Why Should the Church Endure the Great Trib?

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Trumpeter

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Mar 6, 2013
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veteran said:
A true prophet sent by God would not preach the idea that Christ's Church is going to be removed from this earth. That idea originates from the 1830's doctrines of men by Edward Irving and John Darby, and is called the Secret Rapture, or Pre-Tribulational Rapture.
Greetings veteran,
You are mistaken about the 1830's date.
This doctrine was clearly taught by the early church as evidenced by this quote from Pseudo-Ephraem (c. 374-627)

All the saints and elect of God are gathered together before the tribulation, which is to come, and are taken to the Lord, in order that they may not see at any time the confusion which overwhelms the world because of our sins. -Pseudo-Ephraem (c. 374-627)

Examining an Ancient Pre-Trib Rapture Statement
by Thomas Ice

All the saints and elect of God are gathered together before the tribulation, which is to come, and are taken to the Lord, in order that they may not see at any time the confusion which overwhelms the world because of our sins. -Pseudo-Ephraem (c. 374-627)

Critics of pretribulationism sometimes state that belief in the rapture is a doctrinal development of recent origin. They argue that the doctrine of the rapture or any semblance of it was completely unknown before the early 1800s and the writings of John Nelson Darby. One of the most vocal and sensational critics of the rapture is Dave MacPherson, who argues that, "during the first 18 centuries of the Christian era, believers were never 'Rapture separaters' [sic]; they never separated the minor Rapture aspect of the Second Coming of Christ from the Second Coming itself."1

A second critic, John Bray, also vehemently opposes a pretribulational rapture, writing, "this teaching is not a RECOVERY of truth once taught and then neglected. No, it never was taught-for 1800 years nearly no one knew anything about such a scheme."2 More recently, pre-trib opponent Robert Van Kampen proclaimed, "The pretribulational rapture position with its dual parousias was unheard of in church history prior to 1830."3 In our previous issue of Pre-Trib Perspectives, I noted that pre-wrath advocate Marvin Rosenthal has also joined the chorus.4

Christian reconstructionists have also consistently and almost universally condemned premillennialism and pretribulationism, favoring instead, postmillen-nialism. One sample of their prolific and often vitri-olic opposition can be seen in Gary North's derisive description of the rapture as "the Church's hoped-for Escape Hatch on the world's sinking ship," which he, like MacPherson, believes was invented in 1830.5

How to Find the Rapture in History

Is pretribulationism as theologically bankrupt as its critics profess, or are there answers to these charges? If there are reasonable answers, then the burden of proof and historical argumentation shifts back to the critics. Rapture critics must acknowledge and interact with the historical and theological evidence.

Rapture critic William Bell has formulated three criteria for establishing the validity of a historical citation regarding the rapture. If any of his three criteria are met, then he acknowledges it is "of crucial importance, if found, whether by direct statement or clear inference." As will be seen, the Pseudo-Ephraem sermon meets not one, but two of his canons, namely, "Any mention that Christ's second coming was to consist of more than one phase, separated by an interval of years," and "any mention that Christ was to remove the church from the earth before the tribulation period."6

Pseudo-Ephraem's Rapture Statement

I vividly remember the phone call at my office late one afternoon from Canadian prophecy teacher and writer Grant Jeffrey.7 He told me that he had found an ancient pre-trib rapture statement. I said, "Let's hear it." He read the following to me over the phone:

All the saints and elect of God are gathered together before the tribulation, which is to come, and are taken to the Lord, in order that they may not see at any time the confusion which overwhelms the world because of our sins.

I said that it sure sounds like a pre-trib statement and began to fire at him all the questions I have since received many times when telling others about the statement from Pseudo-Ephraem's sermon On the Last Times, the Antichrist, and the End of the World.8 Grant's phone call started me on journey through many of the substantial libraries throughout the Washington, D.C. area in an effort to learn all I could about this historically significant statement. The more information I acquired led me to conclude that Grant is right to conclude that this is a pre-trib rapture statement of antiquity.

Who is Pseudo-Ephraem?

The word "Pseudo" (Greek for false) is a prefix attached by scholars to the name of a famous historical person or book of the Bible when one writes using that name. Pseudo-Ephraem claims that his sermon was written by Ephraem of Nisibis (306-73), considered to be the greatest figure in the history of the Syrian church. He was well-known for his poetics, rejection of rationalism, and confrontations with the heresies of Marcion, Mani, and the Arians. As a poet, exegete, and theologian, his style was similar to that of the Jewish midrashic and targumic traditions and he favored a contemplative approach to spirituality. So popular were his works that in the fifth and sixth centuries he was adopted by several Christian communities as a spiritual father and role model. His many works, some of doubtful authenticity, were soon translated from Syriac into Greek, Armenian, and Latin.

It is not at all unreasonable to expect that a prolific and prominent figure such as Ephraem would have writings ascribed to him. While there is little support for Ephraem as the author of the Sermon on the End of the World, Caspari and Alexander have demonstrated that Pseudo-Ephraem was "heavily influenced by the genuine works of Ephraem."9 What is more difficult, though secondary to the main purpose of this article, is determining the exact date, purpose, location of, and extent of subsequent editorial changes to the sermon.10

Suggestions on the date of the writing of the original sermon range from as early as Wilhelm Bousset's 373 date,11 to Caspari's estimation of sometime between 565 and 627.12 Paul Alexander, after reviewing all the argumentation, favors a date for the final form similar to that suggested by Caspari,13 but Alexander also states simply, "It will indeed not be easy to decide on the matter."14 All are clear that it had to have been written before the advent of Islam.

Pseudo-Ephraem's Sermon

The sermon consists of just under 1500 words, divided into ten sections and has been preserved in four Latin manuscripts. Three of these date from the eighth century and ascribe the sermon to Ephraem. A fourth manuscript from the ninth century, claims not Ephraem, but Isidore of Seville (d. 636) as author.15 Additionally, there are subsequent Greek and Syriac versions of the sermon which have raised questions regarding the language of the original manuscript. On the basis of lexical analysis and study of the biblical citations within the sermon with Latin, Greek, and Syriac versions of the Bible, Alexander believed it most probable that the homily was composed in Syriac, translated first into Greek, and then into Latin from the Greek.16 Regardless of the original language, the vocabulary and style of the extant copies are consistent with the writings of Ephraem and his era. It appears likely that the sermon was written near the time of Ephraem and underwent slight change during subsequent coping.

What is most significant for present-day readers is the fact that the sermon was popular enough to be translated into several languages fairly soon after its composition. The significance of the sermon for us today is that it represents a prophetic view of a pre-trib rapture within the orthodox circles of its day.

The sermon is built around the three themes of the title On the Last Times, the Antichrist, and the End of the Worldand proceeds chronologically. The fact that the pre-trib statement occurs in section 2, while the antichrist and tribulation are developed throughout the middle sections, followed by Christ's second coming to the earth in the final section supports a pre-trib sequence. This characteristic of the sermon fits the first criteria outlined by William Bell, namely "that Christ's second coming was to consist of more than one phase, separated by an interval of years." Thus, phase one is the rapture statement from section 2; the interval of 3 1/2 years, 42 months, and 1,260 days, said to be the tribulation in sections 7 and 8; the second phase of Christ's return is noted in section 10 and said to take place "when the three and a half years have been completed."17

Why Pseudo-Ephraem's Statement is Pretribulational

After learning of Pseudo-Ephraem's rapture statement, I shared it with a number of colleagues. My favorite approach was to simply read the statement, free of any introductory remarks, and ask what they thought. Every person, whether pre-trib or not, concluded that it was some kind of pre-trib statement. A few thought it was a statement from such pre-trib proponents like John Walvoord orCharles Ryrie. Most noted the clear statement concerning the removal of believers before thetribulation as a reason for thinking the statement pre-trib. This is Bell's second criteria for identifying a pre-trib statement from the past, namely, "any mention that Christ was to remove the church from the earth before the tribulation period." Note the following reasons why this should be taken as a pre-trib statement:

1) Section 2 of the sermon begins with a statement about imminency: "We ought to understand thoroughly therefore, my brothers, what is imminent [Latin "immineat"] or overhanging."18 This is similar to the modern pre-trib view of imminency and considering the subsequent rapture statements supports a pre-trib scenario.

