Did Jesus claim to be God?

Waiting on him · Feb 20, 2024

Wrangler said:
1. Language Usage. O' is short for OF. OF does not mean IS. "Of" is a preposition, which connects 2 things. "In" is another preposition. If one were to say Fred is "in" the house, it does not mean you are a house ...

No one is denying Jesus is OF God - servant, apostle, priest, lamb, son, word, etc. What belongs to God or comes from God is not God.

Beyond that, I believe the most obvious proof in Scripture that dispels this IDOLATRY is the ubiquitous juxtaposing of "God with "Jesus." For instance, Romans 10:9 says "God raised Jesus from the dead." If Jesus were God, there would not be one single verse that does this - but there are many.

IF such verses invoked "the Father" in each case that would be suggestive. When Scripture invokes the term "God" it means all of God, in his wholeness, in his unitarian nature. This God is apart from Jesus, the subject of the sentence doing the acting. Jesus is the object of the sentence, being acted upon. 2 persons. 2 Beings.

Lebron James was a member OF the Cleveland Cavaliers. This is not construed to mean Lebron "is" the Cleveland Cavaliers. Hillary Clinton was a member OF the Obama Administration. This is not construed to mean Hillary is Obama. Language usage.

2. Facts & Logic

This fact is the type of fact we can have the highest confidence in; it is a demonstrable fact. The most important demonstrable fact in Scripture proving beyond any reasonable doubt that Jesus is not God is that Jesus died.

P1. God is eternal and cannot die. (Isaiah 40:28, 1 Timothy 1:17)
P2. Jesus died.
C. Jesus is not God

What Old Testament reference is Paul using to make this statement in Hebrews?

But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
— Hebrews 1:8

Peterlag · Feb 20, 2024

Waiting on him said:
What Old Testament reference is Paul using to make this statement in Hebrews?

But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
— Hebrews 1:8

We need more than a verse here and a verse there...

If Jesus is God. Then something that big of a subject that is also necessary to understand to be saved would have to be taught all over the Bible. And it is not. The Jews never taught it anywhere in the entire Old Testament nor anyone in the New Testament. The Catholics who invented this nonsense have used only about 8 verses that they have to piece together from statements that are scattered all over the New Testament. Again, one should think if such nonsense was true and important that it would have been taught by someone. Do you understand? Whole chapters teaching it plainly. And it is not. Only in the minds of Catholics who cannot explain it.

Wrangler · Feb 20, 2024

Fred J said:
Are you 'silly' or 'confused

I am correct. Thanks for asking. :vgood:

Wrangler · Feb 20, 2024

JohnD said:
John 1:3 …indicate Jesus is the lone Creator God YHVH the LORD Jehovah.

Extreme Eisegesis. Jesus is not even referred to in John 1:3.

Waiting on him · Feb 20, 2024

Peterlag said:
We need more than a verse here and a verse there...

If Jesus is God. Then something that big of a subject that is also necessary to understand to be saved would have to be taught all over the Bible. And it is not. The Jews never taught it anywhere in the entire Old Testament nor anyone in the New Testament. The Catholics who invented this nonsense have used only about 8 verses that they have to piece together from statements that are scattered all over the New Testament. Again, one should think if such nonsense was true and important that it would have been taught by someone. Do you understand? Whole chapters teaching it plainly. And it is not. Only in the minds of Catholics who cannot explain it.

It was a simple question.. I wasn’t making a statement!

Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre.
Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
— Psalm 45:6-7

Have you considered becoming a JW?

Peterlag · Feb 20, 2024

Waiting on him said:
It was a simple question.. I wasn’t making a statement!

Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre.
Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
— Psalm 45:6-7

Have you considered becoming a JW?

It's just a poor translation of the word God. We need more than a verse here and a verse there to have a compete teaching on such an important subject. And there's none. I know it's sad that we only have copies and also lack the understanding on how they used the word God in their culture. Even other men and kings were called gods.

Waiting on him · Feb 20, 2024

Peterlag said:
It's just a poor translation of the word God. We need more than a verse here and a verse there to have a compete teaching on such an important subject. And there's none. I know it's sad that we only have copies and also lack the understanding on how they used the word God in their culture. Even other men and kings were called gods.

Well, thanks for not admonishing me this time. Maybe your not fit to be a JW, after all.

TheHC · Feb 21, 2024

Ziggy said:
Dad was moved to rehab yesterday. I'll be travelling a lot today to visit with him.
It seems the chaos has passed and we are moving into better days
Hopefully he will be able to come home soon.

