.

In any case - this has absolutely NOTHING to do with keeping the Bible out of the hands of the “common people”. Ony spurious and unauthorized versions of the Bible, which contained errors and heresies were prohibited.

Thanks for not addressing a SINGLE point I made . . .

Have to follow the 'Magistrate', as he is infallible so got to do any 'disciplinary measure' he lays down. But what happens if Gods Word disagrees with his 'doctrinal statement's or his claims from ex cathedra ....

Q. What if the Holy Scriptures command one thing, and the Pope another contrary to it?

A. The Holy Scriptures must be thrown aside, as being doubtful, ... (u) André Du Val, Libelli de ecclesiastica et politica potestate, p. 88, 89.

What 'points' would you like to discuss as you can see the 'magistrate' doesnt regard scripture as truth, but only itself......

BreadOfLife · Feb 3, 2024

Hobie said:
Have to follow the 'Magistrate', as he is infallible so got to do any 'disciplinary measure' he lays down. But what happens if Gods Word disagrees with his 'doctrinal statement's or his claims from ex cathedra ....

Q. What if the Holy Scriptures command one thing, and the Pope another contrary to it?

A. The Holy Scriptures must be thrown aside, as being doubtful, ... (u) André Du Val, Libelli de ecclesiastica et politica potestate, p. 88, 89.

Nonsense.

The fact that the Scriptures are the truth of God has ALWAYS been taught by His Church. From the Catechism:
107 The inspired books(of Scripture) teach the truth. "Since therefore all that the inspired authors or sacred writers affirm should be regarded as affirmed by the Holy Spirit, we must acknowledge that the books of Scripture firmly, faithfully, and without error teach that truth which God, for the sake of our salvation, wished to see confided to the Sacred Scriptures."72

The Pope doesn’t make ex cathedra statements that are “contrary” to God’s Word.

Hobie said:
What 'points' would you like to discuss as you can see the 'magistrate' doesnt regard scripture as truth, but only itself......

This is twice now that you have failed to address a SINGLE point I made – especially with regard ti the fallacy that the Church kept the Bible out of the hands of the “common people”.

When you have either addressed this or simply admit that you don’t have a response – then, we can move on to another subject . . .

Windmillcharge · Feb 3, 2024

Adding my threepenny worth.

Bible Forbidden to the Laity

justforcatholics.org

This Catholic site acknowledges that the rcc did stop the laity from reading the bible.

From my own experience, I've worked with rcc's one of whom was proud to posses a family bible complete with a bishops permission for them to own and read the bible.

One has to face the unpleasant fact that the rcc is very economical with the truth.

Hobie · Feb 4, 2024

BreadOfLife said:
Nonsense.

The fact that the Scriptures are the truth of God has ALWAYS been taught by His Church. From the Catechism:
107 The inspired books(of Scripture) teach the truth. "Since therefore all that the inspired authors or sacred writers affirm should be regarded as affirmed by the Holy Spirit, we must acknowledge that the books of Scripture firmly, faithfully, and without error teach that truth which God, for the sake of our salvation, wished to see confided to the Sacred Scriptures."72

The Pope doesn’t make ex cathedra statements that are “contrary” to God’s Word.

This is twice now that you have failed to address a SINGLE point I made – especially with regard ti the fallacy that the Church kept the Bible out of the hands of the “common people”.

When you have either addressed this or simply admit that you don’t have a response – then, we can move on to another subject . . .

No, if the Pope says it, then even if it goes 'contrary' to Gods Word it is implemented, what do you think the whole 95 theses was all about...

BreadOfLife · Feb 4, 2024

Hobie said:
No, if the Pope says it, then even if it goes 'contrary' to Gods Word it is implemented, what do you think the whole 95 theses was all about...

WRONG.
There isn't a SINGLE instance of a Pope making declrations or teachiungs that are contrary to Scripture.

BreadOfLife · Feb 4, 2024

Windmillcharge said:
Adding my threepenny worth.

Bible Forbidden to the Laity

justforcatholics.org

This Catholic site acknowledges that the rcc did stop the laity from reading the bible.