2) As I break down the rapture statement, notice the following observations: "All the saints and elect of God are gathered . . ." Gathered where? A later clause says they "are taken to the Lord." Where is the Lord? Earlier in the paragraph the sermon speaks of "the meeting of the Lord Christ, so that he may draw us from the confusion. . ." Thus the movement is from the earth toward the Lord who is apparently in heaven. Once again, in conformity to a translation scenario found in the pre-trib teaching.

The next phrase says that the gathering takes place "prior to the tribulation that is to come. . ." so we see that the event is pretribulational and the tribulation is future to the time in which Pseudo-Ephraem wrote.

The purpose for the gathering was so that they would not "see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of their sins." Here we have the purpose of the tribulation judgments stated and that was to be a time of judgment upon the world because of their sin, thus, the church was to be taken out.

3) Finally, the Byzantine scholar Paul Alexander clearly believed that Pseudo-Ephraem was teaching what we call today a pre-trib rapture. According to Alexander, most Byzantine apocalypses were concerned with how Christians would survive the time of severe persecution by Antichrist. The normal approach given by other apocalyptic texts was a shortening of the time to three and a half years, enabling the survival of some Christians.19 Unlike those texts, this sermon has Christians being removed from the time of tribulation. Alexander observed:

It is probably no accident that Pseudo-Ephraem does not mention the shortening of the time intervals for the Antichrist's persecution, for if prior to it the Elect are 'taken to the Lord,' i.e., participate at least in some measure in beatitude, there is no need for further mitigating action on their behalf. The Gathering of the Elect according to Pseudo-Ephraem is an alternative to the shortening of the time intervals.20

Conclusion

Regardless of what else the writer of this sermon believed, he did believe that all believers would be removed before the tribulation-a pre-trib rapture view. Thus, we have seen that those who have said that there was no one before 1830 who taught the pre-trib rapture position will have to revise their statements by well over 1,000 years. This statement does not prove the pre-trib position, only the Bible can do that, but it should change many people's historical views on the matter.

ENDNOTES

1 Dave MacPherson, The Great Rapture Hoax (Fletcher, NC: New Puritan Library, 1983), 15. For a refutation of MacPherson's charges see Thomas D. Ice, "Why the Doctrine of the Pretribulational Rapture Did Not Begin with Margaret Macdonald," Bibliotheca Sacra 147 (1990): 155-68.
2 John L. Bray, The Origin of the Pre-Tribulation Rapture Teaching (Lakeland, FL.: John L. Bray Ministry, 1982), 31-32.
3 Robert Van Kampen, The Sign (Wheaton, IL.: Crossway Books, 1992), 445.
4 Thomas Ice, "Is The Pre-Trib Rapture A Satanic Deception?" Pre-Trib Perspectives (II:1; March 1995):1-3.
5 Gary North, Rapture Fever: Why Dispensationalism is Paralyzed (Tyler, TX.: Institute for Christian Economics, 1993), 105.
6 William E. Bell, "A Critical Evaluation of the Pretribulation Rapture Doctrine in Christian Eschatology" (Ph.D. diss., New York University, 1967), 26-27.
7 For more information on the Pseudo-Ephraem statement see Grant R. Jeffrey, Final Warning (Toronto: Frontier Research Publications, 1995). Forthcoming, Timothy Demy and Thomas Ice, "The Rapture and an Early Medieval Citation" Bibliotheca Sacra 152 (July 1995): 300-11. Grant R. Jeffrey, "A Pretribulational Rapture Statement in the Early Medieval Church" in Thomas Ice and Timothy Demy, ed., When the Trumpet Sounds: Today's Foremost Authorities Speak Out on End-Time Controversies (Eugene, Or: Harvest House, 1995).
8 Grant Jeffrey found the statement in Paul J. Alexander, The Byzantine Apocalyptic Tradition, by (Berkeley: University of California Press, 1985), 2.10. The late Alexander found the sermon in C. P. Caspari, ed. Briefe, Abhandlungen und Predigten aus den zwei letzten Jahrhunderten des kirchlichen Altertums und dem Anfang des Mittelaters, (Christiania, 1890), 208-20. This German work also contains Caspari's commentary on the sermon on pages 429-72.
9 Paul J. Alexander, "The Diffusion of Byzantine Apocalypses in the Medieval West and the Beginnings of Joachimism," in Prophecy and Millenarianism: Essays in Honour of Marjorie Reeves, ed. Ann Williams (Essex, U.K. : Longman, 1980), 59.
10 Paul J. Alexander, "Medieval Apocalypses as Historical Sources," American Historical Review 73 (1968): 1017. In this essay Alexander addresses in-depth the historical difficulties facing the interpreter of such texts. To these difficulties, issues of theological interpretation and concern must also be added.
11 W. Bousset, The Antichrist Legend, trans. A. H. Keane (London: Hutchinson and Co., 1896), 33-41. An early date is also accepted by Andrew R. Anderson, Alexander's Gate: Gog and Magog and the Enclosed Nations. Monographs of the Mediaeval Academy of America, no. 5. (Cambridge, MA.: Mediaeval Academy of America, 1932):16-18.
12 Caspari, 437-42.
13 Alexander, Byzantine Apocalyptic Tradition, 147. This leaves the possibility that the work may have been altered or revised prior to the date of the extant manuscripts.
14 Ibid., 145. Earlier, he writes: "All that is certain, is as Caspari pointed out, that it must have been written prior to Heraclius' victories over Sassanid Persia, for the author talks repeatedly of wars between Rome and Persia and such discussions do not make sense after Heraclius' victories and the beginning of the Arab invasions" (144).
15 Ibid., 136-37. The only critical edition is Caspari's which suffers a lack of objectivity in that he relied upon only two of the four extant manuscripts.
16 Ibid., 140-44.
17 Caspari, 219. English citations are taken from a translation of the sermon provided by Cameron
Rhoades, instructor of Latin at Tyndale Theological Seminary, Ft. Worth, TX.
18 Ibid., 210.
19 Alexander, 209.
20 Ibid., 210-11.
 

BLACK SHEEP

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May 24, 2013
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What does it matter who or when the doctrine was first fabricated. It's surprising how many people have fallen for it!

We will endure tribulation.

That no man should be moved by these afflictions: for yourselves know that we are appointed thereunto. For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation; even as it came to pass, and ye know. So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure: [Which is] a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer: Seeing [it is] a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels. In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

I wouldn't believe anything LaHaye and esp. Thomas Ice says. They've both been caught adding and omitting words of other authors to support their false doctrine.

http://www.tribwatch.com/davemac.htm
http://users.stargate.net/~ejt/Pretrib2.htm
http://insight2bp.homestead.com/129.html
 

JB_Reformed Baptist

Many are called but few are chosen.
Feb 23, 2013
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Trekson said:
I believe I can answer this question through God's word. "He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches." I think it's safe to assume that the whole bible is God's message to the church in one way or another via 2 Tim. 3:16 - “All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.” (KJV)

A serious believer in a pre-trib rapture might pose this question: What is the purpose of the rapture, if not to keep us from the tribulation and the wrath to come?

My reply would be that this is the wrong question to ask. As a pre-wrath believer, I agree that the main reason for the rapture is to take us away from God's wrath, which is not for the church according to 1 Thess. 5:9 - “For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.” As stated earlier, I believe His wrath begins at the opening of the seventh seal. I think a better question the church of God should ask themselves is: Why must the church endure the great tribulation?