Happy for you both. Our relationships are some of the most valuable things in life.

Take care, my cousin.

Aunty Jane · Feb 21, 2024

Waiting on him said:
Well, thanks for not admonishing me this time. Maybe your not fit to be a JW, after all.

What are the back handed comments about? “Not fit to be a JW after all”?

Admonishing those who make incorrect statements or who misunderstand a scripture due to taking it out of its context, is a duty, especially on a public forum. Choices have to be made, but they have to be informed choices or they are worth nothing. Opinions don’t count with God….only truth does.

The scripture you quoted is not God calling Jesus “ho theos”…..the very next verse, which you also quoted says, even in archaic English….. “Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.”

First of all, this is God anointing his son as king of his kingdom, the subject of the statement has a God…..and secondly, God has no “fellows”….Jesus does however because he is not God.

Wrangler · Feb 21, 2024

Aunty Jane said:
What are the back handed comments about? “Not fit to be a JW after all”?

I'm with you, sister.

The nastiness among followers of Christ over manmade doctrine ranks supreme among reasons people are repulsed. He said by our love the world will know us. Yea, about that! Far better to be a Jehovah Witness than an Adverse Witness.

A hostile witness, also known as an adverse witness or an unfavorable witness, is a witness at trial whose testimony on direct examination is either openly antagonistic or appears to be contrary to the legal position of the party who called the witness.

Your love for one another will prove to the world that you are my disciples.
John 13:35

Waiting on him · Feb 21, 2024

Aunty Jane said:
What are the back handed comments about? “Not fit to be a JW after all”?

Admonishing those who make incorrect statements or who misunderstand a scripture due to taking it out of its context, is a duty, especially on a public forum. Choices have to be made, but they have to be informed choices or they are worth nothing. Opinions don’t count with God….only truth does.

The scripture you quoted is not God calling Jesus “ho theos”…..the very next verse, which you also quoted says, even in archaic English….. “Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.”

First of all, this is God anointing his son as king of his kingdom, the subject of the statement has a God…..and secondly, God has no “fellows”….Jesus does however because he is not God.

Waiting on him said:
What Old Testament reference is Paul using to make this statement in Hebrews?

But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
— Hebrews 1:8

This is the question I’d asked @Wrangler in an earlier post, which he never responded to.

Waiting on him said:
It was a simple question.. I wasn’t making a statement!

Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre.
Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
— Psalm 45:6-7

Have you considered becoming a JW?

Waiting on him said:
@Peterlag had given. Below is his response.

Peterlag said:
We need more than a verse here and a verse there...

If Jesus is God. Then something that big of a subject that is also necessary to understand to be saved would have to be taught all over the Bible. And it is not. The Jews never taught it anywhere in the entire Old Testament nor anyone in the New Testament. The Catholics who invented this nonsense have used only about 8 verses that they have to piece together from statements that are scattered all over the New Testament. Again, one should think if such nonsense was true and important that it would have been taught by someone. Do you understand? Whole chapters teaching it plainly. And it is not. Only in the minds of Catholics who cannot explain it.

Where did I make a positional statement as to the topic is Jesus God.

It was simply a question.

The reason I had asked Peter if he’d considered joining your group is because at times he also appears to jump to conclusions about what I believe same as you.

I’ve met many of you at my door in the past. All with the same insufferable attitude that they hold all truth.

Wrangler · Feb 21, 2024

Waiting on him said:
This is the question I’d asked @Wrangler in an earlier post, which he never responded to.

I believe your question was directed to @Peterlag, not me.

If you want my answer, check out post #470.

APAK · Feb 21, 2024

Waiting on him said:
This is the question I’d asked @Wrangler in an earlier post, which he never responded to.

Where did I make a positional statement as to the topic is Jesus God.

It was simply a question.

The reason I had asked Peter if he’d considered joining your group is because at times he also appears to jump to conclusions about what I believe same as you.

I’ve met many of you at my door in the past. All with the same insufferable attitude that they hold all truth.

Copy your post...it's clear

And Peter in Hebrews 1:8-9 did quote the OT scripture of Psalms 45:6-7. It was applicable to David with the direct implications to his descendent, Yahshua, the Christ the anointed one.

I would also like to point out that the translations in Psalms 45:6a and Heb 1:8a ("But to the Son he said, your throne O God is forever and ever..") are poor and ambiguous, and give the distinct impression that the anointed one has his own throne besides his God's throne, and then the deduction by some then means the the anointed one is also God, and that would be nonsense.

