Was Jesus 'mortal' or 'immortal' ?

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Peterlag

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And you think this makes you a world-class expert on the resurrected Jesus? It is certainly one view as to "how it works," and I'm not even in violent disagreement with it, but it's just one more human attempt to make sense in a connect-the-dots sort of way with something that is fundamentally an unfathomable mystery. It's your little mental framework for thinking about Jesus. The term "expert" in reference to the resurrected Christ is indeed inherently comical; if you recognized this reality and dropped the "expert" pose, people might be more receptive to what you have to say.
We become an expert when we apply the Scriptures and it produces the desired results. Then with signs miracles and wonders in front of us is when we can get out of the cheap talk because we are applying biblical principles and getting spiritual results. Paul put it this way...

My speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the spirit and of power.
 
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Peterlag

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The reference to "Jesus" in 1 Thess. 1:10 strikes me as a reference to him in his post-resurrection status. Still, I am happy to adopt your definition of "Jesus" as limited to pre-resurrecetion status, despite Paul's apparent disagreement with it in this passage. But what follows from this? That the gospel accounts of the risen Christ don't apply to "Jesus?" That semantic distinction gets us nowhere.
We including Paul are all men and not perfect gods. The term Jesus does not apply to his resurrected body. But could we use the word Jesus when referring to him. Sure and millions do everyday including Paul. My point was if we want to learn about the resurrected one we need to study the Christ and not from the Gospels. That was my only point when I wrote to someone else what you are commenting about.
 

Peterlag

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I agree. Paul states in 2 Cor. 10:18 that it is not those who commend themselves who are approved.
Can we keep the stuff in context? I'm not commending myself. I'm responding to a person who wrote me saying I don't know the Scriptures if I can't see that Jesus is God. I was responding to his remark and nobody else.
 

RedFan

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Can we keep the stuff in context? I'm not commending myself. I'm responding to a person who wrote me saying I don't know the Scriptures if I can't see that Jesus is God. I was responding to his remark and nobody else.
Whomever your comment was responding to, it is the nature of public fora that patting yourself on the back reveals an unsavory armpit of arrogance to everyone who may be watching. I happened to be among them this time. Sorry to call you out on it. I apologize. For all I know you are a very humble guy, and this incident was an aberration.
 

BreadOfLife

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I do hold back on that trinity subject. But not because I can't or will not provide much. It's because when I do management locks the post. But let's try a few verses...

Peter’s teaching to the Jews on the Day of Pentecost says “God has made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified.” (Acts 2:36). God must have greater authority than Jesus in order to make him the "Lord."
Christ would have already been the “Lord” if he was God—in which case God would not need to “make” him the "Lord." It's also taught that Jesus must be God because he's called the “Lord.” The Greek word for Lord is kurios and is a masculine title of respect and nobility, which is why we see many others besides God and Jesus being called the “Lord."

  • Property owners are called the "Lord" (Matthew 20:8) kurios is “owner” in the NIV.
  • Heads of households are called the "Lord" (Mark 13:35) kurios is "owner."
  • Slave owners were called the "Lord" (Matthew 10:24) kurios is "master."
  • Husbands were called the "Lord" (1 Peter 3:6) kurios is "master" in the NIV.
  • A son called his father the "Lord" (Matthew 21:30) kurios is "sir."
  • The Roman Emperor was called the "Lord" (Acts 25:26) kurios is "His Majesty."
  • Roman authorities were called the "Lord" (Matthew 27:63) kurios is "sir."
And nobody's arguing the point about the word. "Lord."
One
more time:

The Triune Godhead consists of Three distinct persons in ONE Being.
The Father is not the Son or the Holy Spirit.
The Son is not the Father or the Holy Spirit.
The Holy Spirit is not the Father or the Son.
The Holy Spirit proceeds from BOTH the Father and the Son.

It’s 3 “Whos” and 1 “What”. This is a fact that is conveniently ignored by non-Trinitarians.
The reason you guys ignore it is because you refuse to acknowledge that each Person in the Godhead has a distinct role. Peter’s words in Acts 2 employ metaphorical language - such as is used many times in Scripture. Metaphors and anthropomorphisms make is easier to understand a supernatural point:

- Psalm 91:4 implies that God had wings and feathers. He does NOT. God is SPIRIT (John 4:24).
- Psalm 113:3 tells us that the sun “rises“ and “sets” – be we know that it doesn’t and that it’s just the rotation of the earth.
- Exod. 15:8 states that God parted the sea with a “blast of His nostrils”.
God doesn’t have a nose.

Isa. 11:12 emphatically states that the earth has “four corners”.
It does NOT. The earth is ROUND . . .

Acts 2:36
God has made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified” ().

God didn’t “make” the Son. Thew Son ALWAYS existed (John 1:1).

Remember:
God says:
Rev. 1:8
I am the Alpha and the Omega,”
says the Lord God, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”


Jesus Christ says:
Rev. 22:13

I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.”


Thay can’t BOTH be the Alpha and the Omega - unless they are BOTH God . . .
 
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RedFan

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Acts 2:36
God has made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified” ().