Let's take a trip down memory lane to the book of Job. You know the story, he was the richest man on earth yet he lost everything, family, house, possessions, etc. Similar to some of the losses we may face as believers in the midst of the great tribulation. He questions God about the unfairness and seeming injustice of all that befell him. Chapters 38-41 record God's answer to Job. But what brought about his calamity in the first place?

Job 1:8-11
- Then the LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil." "Does Job fear God for nothing?" Satan re-plied. "Have you not put a hedge around him and his household and everything he has? You have blessed the work of his hands, so that his flocks and herds are spread throughout the land. But stretch out your hand and strike everything he has, and he will surely curse you to your face." (NIV)

To put it in a nutshell, Satan was testing Job's faith and God allowed it. During the great trib, Satan is again given permission to test our faith and this time he is allowed to harm our bodies and kill some of us! Why? Because now we are in Christ and our enemy; death, has been triumphed over through Jesus Christ.

Why must the church endure the great tribulation?
James 1:2-4 - "
Consider it pure joy, my brothers, when-ever you face trials of many kinds, because you know that the testing of your faith develops perseverance. Perse-verance must finish its work so that you may be mature and complete, not lacking anything." (NIV)

Matt. 13:18-22
- "Listen then to what the parable of the sower means: When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is the seed sown along the path. The one who received the seed that fell on rocky places is the man who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. But since he has no root, he lasts only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, he quickly falls away. The one who received the seed that fell among the thorns is the man who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke it, making it unfruitful. (NIV)

The 70th week will wean out those for whom Christianity is convenient or for those who use it as a means of good social standing. We will be purified as though with fire.

1 Peter 1:5-7
- ..."who through faith are shielded by God's power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time. In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while you may have had to suffer grief in all kinds of trials. These have come so that your faith--of greater worth than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire--may be proved genuine and may result in praise, glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed." (NIV)

We must also remember these words of Peter as well. They are of utmost importance.

1 Peter 4:12-19
- "Dear friends, do not be surprised at the painful trial you are suffering, as though something strange were happening to you. But rejoice that you participate in the sufferings of Christ, so that you may be overjoyed when his glory is revealed. If you are insulted because of the name of Christ, you are blessed, for the Spirit of glory and of God rests on you. If you suffer, it should not be as a murderer or thief or any other kind of criminal, or even as a meddler. However, if you suffer as a Christian, do not be ashamed, but praise God that you bear that name. For it is time for judgment to begin with the family of God; and if it begins with us, what will the outcome be for those who do not obey the gospel of God? And, "If it is hard for the righteous to be saved, what will become of the ungodly and the sinner?" So then, those who suffer according to God's will should commit themselves to their faithful Creator and continue to do good." (NIV)

There are many christians in the world that are suffering this very minute. When the great trib comes among them it will be like "business as usual", but for the other places in the world where christians have become lazy and complacent, it will be a time of severe testing. You may offer up Noah and Lot as examples of people who were rescued from tribulation but keep in mind they did not leave the earth. I offer up Job as an example that God does and will test his people through trials and tribulations, to wean out those who are christians in word only because it has not reached their heart.

A person may believe that God only does things involving christians for a purpose! His purpose in allowing christians to go through some of the 70th week is to provide a vast witness for Him. Some scholars believe the 144,000 of Rev. 7 fulfill that purpose but I disagree. They are sealed and protected and if they did witness (which scripture never says they do), just preaching the word will not be enough. The world has been preached to for millennia. What greater testimony can God have then people who are willing to lay down their lives for their Lord and Savior, The 144,000 will never become martyrs but as God is ending the world as we know it, in a final time of wrath, I think it only logical that prior to His wrath, God will show the world through the greater witness of martyrdom and other efforts of the church that He is real and that His Son Jesus is Lord of All!

However, not all will be martyrs! Some of us will just give up our luxuries and the simple things like a roof over our head and food in our stomach because we will refuse to accept the mark of the beast that will allow us those simples pleasures. Our faith will be in God to provide for us and He will!! Our insanity (from the world's point of view) will hit the news media big time. We will be talked about all over the world, our opportunity to witness will be sure. Some will fail, but hopefully, most of us won't and when judgment day comes for those who witness our seeming insanity because of our faith, it is our job to make sure they won't have an excuse when they stand before God! One final thought. When the church is persecuted and going through hard times, the power of the Holy Spirit is made more manifest and miracles will be witnessed around the world as well. So then it can be truly stated, "When the gates of hell came down to earth, they did not prevail against us!!" Something that could not be said if we were raptured prior to the 70th week!

A little about the timing of the great tribulation

Let’s see if we can narrow down the timing of the great trib. Matt. 24:21 - “For then shall be great tribulation…” This means that the great trib. happens after the events of vs. 4-20, including vs. 15, which has the abomination of desolation, which we know is at the midpoint of the 70th week. Now what does the following vs. 22 say, “...for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened“. This ties in the fact that the great trib. is affecting believers, not the world in general.

Mark 13:19 & 20 echoes this exact order, but uses the term affliction. Luke 21:22 does as well, using the term vengeance and shows in vs. 28, "And when all these things begin to come to pass, (everything mentioned in the previous verses) then look up, and lift up your heads, for your redemption draweth nigh." (KJV) (words in parenthesis mine) This great tribulation upon believers is the result of Satan's wrath as pictured in Rev. 12:17 - “Then the dragon was enraged at the woman (believing Israel) and went off to make war against the rest of her offspring—those who obey God's commandments and hold to the testimony of Jesus (the church).” (NIV)

Here’s a theory I developed on why the new testament writers seemed to believe Christ’s return was imminent. Paul and other bible authors, in their writings, wrote as if Christ would return in their lifetime. (1 Thess. 4:15, note the word we) Now with that in mind read 1 Thess. 3: 3&4, "That no man should be moved by these afflictions: for yourselves know that we are appointed thereunto. For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation; even as it came to pass and ye know." (KJV)

I believe that Paul felt they were at the beginning of sorrows point (the first 3 1/2 yr. segment) of Daniel's 70th week and his followers did as well, hence the need for Paul to reassure them that that day (rapture/resurrection) would not occur until after the man of lawlessness is revealed at the mid-point of the 70th week when the a/c sits on the throne and declares himself God and sets up the abomination of desolation.

There is one main reason why Paul and the early church thought Christ would return in their lifetime and that is because many of the signs that He told them about in the Olivet Discourse seemed to be happening. There was a great famine in the Jerusalem area, earthquakes had happened in diverse areas, Christians were being put to death and jailed because of their beliefs, and Jerusalem was soon to be under the Roman siege of A.D. 70. Paul in the next verse, describes how we’ll know when that event will occur, which we know takes place at the mid point of Daniel's 70th week.

Now we come to Rev. 7:9. This great multitude suddenly appears in heaven. They are identified in vs. 14 as "they which came out of great tribulation." Again confirming the great trib is upon believers and not the world in general. You have to go with the flow of all the scriptures, not just a select few. Nowhere in scripture does it say that tribulation or great tribulation will last seven years. Logically, there is only one conclusion and that is this multitude represents the rapture.

If it is not the rapture, then this also develops a couple of problems for the pre-trib rapture theory. One, is that there must be a second rapture that brings these folks to heaven at the same time before the conclusion of the rest of Revelations, which is not alluded to anywhere in scripture.

The other is, you can't have both a great apostasy and a great revival happening at the same time. Pre-trib rapturists believe that as a result of missing the rapture there will be a great revival that will sweep across the world but scripture never speaks of this.

The scriptures do tell us that there will be a great falling away. 2 Thess. 2:3 - Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition…“ (KJV) This is called the apostasy from the Greek word “apostasia“. My dictionary defines apostasy as, “the abandonment of a former allegiance as in turning away from one’s religious faith. This apostasy will be the result of many believers who feel that they have been misled or lied to by their pastors because they haven’t been raptured or rescued from these hard times as they had always been taught. They will begin to doubt all the other teachings and in the midst of trials and tribulations will fall away from the truth as the parable of the sower explains to us in Matt. 4.