The more clearer translations are: “God is your throne for ever and ever.” or "your throne is the throne of God forever and ever" or “Your throne is like God’s throne.” or “Your throne is given of God.”

Another translations says: “The kingdom that God has given you will last forever and ever.” This encapsulates the throne as the Kingdom Of God and is much easier to read, understand and it fits really well into the context of the scripture.

Peterlag · Feb 21, 2024

APAK said:
Copy your post...it's clear

And Peter in Hebrews 1:8-9 did quote the OT scripture of Psalms 45:6-7. It was applicable to David with the direct implications to his descendent, Yahshua, the Christ the anointed one.

I would also like to point out that the translations in Psalms 45:6a and Heb 1:8a ("But to the Son he said, your throne O God is forever and ever..") are poor and ambiguous, and give the distinct impression that the anointed one has his own throne besides his God's throne, and then the deduction by some then means the the anointed one is also God, and that would be nonsense.

The more clearer translations are: “God is your throne for ever and ever.” or "your throne is the throne of God forever and ever" or “Your throne is like God’s throne.” or “Your throne is given of God.”

Another translations says: “The kingdom that God has given you will last forever and ever.” This encapsulates the throne as the Kingdom Of God and is much easier to read, understand and it fits really well into the context of the scripture.

Like I said a few times already. There is no teaching on this subject anywhere in the Bible. These trinity guys are always trying to say "see here's proof" off of a verse. There's no teaching on it. The Catholics who started this nonsense use only about 8 verses that they have to piece together from statements that are scattered all over the New Testament. The Jews never saw it anywhere in the entire Old Testament nor anyone in the New Testament ever taught it.

Waiting on him · Feb 21, 2024

These trinity guys are always trying to say "see here's proof" off of a verse.

I can only assume I’m one of these guys?

Could you direct me to where I’ve proclaimed this, and also explain to me what else I believe?

Waiting on him · Feb 21, 2024

Wrangler said:
I believe your question was directed to @Peterlag, not me.

If you want my answer, check out post #470.

Wrangler said:
1. Language Usage. O' is short for OF. OF does not mean IS. "Of" is a preposition, which connects 2 things. "In" is another preposition. If one were to say Fred is "in" the house, it does not mean you are a house ...

No one is denying Jesus is OF God - servant, apostle, priest, lamb, son, word, etc. What belongs to God or comes from God is not God.

Beyond that, I believe the most obvious proof in Scripture that dispels this IDOLATRY is the ubiquitous juxtaposing of "God with "Jesus." For instance, Romans 10:9 says "God raised Jesus from the dead." If Jesus were God, there would not be one single verse that does this - but there are many.

IF such verses invoked "the Father" in each case that would be suggestive. When Scripture invokes the term "God" it means all of God, in his wholeness, in his unitarian nature. This God is apart from Jesus, the subject of the sentence doing the acting. Jesus is the object of the sentence, being acted upon. 2 persons. 2 Beings.

Lebron James was a member OF the Cleveland Cavaliers. This is not construed to mean Lebron "is" the Cleveland Cavaliers. Hillary Clinton was a member OF the Obama Administration. This is not construed to mean Hillary is Obama. Language usage.

2. Facts & Logic

This fact is the type of fact we can have the highest confidence in; it is a demonstrable fact. The most important demonstrable fact in Scripture proving beyond any reasonable doubt that Jesus is not God is that Jesus died.
P1. God is eternal and cannot die. (Isaiah 40:28, 1 Timothy 1:17)
P2. Jesus died.
C. Jesus is not God
Click to expand...

What Old Testament reference is Paul using to make this statement in Hebrews?

But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
— Hebrews 1:8

Wrangler said:
I believe your question was directed to @Peterlag, not me.

If you want my answer, check out post #470.

Post #501

Wrangler · Feb 21, 2024

Peterlag said:
Like I said a few times already. There is no teaching on this subject anywhere in the Bible. These trinity guys are always trying to say "see here's proof" off of a verse. There's no teaching on it.

Indeed, the more ambiguous the verse, the more they doctrinally invest in it.

A verse says, O God and read into it what they want AS IF they don't know it is an abbreviation for
"OF" God.

Wrangler · Feb 21, 2024

Waiting on him said:
What Old Testament reference is Paul using to make this statement in Hebrews?