God didn’t “make” the Son. Thew Son ALWAYS existed (John 1:1).
Methinks you've missed @Peterlag's point about Acts 2:36 -- which was that there would have been no need for God to make him Lord and Christ if he was already God. You would have far better luck here with Phil. 2:6-11.
 
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Peterlag

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And nobody's arguing the point about the word. "Lord."
One
more time:

The Triune Godhead consists of Three distinct persons in ONE Being.
The Father is not the Son or the Holy Spirit.
The Son is not the Father or the Holy Spirit.
The Holy Spirit is not the Father or the Son.
The Holy Spirit proceeds from BOTH the Father and the Son.

It’s 3 “Whos” and 1 “What”. This is a fact that is conveniently ignored by non-Trinitarians.
The reason you guys ignore it is because you refuse to acknowledge that each Person in the Godhead has a distinct role. Peter’s words in Acts 2 employ metaphorical language - such as is used many times in Scripture. Metaphors and anthropomorphisms make is easier to understand a supernatural point:

- Psalm 91:4 implies that God had wings and feathers. He does NOT. God is SPIRIT (John 4:24).
- Psalm 113:3 tells us that the sun “rises“ and “sets” – be we know that it doesn’t and that it’s just the rotation of the earth.
- Exod. 15:8 states that God parted the sea with a “blast of His nostrils”.
God doesn’t have a nose.

Isa. 11:12 emphatically states that the earth has “four corners”.
It does NOT. The earth is ROUND . . .

Acts 2:36
God has made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified” ().

God didn’t “make” the Son. Thew Son ALWAYS existed (John 1:1).

Remember:
God says:
Rev. 1:8
I am the Alpha and the Omega,”
says the Lord God, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”


Jesus Christ says:
Rev. 22:13

I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.”

Thay can’t BOTH be the Alpha and the Omega - unless they are BOTH God . . .
Jesus never taught the Trinity even when he had good opportunities to do so, and we see this when Jesus met the Samaritan woman at the well (John 4:1-42) and told her he was the Messiah, but nothing more. Jesus did not take the opportunity to teach the Trinity when he asked the Apostles who they thought he was, and Peter said that Jesus was the Christ (Matthew 16:17-20). Also he said he was the Messiah, but did not say a word about the Trinity when he healed the man who had been born blind (John 9:35-38). Trinitarians also commonly say that Jesus claimed to be God, and for that reason the Jews hated him and tried to kill him, but that is not the case because Jesus had been stating in various ways that he was the Messiah, and that is what the Jews were upset about. The Jews all throughout their history made a clear distinction between “God” and the “Messiah” and they did not think the Messiah was going to be God or a “Person” in a triune God.

The Jews would not have considered Jesus a threat, but insane if he had walked around saying he was God. But it was a threat for Jesus to claim to be the Messiah of God and also walk around doing miracles. Jesus had not been claiming to be God in the flesh and this is why the Jews never asked him at his trial if he was God in the flesh, but instead they asked him about what he had been claiming to be, which was the Messiah. Mark 14:61-62 records the High Priest asking “Are you the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?" And Jesus said "I am.” The High Priest tore his garments and said he deserved to be put to death when Jesus stated he was the Messiah. So we see that the Jews correctly assessed that Jesus had been claiming to be the Christ, and that Jesus indeed said he was the Christ, and also that the Jews thought his claim was worthy of the death penalty.
 
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BreadOfLife

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Methinks you've missed @Peterlag's point about Acts 2:36 -- which was that there would have been no need for God to make him Lord and Christ if he was already God. You would have far better luck here with Phil. 2:6-11.
No - this is the very reason I brought up the roles of each Person in the Godhead.

In the Son's role, He unites to Himself two dnatures - deithy and humanity. The only part of the Son that was "made" was His flesh.
Phil. 2:6-11 is another excellent example of the metaphorcal language often used in Scripture.
 
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Peterlag

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Whomever your comment was responding to, it is the nature of public fora that patting yourself on the back reveals an unsavory armpit of arrogance to everyone who may be watching. I happened to be among them this time. Sorry to call you out on it. I apologize. For all I know you are a very humble guy, and this incident was an aberration.
Oh should I have written back saying yep you're right? I don't know anything. Only you.
 
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Peterlag

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So my apology is not accepted?
I'm just telling the truth. You guys can call it bragging, boasting, thinking more highly of oneself and having a fat head. But I'm just stating the facts. I am an expert in biblical data concerning the resurrected Christ Jesus.
 

RedFan

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I'm just telling the truth. You guys can call it bragging, boasting, thinking more highly of oneself and having a fat head. But I'm just stating the facts. I am an expert in biblical data concerning the resurrected Christ Jesus.
SO, MY APOLOGY IS NOT ACCEPTED?
 

RedFan

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I don't know what you are referring to when you say your apology is not accepted.
I apologized in Post #224. Your response was "Oh should I have written back saying yep you're right? I don't know anything. Only you."
 