Paul also says in 2 Thess. 2:11&12 - God will send a delusion so that mankind will believe the lie, that they might be damned who believed not the truth” (NIV).

This theory of a second chance for a separate group of tribulation saints is not scriptural, especially a multi-national group so large they can't be numbered.

To conclude, the Great Tribulation is upon believers as explained in 1 Peter 1:5-7, "Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.” (the real meaning of Rev. 3:10) In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, you may have had to suffer grief in all kinds of trials. These have come so that your faith-of greater worth then gold, which perishes even though refined by fire-may be proved genuine and may result in praise, glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed." (KJV)

This fact is also the basis of the wheat and tares parable. We will be sifted together and only the true spotless body of Christ will emerge from the great tribulation "...having washed our robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb." (Rev. 7:14 NIV)


Interesting take & succinctly stated, SHALOM! :)
 

iamlamad

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Jun 9, 2013
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Of course we endure tribulation! No one has ever denied that. But what we must learn is the INTENT of the Author, the Holy Spirit, in the various scriptures quoted frequently here. Obviously, all cannot be right on these verses, as each sees the verses saying something different.

Paul was the ONLY writer of the New Testament to receive the revelation of the Rapture. And when he wrote about it, he declared it was a MYSTERY up to that time. Of course no longer a mystery because Paul revealed it in his letter. If we just use a little common sense, how could anything Jesus said, have been about the rapture, if Paul declared it a mystery? If Jesus revealed the rapture, it would no longer be a mystery when Paul wrote. I am not speaking of the dating of the writing of the gospels, but of the dating of Jesus speaking, around 30-32 AD. Paul wrote 1 Thes. around 50 to 60 AD. Therefore, we can know that the gathering written in Matthew 24 is not about the rapture of the church. If it was, then Paul could not have written, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, "Behold, I show you a MYSTERY, we shall not all sleep....." and the dead in christ will rise first, then we who are alive and remain will be caught up.....This Pauline rapture was a MYSTERY until Paul wrote it.

If we study 1 Thes, 4 & 5 closely, Paul tells us that the rapture is the trigger for the day of the Lord, making the rapture and the day of the Lord back to back events. We can thank Rosenthal and Van Kampen for making this so clear. Read chapter 5 closely, and you see Paul did not change the subject, but gives us the timing of the rapture; it comes just before the day of the Lord, as the trigger for the Day.

So, moving to the book of Revelation, WHERE is the Day of the Lord, or where does it begin? It is not difficult to find. The last verse in chapter 6 speaks of the start of the wrath of God, which is the start of the DAY. But His wrath cannot start there. That is only the warning that His wrath is imminent. Chapter 7 gives us two events that MUST be accomplished before the wrath of God can begin: the rapture of the church and the sealing of the 144,000.

Here is where many MISS the intent of the Author. John has not yet even begun the 70th week, nor has he arrived at the midpoint of the week. In his narrative: the midpoint is in chapter 11, and the Beast is not revealed until then. Please note, John is introduced to the beast in chapter 13. How then can anyone even think that the days of great tribulation have happened somewhere before chapter 7? That is rearranging John's God given chronology, a BIG NO NO! There is no need to rearrange the book to fit a theory! Wise men form their theory from the chronology given. John's book makes perfect sense in the order it is written. The 70th week begins with the 7th seal; the 7th trumpet marks the exact midpoint; and the 7th vial ends it. The days of GT will begin seconds after the 7th trumpet (notice where the fleeing begins: 12:6) and will continue all the way to where the vials have begun, chapter 16.

So where we see the rapture in chapter 7, the intent of the author is NOT that this huge group that no man could number came out of the last half of the 70th week. No, because John as not even started the week yet. The truth is, these two words together, "geat tribulation" do not always mean those days following the abomination. All John is telling us is that at the time of the rapture, people we be being put to death for their testimony around the world. tribulation cannot be greater for an individual than being put to death - they cannot be killed twice - so for them it was great tribulation.

So Paul and John BOTH teach a pretrib rapture of the church. What others taught anytime between when Paul wrote and today is not significant. What is significant is what the Word of God says, when interpreted correctly. lamad
 

BLACK SHEEP

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It's a sad day when people have to alter the timing of the Day of the Lord to fit their eschatology.

There's not one shred of evidence that the Day of the Lord begins at Revelation 6.
Because Jesus said in Mt. 24 that the gathering occurs at the end of tribulation, you people who claim correct interpretation of God's Word, had to fabricate another rapture to avoid scriptural contradiction. The Day of the Lord has been perverted by pre-tribulatuionist to fit their already distorted view of God's Word.

This verse declares that we will suffer tribulation until Christ returns. But you've missed it....

..., that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer: Seeing [it is] a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels. In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
 

iamlamad

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BLACK SHEEP said:
It's a sad day when people have to alter the timing of the Day of the Lord to fit their eschatology.

There's not one shred of evidence that the Day of the Lord begins at Revelation 6.
Because Jesus said in Mt. 24 that the gathering occurs at the end of tribulation, you people who claim correct interpretation of God's Word, had to fabricate another rapture to avoid scriptural contradiction. The Day of the Lord has been perverted by pre-tribulatuionist to fit their already distorted view of God's Word.

This verse declares that we will suffer tribulation until Christ returns. But you've missed it....

..., that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer: Seeing [it is] a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels. In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
Ha. Black sheep, the really sad thing is that when the truth is shown, it is not recognized. Please, let me help:

Rev. 6 17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

I did not say it, JOHN said it. This is not just a shread, it is the word of God in plain English. But His wrath actually begins with the first trumpet judgment. It is a JUDGMENT of fire.

Ha ha! This is too funny! Can anyone imagine the rapture gathers people from HEAVEN? We pretrib believers know the REAL pretrib rapture will gather first the dead in Christ FROM EARTH, then those alive and remain from THE EARTH.

Mat. 24
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Why would ANYONE think the rapture gathers people from heaven?

" recompense tribulation to them that trouble you"

Who is the THEM and who is the you? The "tribulation" in this verse is for THEM, not us!

OF COURSE Christians suffer tribulation - we are living in the devil's world....but did you never read? Because He triumphed:

Colossians 2:15
And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

WE TRIUMPH!

2 Corinthians 2:14
Now thanks be unto God, which always causeth us to triumph in Christ, and maketh manifest the savour of his knowledge by us in every place.

This verse in no way says Christians will suffer the wrath of God. Why is this such a difficult thing for people to understand?

Romans 5:9
Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

1 Thessalonians 1:10
And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

1 Thessalonians 5:9
For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

I am convinced, anyone who wishes to make their OWN appointment with God's wrath certainly can, and I believe God will honor their will and their wish. I will NOT make my own appointment. God planned an escape, and I am going to take it.

Luke 21:36
Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

WHEN will Jesus take vengence with flaming fire? When will He be revealed? Of course, when He descends on the white horse, and "ëvery eye will see Him."

Where will the Bride be? If believers are watching for His coming in the clouds and in the air, they will be WITH HIM, enjoying their REST. For those that wish to make their OWN appointment with wrath, they will probably be dead, having lost their head to the Beast. After all, God has said twice that the Beast will OVERCOME them.

Believers, the bible is clear, Jesus is coming PRETRIB (before the Day of the Lord and before the 70th week) for the catching up of the Bride. We must be WATCHING. Readers, are you looking for
His coming, or are you expecting to see the Beast first?