From my own experience, I've worked with rcc's one of whom was proud to posses a family bible complete with a bishops permission for them to own and read the bible.

One has to face the unpleasant fact that the rcc is very economical with the truth.

Ummm - FIRST of all, this isn't a "Catholic" site. It is an anti-Catholic siute run by Evangelicals: (Just for Catholics: About)

Secondly, the "historical" infrmation on this page is laughable, at BEST.
From the site:
"In early times, the Bible was read freely by the lay people, and the Fathers constantly encourage them to do so, although they also insist on the obscurity of the sacred text."

As I stated earlier - a serious historian would have known that in "early times", MOST [ep[le were illiterate. Not only could they NOT read a Bible – they couldn’t OWN one.

They were hand-copied and very expensive to produce – and took YEARS to complete. This is why Bibles in the Early Church were CHAINED to pulpits, so that they wouldn’t be stolen and sold.

Lies lie the pone above in RED are why I classify this site as “anti-Catholic”.

Big Boy Johnson · Feb 4, 2024

BreadOfLife said:
There isn't a SINGLE instance of a Pope making declrations or teachiungs that are contrary to Scripture.

Illuminator · Feb 4, 2024

Big Boy Johnson said:
View attachment 41083

What's so funny? BofL is correct. I would add "There isn't a SINGLE instance of a Pope making formal declarations or teachings that are contrary to Scripture. Full context of formal teachings are available on line for anyone who wishes to do honest research. Why don't you mock formal teachings of the last 100 years, and pull your head out of 15th century politics that colors your bigotry???

The Papal Encyclicals Online

“The Papal Encyclicals 1740-1981” published by Pierian Press. For several years, St. Michael’s Depot included these documents.

www.papalencyclicals.net

Easy to read summaries are also available, but you are afraid of them too.

Illuminator · Feb 4, 2024

(Vatican Radio) Pope Francis on Sunday called on Christians to consult the Bible with the same frequency as they might consult their cellphones for messages.

Speaking to the crowds gathered in St. Peter’s Square following his weekly Angelus blessing, the Pope urged those present to give the Bible the same place in daily life as cellphones and asked: “What would happen if we turned back when we forget it, if we opened it more times a day, if we read the message of God contained in the Bible the way we read messages on our cellphones?”
The Bible, he explained, contains the Word of God, the most effective tool in fighting evil and keeping us close to God.
Clearly, Francis said, the comparison between the Bible and the cellphone is paradoxical, but it induces us to reflect.

False translations were once banned centuries ago, for the same reason you would ban a gender free Bible.

bluedragon · Feb 4, 2024

Come on ......everyone knows the first printing press was not available before 1440.

The backlog of printing jobs was so great, it took several hundred years to catch up. Those guys got a lot of overtime ......LOL

BreadOfLife · Feb 4, 2024

Big Boy Johnson said:
View attachment 41083

Classic example of an oblivious non-answer . . .

Big Boy Johnson · Feb 4, 2024

BreadOfLife said:
Classic example of an oblivious non-answer . . .

Claiming all of your popes spoke with perfection... priclessly funny and false!

There is documentation of popes contradicting things other popes
said, so your popes can't even get their story straight amongst themselves!

Thanks for the chuckle man... that was great!

BreadOfLife · Feb 4, 2024

Big Boy Johnson said:
Claiming all of your popes spoke with perfection... priclessly funny and false! View attachment 41112

There is documentation of popes contradicting things other popes
said, so your popes can't even get their story straight amongst themselves!

Thanks for the chuckle man... that was great! View attachment 41113

I never made this claim.

I said that NO Pope has ever made an authoritative declaration or teachimg that was contrary to Scripture.
Learn the difference, Einstein . . .

As for one Pope contradicting another – SHOW me the evidence.
One Pope may differ on matters of discipline – but NOT doctrine.

Do your homework, sparky . . .

Big Boy Johnson · Feb 4, 2024

BreadOfLife said:
I said that NO Pope has ever made an authoritative declaration or teachimg that was contrary to Scripture.

If that were true... brutha Einstein... they would have been speaking in perfection!