But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
— Hebrews 1:8

I cannot believe you are asking - and answering this question - repeatedly. This is because it is a matter of look up reference, not a substantive topic of discussion. Any good translation tells you this. Not sure why you are distracting the conversation with this but I refer you to APAK's answer.

APAK said:
Copy your post...it's clear

And Peter in Hebrews 1:8-9 did quote the OT scripture of Psalms 45:6-7. It was applicable to David with the direct implications to his descendent, Yahshua, the Christ the anointed one.

Aunty Jane · Feb 21, 2024

Waiting on him said:
The reason I had asked Peter if he’d considered joining your group is because at times he also appears to jump to conclusions about what I believe same as you.

Perhaps a more detailed post as to what it is that you do believe would help....we are only guided by your own words. Help us NOT to jump to conclusions.

Waiting on him said:
I’ve met many of you at my door in the past. All with the same insufferable attitude that they hold all truth.

The very fact that we have come to your door in the first place is because Jesus commanded his disciples to take his message out into “the most distant part of the earth”....and our message is about the kingdom of God. (Matt 24:14) It is “good news” to the “few” who listen.....but bad news to “many” (Matt 7:13-14) who emulate the people of Noah’s day, and choose to scorn and ridicule instead of listening. The majority view is never an indication of being right.

Jesus said that his return would be “just as the days of Noah” (Matt 24:37-39) So the work was never going to be an effort to convert the world...but to take the message out to the people and to allow them to decide to listen and act on it....or not. It was not something to be forced. (Matt 10:11-14)

We are in a judgment period and our decisions will determine our eternal destiny. How many listened to Noah?....how many wished they had when it was too late? It wasn’t Noah who closed the door of the ark. Can you imagine the ridiculers banging on the side of the ark saying “we believe you now!” They had their chance and they chose to remain in ignorance. They paid the price.

Jesus said that he would be “with” his disciples in this work, guiding and directing it by means of a “faithful and discreet slave” whom he would appoint in this time of his return, to “feed” his entire household, their “food at the proper time”. (Matt 28:19-20; Matt 24:45)
Who else is out there as a united global brotherhood “doing the will” of the Father at this time of Christ’s return? (Matt 7:21-23)......all preaching one message to a hostile world, descending deeper and deeper into a moral morass and either leaving God completely out of their lives, believing that they are not answerable to the Creator for their ungodly behavior....or “having an appearance of godliness but proving false to it’s power”. (2 Tim 3:1-5)

Very few people in this world have not heard of Jehovah’s Witnesses and few appreciate why we come to their doors, not to annoy them, but to warn them about what is coming, but also to give them the good news that God’s Kingdom is the only hope we have of saving this planet from man’s inhumanity to man due to the influence of its chosen ‘god’ and ruler. (2 Cor 4:3-4)

More and more people are now listening because the world is on a collision course with itself, and they are fearful of what the future holds. (Luke 21:27) It is clear that totalitarian rulership is their only way to gain any control and they have been planning how to implement it for decades. Democracy is yet another failed attempt at man trying to rule himself without God. The coming of God’s Kingdom will solve that problem once and for all. (Daniel 2:44)

If we did not believe that we were sent by God to fulfill his word, (if that is an insufferable attitude) and to act as a search and rescue mission, (as the first Christians were commanded to do) we would be spending our time in selfish pursuits and allowing folk to find their own way to the kingdom.....how is that working out for Christendom? Is that disunited rabble what Jesus created? Has he ever set foot in that disgraceful and disobedient counterfeit up to its neck in politics and it’s resulting bloodshed? What happened to being “no part of the world”? (John 17:16) Christendom’s “friendship with the world” is plain for all to see past and present.....(James 4:4)

God is being removed even in a supposedly prosperous “God fearing” nation like America.....replaced with hopelessness and homelessness for the majority, like most of the rest of the world. This is what happens when you put your trust in men. The rich get richer and the poor get poorer. They need good news now more than ever.

Unity and love is what God’s spirit engenders in his people, who unselfishly devote their time and resources to help as many as possible to hear the truth of the Bible.....but only those whom the Father “draws” will listen. (John 6:44; 65) If only one person responds to the message, it is worth the effort.

GracePeace · Feb 22, 2024

It seems, from one angle, Jesus is the faithful witness about God, telling us what He has seen, and is, in some sense, equal with God (Jn 1:1, Jn 5:18; Php 2:6), yet, not God.

Did Jesus claim to be God?

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