Heb. 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation

Are you LOOKING?

lamad
 

John S

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The ELECT consists of 144,000 members of the House of Israel - 12,000 first born males who never lie and who have never had sexual relations. It does NOT consist of every Tom, Dick, and Harry who thinks that he or she is going to be whisked away.
I'm Sorry that you have already been deceived - but Jesus said that many will be.
 

iamlamad

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John S said:
The ELECT consists of 144,000 members of the House of Israel - 12,000 first born males who never lie and who have never had sexual relations. It does NOT consist of every Tom, Dick, and Harry who thinks that he or she is going to be whisked away.
I'm Sorry that you have already been deceived - but Jesus said that many will be.
How strange, I cannot find the word "elect" in either the KJV or the New KJV concerning the 144,000. I agree they are Jewish men.
But if you are referring to the gathering in Matt. 24, I think you need to look further. Lamad
 

John S

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I NEVER said that the Elect consisted of 144,000 Jewish men. I SAID that it is made up of 144,000 men from the House of Israel.
It will consist of 12,000 Jews from the Tribe of Judah. The rest will be Christians.
Most people believe that the Elect will be all Jewish. That is NOT correct.The House of Israel is presently scattered throughout the planet since they were exiled from their homeland by the Assyrians.
As Jacob prophecized in Genesis 49, the Tribe of Judah would be the ONLY Tribe to maintain it's identity. None of the others would,
 

BLACK SHEEP

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In response to Lamad,

Ha. Black sheep, the really sad thing is that when the truth is shown, it is not recognized. Please, let me help:
 
Like big Andy would say, "OK OK"

Rev. 6 17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
I did not say it, JOHN said it. This is not just a shread, it is the word of God in plain English. But His wrath actually begins with the first trumpet judgment. It is a JUDGMENT of fire.
Take a look at the whole picture and get the rapture out of you head for a moment.

First this takes place...
...there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

People have historically believed that God's wrath was displayed in natural disasters. If it were an apostle, man of God, or an angel that said, "For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?" Then I would indeed believe it to be so. However, this may or may not be "God's wrath." And even if it is God's wrath it doesn't mean that it's the day of the Lord. ( I think God's wrath begins at the vials)

I say the tribulation is Satan's wrath since God uses Satan and the man of sin as His rod of iron or "battle axe." In most (if not all) verses in Revelation where it is said that God's wrath is come it is said so by the heathen.

Who is it that say's, "For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?" The problem is that that is the perception of these people...
....the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

Even if it is God's wrath in Rev. 6:2 it doesn't mean that this is the Day of the Lord.

The blood red moon indicates that this is the beginning of tribulation. But in Joel 3:15 the Day of the Lord is mentioned as having a darkened moon, (not a blood red one) The darkened moon is also associated with the Day of the Lord. In other words. The wrath mentioned in Rev. 6:17 which has a blood red moon can't be the day of the Lord since Joel 3:15 mentions a darkened moon at the Day of the Lord.

Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the Lord is near in the valley of decision. The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining.

When the earthquake and celestial event of Rev.6 happens, that will be the beginning of polluting the earth's atmosphere and the moon will appear red. As we progress through the tribulation, there will even more junk emitted into the atmosphere and the moon will eventually not give her light at all. The darkened moon at the end of tribulation is associated with the day of the Lord. Not the blood red moon!
Bottom line...
Rev. 6:17 isn't the Day of the Lord.
Also....
Where does it say that a rapture happens at the day of his wrath?
Ha ha! This is too funny! Can anyone imagine the rapture gathers people from HEAVEN? We pretrib believers know the REAL pretrib rapture will gather first the dead in Christ FROM EARTH, then those alive and remain from THE EARTH.
Mat. 24
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Why would ANYONE think the rapture gathers people from heaven?
Who say's we go to heaven when we die? OH! It's you! It's clear to me that we go to paradise to await the resurrection and our glorified bodies. There's not one verse in the bible that say's we go to heaven when we die. And sadly enough, these are the people you are listening to about the rapture too.
 
" recompense tribulation to them that trouble you"
Who is the THEM and who is the you? The "tribulation" in this verse is for THEM, not us!
OF COURSE Christians suffer tribulation - we are living in the devil's world....but did you never read? Because He triumphed:
Nothing like cutting out a portion of scripture to support your fictitious theory. Look at the verse again...

...that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer: Seeing [it is] a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels. In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

This verse is saying that we would suffer tribulation right up to the time "when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven."

You quoted a bunch of verses that have nothing to do with the rapture. Tom Ice and his rabid clan would like you to believe they do.
Here are a couple of real blunders on their part. It makes me wonder how people with doctorates can misinterpret such simple verses.

You quote,
1 Thessalonians 1:10
And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.
You should look at the context. That means at least looking at a few verses before and after the one you quote.

9 For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God;
10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

Paul isn't saying that a rapture is what delivers you from the wrath to come. Paul is saying that those who turned from idol worship "to serve the living and true God;" are delivered from the wrath to come. The "wrath to come" isn't a tribulational wrath but the judgmental wrath of God.
You quote,
1 Thessalonians 5:9
For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
How simple can this be? We are not appointed to wrath because of what??? By salvation of the cross of Jesus Christ! NOT A RAPTURE!!

The wrath Paul is speaking of is the wrath that is averted by Christ through repentance. NOT A RAPTURE!

It's the same "wrath to come mentioned here...

But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

Maybe this verse will help you see this too...
And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: (WRATH)
 
We must be WATCHING. Readers, are you looking for His coming, or are you expecting to see the Beast first?
Heb. 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation
Are you LOOKING?
 
 
 
Maybe you should be looking at God's Word a little harder.

God's Word is clear. The beast comes before a rapture...

King James Version (KJV)
2 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
 
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iamlamad

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ENOCH2010 said:
Lamad which resurrection will the rapture join in the air ?
The rapture will follow the very same resurrection that Jesus was the first fruits of. Firstfruits always means there will be a main harvest. You can see the raptured church in Rev. 7 as John wrote about what he saw. Lamad

BLACK SHEEP said:
Take a look at the whole picture and get the rapture out of you head for a moment.

First this takes place...
...there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

People have historically believed that God's wrath was displayed in natural disasters. If it were an apostle, man of God, or an angel that said, "For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?" Then I would indeed believe it to be so. However, this may or may not be "God's wrath." And even if it is God's wrath it doesn't mean that it's the day of the Lord. ( I think God's wrath begins at the vials)

I say the tribulation is Satan's wrath since God uses Satan and the man of sin as His rod of iron or "battle axe." In most (if not all) verses in Revelation where it is said that God's wrath is come it is said so by the heathen.

Who is it that say's, "For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?" The problem is that that is the perception of these people...
....the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

Even if it is God's wrath in Rev. 6:2 it doesn't mean that this is the Day of the Lord.

The blood red moon indicates that this is the beginning of tribulation. But in Joel 3:15 the Day of the Lord is mentioned as having a darkened moon, (not a blood red one) The darkened moon is also associated with the Day of the Lord. In other words. The wrath mentioned in Rev. 6:17 which has a blood red moon can't be the day of the Lord since Joel 3:15 mentions a darkened moon at the Day of the Lord.

Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the Lord is near in the valley of decision. The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining.

When the earthquake and celestial event of Rev.6 happens, that will be the beginning of polluting the earth's atmosphere and the moon will appear red. As we progress through the tribulation, there will even more junk emitted into the atmosphere and the moon will eventually not give her light at all. The darkened moon at the end of tribulation is associated with the day of the Lord. Not the blood red moon!
Bottom line...
Rev. 6:17 isn't the Day of the Lord.
Also....
Where does it say that a rapture happens at the day of his wrath?
Who say's we go to heaven when we die? OH! It's you! It's clear to me that we go to paradise to await the resurrection and our glorified bodies. There's not one verse in the bible that say's we go to heaven when we die. And sadly enough, these are the people you are listening to about the rapture too.
 
Nothing like cutting out a portion of scripture to support your fictitious theory. Look at the verse again...

...that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer: Seeing [it is] a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels. In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

This verse is saying that we would suffer tribulation right up to the time "when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven."