Claiming Christians should talk to dead saints is not scriptural, twirling those beads isn't scriptural, purgatory isn't scriptural, etc, etc.

Here's on e example... pope Clement XIV suppressed the Jesuits in 1773, but pope Pius VII favored them again in 1814.

Illuminator · Feb 4, 2024

Big Boy Johnson said:
Claiming all of your popes spoke with perfection... priclessly funny and false! View attachment 41112

We agree. We don't confuse impeccability with infallibility.
Isa. 35:8, 54:13-17 – this prophecy refers to the Church as the Holy Way where sons will be taught by God and they will not err. The Church has been given the gift of infallibility when teaching about faith and morals, where her sons are taught directly by God and will not err. This gift of infallibility means that the Church is prevented from teaching error by the power of the Holy Spirit (it does not mean that Church leaders do not sin!)

Acts 9:2; 22:4; 24:14,22 – the early Church is identified as the “Way” prophesied in Isaiah 35:8 where fools will not err therein.

Matt. 10:20; Luke 12:12 – Jesus tells His apostles it is not they who speak, but the Spirit of their Father speaking through them. If the Spirit is the one speaking and leading the Church, the Church cannot err on matters of faith and morals.

Matt. 16:18 – Jesus promises the gates of Hades would never prevail against the Church. This requires that the Church teach infallibly. If the Church did not have the gift of infallibility, the gates of Hades and error would prevail. Also, since the Catholic Church was the only Church that existed up until the Reformation, those who follow faddish anti-Catholic narratives call Christ a liar by saying that Hades did prevail.

Big Boy Johnson said:
There is documentation of popes contradicting things other popes
said, so your popes can't even get their story straight amongst themselves!

If you refuse to document papal contradictions, you should stop lying.

Big Boy Johnson · Feb 4, 2024

Illuminator said:
If you refuse to document papal contradictions, you should stop lying.

Here's on e example... pope Clement XIV suppressed the Jesuits in 1773, but pope Pius VII favored them again in 1814.

It's kinda a moot point since your entire religion follows a different jesus and a different gospel.

Illuminator · Feb 4, 2024

Augustin56 said:
The Catholic Church has never actively discouraged the reading or studying of the Bible except in cases of heretical groups and literature.
Up until recently in history, this would not have been much of an issue. The average person couldn’t read, so there was nothing for the Church to discourage, and until the invention of the printing press, copies of the Bible were relatively rare. In those periods the Church did indeed forbid heretical groups from preaching heterodox interpretations of the Bible and the faithful from attending such gatherings. But that is a far cry from banning the faithful from learning about the Bible.

Once the printing press made copies of the Bible more available, the Church did forbid certain versions that contained heretical translations and commentary. Once again, that is far different from the claim that the Church "forbade" the faithful to read or study the Bible.
The fact that Latin Vulgate version of the Bible was available to Catholics, as were various approved vernacular translations, flies in the face of the accusation that the Church tried to keep the Bible from the faithful. The Catholic Church even produced an English version of the Bible (Douay-Rheims) before the King James Version!

Luther's Protestant Bible came out in 1520 and before his Bible the Catholic Bible had been translated into Spanish, Italian, Danish, French, Norwegian, Polish, Bohemian, Hungarian and English, there was exactly 104 editions in Latin; 38 editions in German language, 25 editions in Italian language, 18 in French. In all 626 editions of the Bible with 198 in the language of the laity, had been edited before the fist Protestant Bible was sent forth into the world.
source
The OP is a pack of lies.

Illuminator · Feb 4, 2024

Big Boy Johnson said:
Here's on e example... pope Clement XIV suppressed the Jesuits in 1773, but pope Pius VII favored them again in 1814.

Internal matters of discipline have nothing to do with formal teaching.

Big Boy Johnson said:
It's kinda a moot point since your entire religion follows a different jesus and a different gospel.

You’re trying to set the Bible against the Church, which is typical Protestant methodology, and ultra-unbiblical. The Bible never does that. The Jerusalem Council plainly shows the infallibility of the Church.

The Bible repeatedly teaches that the Church is indefectible; therefore, the hypothetical of rejecting the (one true, historic) Church, as supposedly going against the Bible, is impossible according to the Bible. It is not a situation that would ever come up, because of God’s promised protection.