BreadOfLife

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Jesus never taught the Trinity even when he had good opportunities to do so, and we see this when Jesus met the Samaritan woman at the well (John 4:1-42) and told her he was the Messiah, but nothing more. Jesus did not take the opportunity to teach the Trinity when he asked the Apostles who they thought he was, and Peter said that Jesus was the Christ (Matthew 16:17-20). Also he said he was the Messiah, but did not say a word about the Trinity when he healed the man who had been born blind (John 9:35-38). Trinitarians also commonly say that Jesus claimed to be God, and for that reason the Jews hated him and tried to kill him, but that is not the case because Jesus had been stating in various ways that he was the Messiah, and that is what the Jews were upset about. The Jews all throughout their history made a clear distinction between “God” and the “Messiah” and they did not think the Messiah was going to be God or a “Person” in a triune God.

The Jews would not have considered Jesus a threat, but insane if he had walked around saying he was God. But it was a threat for Jesus to claim to be the Messiah of God and also walk around doing miracles. Jesus had not been claiming to be God in the flesh and this is why the Jews never asked him at his trial if he was God in the flesh, but instead they asked him about what he had been claiming to be, which was the Messiah. Mark 14:61-62 records the High Priest asking “Are you the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?" And Jesus said "I am.” The High Priest tore his garments and said he deserved to be put to death when Jesus stated he was the Messiah. So we see that the Jews correctly assessed that Jesus had been claiming to be the Christ, and that
Jesus indeed said he was the Christ, and also that the Jews thought his claim was worthy of the death penalty.
WRONBG.
Your entire argument collapses here with the Jewish leaders.

The ONL thing they could have legally stoned Jesus for was blasphemy – which is what they were trying to do in John 8:59. There is NO other reason for trying to kill Him here, given the context.

Additionally, Jesus’s answer to the High Priest in Mark 14:61-62 (“I am”) is NOT the same context as His statement to the Pharisees in John 8:58 (“I am”). It makes perfect grammatical sense in the first case – but NOT in the 2ns case:


1. “Are you the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?" “I am.”
2.
“Before Abraham was, I am”

For YOUR argument to make sense, He would have to have said, “I was.” Jesus was conveying that He is God so they tried to kil Him.

We see the SAME situation in John 10:
John 10:28-29

But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.” Again they tried to seize him, but he escaped their grasp.

AGAIN, He equates Himself with God.
 
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Fred J

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That's is how with every 'mortal', where after death a body remains and decays.
Jesus was resurrected so his body was free to leave the tomb.
Apparently 'immortality', for He raised in the same body without change, and was on earth for 40 days visiting saints for reproof. Even though it is written, 'He is the firstborn from the dead.' (Colossians 1:18)

As for the 'mortal' born again saints in Christ, who are dead in the flesh and born of the Spirit, and are spirit. For it is written, 'Now this I say brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of GOD; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.'

And is written, 'In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, ............................'

They will be changed to the immortality body and meet up with the Lord in the clouds.
Hebrews 2:14
Jesus have the same human body like us, but without sin and non blemish until death. For His human body since birth, have been kept and remain 'immortal', and 'forever the same'.
 
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Fred J

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One is mortal until they put on immortality.
That are for those who born of and after Adam, who transgress and are 'mortal'. Where death shall swallow them up and their body eventually decay.

But, it is different with Jesus, He was tempted in every way like us, but He is without sin, to remain 'immortality'. As i've testified before, if Jesus was like us 'mortals' as you say, then there should have been a mortal body found in His tomb.
 
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Peterlag

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WRONBG.
Your entire argument collapses here with the Jewish leaders.

The ONL thing they could have legally stoned Jesus for was blasphemy – which is what they were trying to do in John 8:59. There is NO other reason for trying to kill Him here, given the context.

Additionally, Jesus’s answer to the High Priest in Mark 14:61-62 (“I am”) is NOT the same context as His statement to the Pharisees in John 8:58 (“I am”). It makes perfect grammatical sense in the first case – but NOT in the 2ns case:


1. “Are you the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?" “I am.”
2.
“Before Abraham was, I am”

For YOUR argument to make sense, He would have to have said, “I was.” Jesus was conveying that He is God so they tried to kil Him.

We see the SAME situation in John 10:
John 10:28-29

But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.” Again they tried to seize him, but he escaped their grasp.

AGAIN, He equates Himself with God.

John 8:58
At the last super, the disciples were trying to find out who would deny the Christ. They said literally, "Not I am, Lord" Matthew 26:22, 25. No one would say the disciples were trying to deny they were God because they were using the phrase "Not I am." "I am" was a common way of designating oneself and it did not mean you were claiming to be God. The argument is made that because Jesus was "before" Abraham, Jesus must be God. Jesus figuratively existed in Abraham's time. He did not actually physically exist as a person, but rather he existed in the mind of God as God's plan for the redemption of man. In order for the Trinitarian argument that Jesus' "I am" statement in John 8:58 makes him God, his statement must be equivalent with God's "I am" statement in Exodus 3:14. The two statements are very different. The Greek phrase in John does mean "I am." The Hebrew phrase in Exodus means "to be" or "to become." God was saying "I will be what I will be."
 
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