You quoted a bunch of verses that have nothing to do with the rapture. Tom Ice and his rabid clan would like you to believe they do.
Here are a couple of real blunders on their part. It makes me wonder how people with doctorates can misinterpret such simple verses.

You quote,

You should look at the context. That means at least looking at a few verses before and after the one you quote.

9 For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God;
10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

Paul isn't saying that a rapture is what delivers you from the wrath to come. Paul is saying that those who turned from idol worship "to serve the living and true God;" are delivered from the wrath to come. The "wrath to come" isn't a tribulational wrath but the judgmental wrath of God.
You quote,
How simple can this be? We are not appointed to wrath because of what??? By salvation of the cross of Jesus Christ! NOT A RAPTURE!!

The wrath Paul is speaking of is the wrath that is averted by Christ through repentance. NOT A RAPTURE!

It's the same "wrath to come mentioned here...

But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

Maybe this verse will help you see this too...
And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: (WRATH)
 

 
 
 
Maybe you should be looking at God's Word a little harder.

God's Word is clear. The beast comes before a rapture...

King James Version (KJV)
2 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
"I say the tribulation is Satan's wrath"

That is only PART of what makes the 70th week "tribulation" and the second half days of "great tribulation." What is GOD doing during this same period of time? In the first half of the week, the 7 trumpets sound: these are judgments of God. They are going to affect the saints as well as the lost. Without a doubt, many saints will die when 1/3 of the population is killed.

It is all the people, from kings on down that is saying the day of His wrath or the Day of the Lord has come. Now WHY would they say that? Did you never read?

Isa 2

10 Enter into the rock, and hide in the dust, From the terror of the Lord And the glory of His majesty.
11 The lofty looks of man shall be humbled, The haughtiness of men shall be bowed down, And the Lord alone shall be exalted in that day.


12 For the day of the Lord of hosts Shall come upon everything proud and lofty, Upon everything lifted up—And it shall be brought low—
17...The Lord alone will be exalted in that day,



19 They shall go into the holes of the rocks, And into the caves of the earth, From the terror of the Lord And the glory of His majesty, When He arises to shake the earth mightily.


,
21 To go into the clefts of the rocks, And into the crags of the rugged rocks, From the terror of the Lord
And the glory of His majesty, When He arises to shake the earth mightily.



Joel 2
30 “And I will show wonders in the heavens and in the earth: Blood and fire and pillars of smoke.
31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, And the moon into blood, Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the Lord.

Hmmm. There can be no doubt, these people were RIGHT! These signs they just saw were the fulfilling of these prophsecies of Isa. and Joel. IT seems very likely, some of these people mentioned with be SAINTS. You have missed something, there are TWO TIMES there will be signs in the sun and moon. The first time is shown in Joel 2 as the signs to warn of the Day of the Lord. Then again as shown in Joel 3 as a warning of the coming of the Lord as shown in Rev. 19, coming on the white horse. But there is a difference in the two signs.

"The blood red moon indicates that this is the beginning of tribulation." Please show us a scripture proving this statement?

"The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining."

Matthew 24
29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

This sign, as we both agree, is different that the Joel 2 prophecy. This one is to warn of Jesus coming, NOT the coming of the Day.

"The darkened moon at the end of tribulation is associated with the day of the Lord." You are disagreeing with Joel 2 and Rev. 6. But please keep in mind, on the day Jesus comes on the white horse, it will be IN the day of the Lord, for that day will have begun about 7 years previous. These signs are shown twice, but only once IN the day of the Lord. Joel 2 will be the warning FOR the day of the Lord.

"Even if it is God's wrath in Rev. 6:2 it doesn't mean that this is the Day of the Lord. "

Did you never read?

Isaiah 13:9
Behold, the day of the Lord comes, Cruel, with both wrath and fierce anger, To lay the land desolate; And He will destroy its sinners from it.


Zephaniah 1:14-15
14 The great day of the Lord is near; It is near and hastens quickly. The noise of the day of the Lord is bitter;
There the mighty men shall cry out.That day is a day of wrath, A day of trouble and distress, A day of devastation and desolation, A day of darkness and gloominess, A day of clouds and thick darkness,


"Rev. 6:17 isn't the Day of the Lord." No, it is the WARNING that the Day of the Lord is imminent. It begins with the 7th seal and the first trumpet judgment.

"Where does it say that a rapture happens at the day of his wrath?" One must understand John's chronology to understand this. If you read the 5th seal, there is a hint there, a STRONG hint of the timing of the rapture: can you find it? WHERE is the great crowd in heaven seen in Revelation? It is just before the 7th seals that officially opens the week, and the 1st trumpet that is the start of God's wrath.

"Who say's we go to heaven when we die?" Did you never read Paul? He said to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. The bible is clear on where God is; the Father is sitting on the throne in heaven, and Jesus is at His right hand. I guess you did NOT read this. : -((

"And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels."
This verse is saying that we would suffer tribulation right up to the time "when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven."

Is it really? I don't read it that way.

Holman Christian Standard Bible (©2009)
and to reward with rest you who are afflicted, along with us. This will take place at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with His powerful angels,

Weymouth New Testament
and to requite with rest you who are suffering affliction now--rest with us at the re-appearing of the Lord Jesus from Heaven, attended by His mighty angels.

The first writers did not get this rest that comes from being in heaven or being with Jesus. In fact, believers today are still waiting for this rest. This is pointed more to US in this terminal generation. They had trouble then, and we have trouble now. And those that are left behind will have FAR WORSE trouble. I don't know about you, but I am goingto escape all these things and get my rest in heaven, while those left behind suffer here wishing they had rest.

1 Thes 1:8 The Lord’s message rang out from you not only in Macedonia and Achaia—your faith in God has become known everywhere. Therefore we do not need to say anything about it, 9 for they themselves report what kind of reception you gave us. They tell how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, 10 and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead—Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath.

Who is the US here? It is Paul and all the other believers. These particular believers used to be worshipping idols, but they turned from their idols to worship the true and living God - the VERY GOD who will come and rescue us (all believing Chrisians) from the coming wrath.

I feel a little sorry for those that choose to disagree with Paul, but this is Paul writing under the inspiration of the Holy spirit, so this is GOD speaking: HE IS THE ONE who will rescue His bride from the coming wrath. Are we not waiting? The church has been waiting for this glorious pretrib rapture for almost 2000 years now. I don't think we have long to wait. What wrath is this? It is the "wrath to come." What wrath is coming? The wrath of the Lord during the Day of the Lord plus the wrath of Satan who will separate millions of believers from their heads.

This is the wrath God is speaking of:

Romans 2:5
But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed.

Romans 2:8
But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.

Romans 5:9
Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him!

Romans 9:22
What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction?

Right now God has great patience - waiting for His harvest, but soon it will be the day of Wrath.

Colossians 3:6
Because of these, the wrath of God is coming.

Revelation 11:18 The nations were angry, and your wrath has come.

But notice this verse:

1 Thessalonians 5:9
For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.

God has set NO APPOINTMENT for us in God's wrath. Why then do you insist on making your OWN appointment?





King James Version (KJV)
2 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

You need to read it in this version:

William Tyndale:

3 Let no ma deceave you by eny meanes for the lorde commeth not excepte
ther come a departynge fyrst and that that synfnll man be opened ye sonne
of perdicion
Geneva Bible
Let no man deceiue you by any meanes: for that day shall not come, except there come a departing first, and that that man of sinne be disclosed, euen the sonne of perdition,

Sorry, but the KJV did disgrace to this verse. Paul was not speaking of a falling away (from something not mentioned) but of a CATCHING AWAY. After all, what is the THEME of this passage, is it not the gathering together of the believers? Does not a departure of the bride constitute something being "taken out of the way?"OF course it does.