What the Bible says is to reject those who cause divisions, which is the very essence of the onset of Protestantism: schism, sectarianism, and division. It is Protestantism that departed from the historic Church, which is indefectible and infallible (see also 1 Tim 3:15).

Right now, my main questions involve Gal. 1:8-9 and the nature of apostolic authority. . . . they underlie all subsequent questions since they determine whether or not all teachings of any church have to be tested against the words of God. Is the church under the authority of God’s words or not?

The one true Church is and always will be in harmony with God’s inspired revelation, the Bible; yes. Thus, we reject any form of Protestantism, because they fail this test. It’s not a matter of one thing being “under” the other. All of that is the invention of the 16th century and the biblically bankrupt and meaningless notion of sola Scriptura. The Bible presents Scripture-Tradition-Church as a “three-legged stool”: the rule of faith. All are in harmony; all work together.

And is any church and any teacher to be rejected who strays from God’s words, as Paul commands? That is the fundamental issue.

Sure; this is why we reject any form of Protestantism, because all fail the test of allegiance to God’s Word in Holy Scripture, and the historical pedigree that the fathers always taught was necessary. Every heretic in the history of the world thumbed their nose at the institutional Church and went by Scripture alone. It is the heretical worldview to do so, precisely because they know they can’t prove that their views were passed down through history in an unbroken succession.

Therefore, heresies and Protestantism either had to play games with history in order to pretend that it fits with their views, or ignore it altogether.

Dialogue With A Calvinist: Was Paul A "Lone Ranger"?

Paul went to see St. Peter in Jerusalem, to be confirmed in his calling (Gal 1:18), & later was commissioned by Peter, James, & John (Gal 2:1-2, 9).

www.patheos.com

Augustin56 · Feb 4, 2024

Big Boy Johnson said:
Here's on e example... pope Clement XIV suppressed the Jesuits in 1773, but pope Pius VII favored them again in 1814.

It's kinda a moot point since your entire religion follows a different jesus and a different gospel.

Hey, BB Johnson! How's it going?

Explain to me, please, how 16 centuries after the Catholic Church had been spreading the Good News, teaching about Christ, never changing a doctrine handed over to her by the Apostles, that somehow Protestantism figured out a different message? You took the same Bible that the Catholic Church used, switched Old Testament versions with zero authority to do so (to avoid doctrines like Purgatory), and claim to be led by the same Holy Spirit, but suddenly coming up with different personal opinions. Did Jesus come back and straighten things out? Or send an angel? How exactly did this change happen, that suddenly, you guys have the truth and we lost it?

Illuminator · Feb 4, 2024

Hey BB,
In Galatians 1-2 Paul is referring to his initial conversion. But even then God made sure there was someone else around, to urge him to get baptized (Ananias: Acts 22:12-16). He received the revelation initially and then sought to have it confirmed by Church authority (Gal 2:1-2); then his authority was accepted or verified by James, Peter, and John (Gal 2:9). So we see that the Bible doesn’t pit the divine call directly from God, against Church authority, as you do. You do it because it is Protestant man-made tradition to do so; period, and because the Protestant has to always undermine the authority of the Church, and the Catholic Church, in order to bolster his own anti-system, that was set up against the historic Church in the first place.

We believe in faith that the Church is infallible and indefectible, based on many biblical indications. It is theoretically possible (speaking in terms of philosophy or epistemology) that the Church could stray and have to be rejected, but the Bible rules that out. We believe in faith that it has not and will not.

Protestants don’t have enough faith to believe that God could preserve an infallible Church, even though they can muster up even more faith than that, which is required to believe in an infallible Bible written by a bunch of sinners and hypocrites.

We simply have more faith than you guys do. It’s a supernatural gift. We believe that the authoritative Church is also a key part of God’s plan to save the souls of men. We follow the model of the Jerusalem Council, whereas you guys reject that or ignore it, because it doesn’t fit in with the man-made tradition of Protestantism and a supposedly non-infallible Church.

Was Bible Possession banned by the Catholic Church

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