Lamad
 

TWC

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iamlamad said:
King James Version (KJV)
2 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

You need to read it in this version:

William Tyndale:

3 Let no ma deceave you by eny meanes for the lorde commeth not excepte
ther come a departynge fyrst and that that synfnll man be opened ye sonne
of perdicion
Geneva Bible
Let no man deceiue you by any meanes: for that day shall not come, except there come a departing first, and that that man of sinne be disclosed, euen the sonne of perdition,

Sorry, but the KJV did disgrace to this verse. Paul was not speaking of a falling away (from something not mentioned) but of a CATCHING AWAY. After all, what is the THEME of this passage, is it not the gathering together of the believers? Does not a departure of the bride constitute something being "taken out of the way?"OF course it does.

Lamad
The word in question is "apostasia" and is found twice in the New Testament. The other instance is Acts 21:21 and there's no question what the word means. Neither passage has anything to do with a pre-tribulation rapture.

This is the wrath God is speaking of:

Romans 2:5
But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed.

Romans 2:8
But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.

Romans 5:9
Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him!

Romans 9:22
What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction?

Right now God has great patience - waiting for His harvest, but soon it will be the day of Wrath.

Colossians 3:6
Because of these, the wrath of God is coming.

Revelation 11:18 The nations were angry, and your wrath has come.

But notice this verse:

1 Thessalonians 5:9
For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.

God has set NO APPOINTMENT for us in God's wrath. Why then do you insist on making your OWN appointment?
The great day of wrath occurs after the tribulation, but I'm sure you already know that.
 

John S

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The Great Day of Wrath happens near the END of the Tribulation, which then brings about the return of Jesus Christ and the Millenium - 1000 years without Satan.
Any Rapture will be then, which would make it Post Trib.
 

Trumpeter

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Retrobyter said:
Shalom, aspen2.


"The Entire Known World was converted to Christianity"??!!! Talk about delusion! They may have "converted" because it was the "in" thing to do when Constantine "converted," but they were HARDLY truly converted to Christianity!



Shalom, Trumpeter.


I don't know who the author of "The Cup of the Wrath of My Fury Is Come To the Full," but he's starting to make me mad, as are you for quoting him! This drivel doesn't even come CLOSE to the words of YHWH, the God of the Bible! God is NOT going the "DESTROY all these kingdoms of men"! They are the Messiah's INHERITANCE!!! Don't think to speak for God. He can do JUST FINE without your help! And, His name is NOT "Yahuwah!" Where'd you come up with that mix-up?
It must be done! The wrath of God must be poured out, the cleansing fire must rage!... Until every last vestige of man’s invention is gone from the earth! Until every last stronghold of evil is broken down and utterly destroyed! Until every last hint of sin is cleansed from this place!... FOR I AM HOLY! The only God whose name is One!
Though it greatly pains My heart, a wound which shall last forever... Yet if I do not do this, My people shall never have a name, they shall never dwell in My holy place, they shall never see The Light or know life as it was in the beginning. Until the sanctuary is cleansed I can not dwell with My people, both with them and in them. Unless I make a full end, there can be no restoration. If I do not complete My task, never again shall I walk with My beloved in the garden, never again shall the little children come to Me and gather around.


Open your eyes! Cast yourselves down!
Let your hearts melt before The Holy Fire!...

Embrace My Purifying Flame.
My dying children! YOU ARE THE LAST GENERATION!...
The last of these kingdoms of men.

Excerpt from:
Generation’s End
http://trumpetcallofgodonline.com/index.php5?title=Generation’s_End

Rev 11:15 Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdoms of this world have become [the kingdoms] of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!"

Retrobyter said:
Shalom, Trumpeter.


And, His name is NOT "Yahuwah!" Where'd you come up with that mix-up?
What of who God is? He is the Creator of the universe, of which the very thought is far beyond the grasp of humans. What are we that He is even mindful of us? Let us give thanks, without ceasing, for the love of God. What is His name? His name is the Great I AM, Jehovah, The Only God, The Most High, Yahweh, ADONAI, Elohim, YaHuWaH (YHWH) - Being interpreted: “I am who I am” , “I shall be what I shall be”, "The One who causes to be". God, Jehovah, Yahweh - these names were given to, and made by men, so we might speak of Him in a way others might understand.
 

iamlamad

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TWC said:
The word in question is "apostasia" and is found twice in the New Testament. The other instance is Acts 21:21 and there's no question what the word means. Neither passage has anything to do with a pre-tribulation rapture.


The great day of wrath occurs after the tribulation, but I'm sure you already know that.
No, I don't know that. In fact, neither did Paul or John know that, because it is simply not true and not according to what is written,
The great day of His wrath is speaking of the much prophecied Day of the Lord that many prophets of the Old Testament spoke about. It is an extended period of time, not just one 24 hour period. A careful study of the Word will prove that God's wrath BEGINS with the first trumpet judgment (comes soon after the 6th seal warning of His wrath) and continues on through much of the book of Revelation.

As for the word Apostasia: with only two uses, one can hardly establish a law of meanings. The point is, what was the INTENT OF THE AUTHOR? Does a "falling away" (from something - the Greek word gives no hint of what this falling away is from) fit the context of the passage? It is not just any general falling away or departure, it is THE departure. And this apostasia absolutely must fit verses 6,7 & 8, which say that SOMETHING is restraining the coming of the man of sin, but that something will be "taken out of the way," and when that is accomplished and that SOMETHING has departed and been "taken out of the way," THEN the man of sin will be revealed.

Now, all of you readers, go and read verse three again and see: verse 3 part B is conclusive: at this time the man of is HAS BEEN REVEALED: " 3 ... and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction."

Is he or isn't he? This verse gives us no doubt: HE IS REVEALED in verse 3B.

Thefore, the restraining SOMETHING has at this time been taken out of the way.

Now, please ask youself, CAN EVIL RESTRAIN EVIL?

Again what is the intent of author? the answer MUST Keep with the theme, the gathering.
The answer must be something good taken out of the way.

Greek scholars tell us that apostasia CAN MEAN a spacial departure.

Case closed. The apostasia is the departure of the church via the rapture. lamad
 

ENOCH2010

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Lamad you might ought to read Rev. chapter 20 and see when the First Resurrection happens. They are only 2 resurrections of a massive group. The first happens as the Lord returns for the millennial reign, the second happens after the millennial reign. Now the pre-tribbers have to add a resurrection happening sometime before the tribulation starts to have a rapture occur with said resurrection. But we all know what the Bible says about adding to the Book, don't we.
 

TWC

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iamlamad said:
No, I don't know that. In fact, neither did Paul or John know that, because it is simply not true and not according to what is written,
The great day of His wrath is speaking of the much prophecied Day of the Lord that many prophets of the Old Testament spoke about. It is an extended period of time, not just one 24 hour period. A careful study of the Word will prove that God's wrath BEGINS with the first trumpet judgment (comes soon after the 6th seal warning of His wrath) and continues on through much of the book of Revelation.
The events of the sixth seal are described in Matthew 24, preceded by the words, "Immediately after the tribulation of those days".

for the word Apostasia: with only two uses, one can hardly establish a law of meanings. The point is, what was the INTENT OF THE AUTHOR? Does a "falling away" (from something - the Greek word gives no hint of what this falling away is from) fit the context of the passage? It is not just any general falling away or departure, it is THE departure. And this apostasia absolutely must fit verses 6,7 & 8, which say that SOMETHING is restraining the coming of the man of sin, but that something will be "taken out of the way," and when that is accomplished and that SOMETHING has departed and been "taken out of the way," THEN the man of sin will be revealed.
Fit the context of the passage? Paul was reiterating to the Thessalonians what Jesus told his disciples on the Mount of Olives. Going back to the Olivet Discourse, Jesus does in fact mention that many would fall away from the faith in the last days. There is no reason whatsoever to believe that Paul was suddenly talking about something other than that.

Now, all of you readers, go and read verse three again and see: verse 3 part B is conclusive: at this time the man of is HAS BEEN REVEALED: " 3 ... and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction."

Is he or isn't he? This verse gives us no doubt: HE IS REVEALED in verse 3B.

Thefore, the restraining SOMETHING has at this time been taken out of the way.

Now, please ask youself, CAN EVIL RESTRAIN EVIL?

Again what is the intent of author? the answer MUST Keep with the theme, the gathering.
The answer must be something good taken out of the way.

Greek scholars tell us that apostasia CAN MEAN a spacial departure.

Case closed. The apostasia is the departure of the church via the rapture. lamad
The restrainer is neither the Holy Spirit nor the church, nor is this restrainer evil. Your logic is faulty.
 

iamlamad

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John S said:
The Great Day of Wrath happens near the END of the Tribulation, which then brings about the return of Jesus Christ and the Millenium - 1000 years without Satan.
Any Rapture will be then, which would make it Post Trib.
This does not even make good theory, because it does not fit the scriptures. Where does John first mention the day of wrath? Of course, in chapter 6. The first trumpet is the beginning of His wrath. What happens at the first trumpet? All the green grass is burn up.

Joel 1
15 Alas for the day! for the day of the Lord is at hand, and as a destruction from the Almighty shall it come.
16 Is not the meat cut off before our eyes, yea, joy and gladness from the house of our God?
17 The seed is rotten under their clods, the garners are laid desolate, the barns are broken down; for the corn is withered.
18 How do the beasts groan! the herds of cattle are perplexed, because they have no pasture; yea, the flocks of sheep are made desolate.
19 O Lord, to thee will I cry: for the fire hath devoured the pastures of the wilderness, and the flame hath burned all the trees of the field.
20 The beasts of the field cry also unto thee: for the rivers of waters are dried up, and the fire hath devoured the pastures of the wilderness.

What is Joel's sign of the day of the Lord? Is it not that the pastures are burned up?

I am convinced the first trumpet is the fulfillment of this prophecy in Joel.

Isaiah 13:6
Howl ye; for the day of the Lord is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty.

Is not the burning of trees and grass destruction?

Isaiah 13:9
Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.

Is the burning of trees and grass :laying the land desolate?"

Readers, make no mistake here: the trumpets are judgments of God. The seals are not. The seals are the birth pains. God's judgments and His wrath begins with the first trumpet judgment, and the warning of impending doom comes at the 6th seal. The 7th seal - 30 minutes of silence - is the official opening of the Day of the Lord and the 70th week of Daniel. They both start together and both run together until the 7th vial ends the 70th week, while the DAY continues.

As for the rapture, we see the results of the rapture, in Revelation 7, as the great crowd no one could number. Even a 5th grader could tell us it comes before the trumpet judgements begins the wrath of God.

This is in perfect agreement with Paul, who received the only revelation of the rapture. Paul tells us that the rapture is what starts the day of the Lord. (See 1 thes. 5)

It should be clear to true students of the word, that the gathering in Matthew 24 is not the rapture; indeed, could not possibly be the rapture - for Paul tells us it was a MYSTERY before He wrote of it. If it was a mystery, then it could not have been revealed at the Olivet discourse. Finally, a 5th grader reading Matthew 24 will tell us this gathering is gathering for HEAVEN, not the earth.



ENOCH2010 said:
Lamad you might ought to read Rev. chapter 20 and see when the First Resurrection happens. They are only 2 resurrections of a massive group. The first happens as the Lord returns for the millennial reign, the second happens after the millennial reign. Now the pre-tribbers have to add a resurrection happening sometime before the tribulation starts to have a rapture occur with said resurrection. But we all know what the Bible says about adding to the Book, don't we.
Perhaps you can tell us which of these two Jesus' resurrection was a part of? If there are only two, Jesus MUST have been one of these two, right? it is written that He was risen as firstfruits. That means, there must be secondfruits, thirdfruits, etc, and they must be a part of the SAME resurrection.....
So tell us which of the two Jesus was a part of.

Rev 20
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them:...

Who are these that are seated on thrones? When were they resurrected?

I will give the readers a hint:

Revelation 5:10
And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

Lamad

TWC said:
The events of the sixth seal are described in Matthew 24, preceded by the words, "Immediately after the tribulation of those days".


Fit the context of the passage? Paul was reiterating to the Thessalonians what Jesus told his disciples on the Mount of Olives. Going back to the Olivet Discourse, Jesus does in fact mention that many would fall away from the faith in the last days. There is no reason whatsoever to believe that Paul was suddenly talking about something other than that.


The restrainer is neither the Holy Spirit nor the church, nor is this restrainer evil. Your logic is faulty.
Let's look together, readers included:

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light..

Rev. 6 12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

Sorry,, I don't agree. There are TWO times these signs are shown. the first time is the warning for the DAY as shown to us in Joel 2 and Rev. 6. Here the moon appears as blood, while the sun is darkened. The next time these signs are seen is about 7 years later, as the sign for the coming of the Son of man. We see this sign also shown in Joel 3. Did you never read Joel 3 to see both these signs written in Joel?

Joel 3
15 The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining.
Mat 24...the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light.

Readers, do you see the difference? When the moon is darkened, WE CANNOT SEE IT! The only time we can see the moon is when it is lit up by sunlight. Otherwise it is invisible to the naked eye.

What is the timeframe for the Joel 3 signs?

16 The Lord also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the Lord will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel.

Readers, as you can see, it is WHEN JESUS RETURNS. So this fits Matt. 24 perfectly.

Observation: it seems those that cannot see a pretrib rapture cannot see that these signs in the sun and moon come TWICE, and they are slightly different.


"Paul was reiterating to the Thessalonians what Jesus told his disciples on the Mount of Olives."

I don't think so. But perhaps you could show us two verses that show you this...one from 2 thes. and one from Mat. 24?

One thing I do see in Mat 24 that others seem to overlook, is: "but the end is not yet." Much of the signs people think are IN the 70th week Jesus tells us are only birth pains.

I am sorry, I cannot find in Matt. 24 where Jesus said there would be a falling away from the faith.. Can you show us that verse?

I think you missed the THEME of Paul's passage. For the readers, let's look together:

1. But relative to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ (the Messiah) and our gathering together to [meet] Him, we beg you, brethren, (Amp)

Readers. shall we let PAUL tell us what he was really going to discuss here? What does He say? His THEME is the coming of Jesus and our gathering together to meet Him. This is what Paul is going to discuss. Thanks, TWC, but I am going with what PAUL said he would discuss. Therefore, any theory of his meaning MUST INCLUDE something about the gathering.

If we read this passage closely, PAUL TELLS US who or what the restrainer is! It is no secret and all should know - we should not have any disagreements......unless of course, the truth destroys someone's pet theory. Don't believe me? Let's look:

6 And now you know what is restraining him .....

Readers, I did not write this, PAUL wrote it! So HOW can we know? Just simply UNDERSTANDING the intent of the author, the Holy Spirit when HE caused Paul to write, "and NOW YOU KNOW..." I believe even a 5th grader could understand Paul's meaning....somewhere in the previous verses HE TOLD US who the restrainer was. That is why he wrote, "and now you know..."

Verses 6-8 tell us that what is restraining MUST BE TAKEN OUT OF THE WAY before the man of sin can be revealed.
In verse 3-B the restraining IS TAKEN out of the way. Therefore, pure logic demands that the restrainer was removed in 3-A.

Paul then is clear, the meaning of the Greek word, "apostasia" has to mean the restrainer - indeed, it can mean nothing else.
But is it not just any apostasia, it is THE apostasia....a very significant one. This is why I am sure the first translators had it right as "departure." Did Paul talk about as SIGNIFICANT departure of something that could possibly restrain evil? OF COURSE, Paul talked about the rapture of the church!

As I said, case closed. We we get to heaven and ask Paul, He is going to tells us "Of course I meant the gathering of the believers, that was the theme of the passage," or at least words to this effect. It is the intent of the author, the Holy Spirit. Lamad