Do Demon's Dwell Within Christians?

I don't know of your personal experiences Axehead but I am talking from a wealth of testimonies. My dad and his friend have cast out many demons. At my church we have helped many heavily involved in witchcraft come out. I don't mean to run down the exorcisms there as demons are everywhere, but imo here in S Africa, the power and possession of those involved in witchcraft is undeniable and extremely dark and evil. In the testimonies of the converted, they explain how demons bring an extreme presence of evil with them. Even trace it to a certain spot in the house. Jesus kills this 100% when they come to Him. Psalm 23:4 Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me

Hi KingJ,

the power and possession of those involved in witchcraft is undeniable and extremely dark and evil. In the testimonies of the converted, they explain how demons bring an extreme presence of evil with them. Even trace it to a certain spot in the house.

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This is true, of witchcraft and sorcery, but there are many other kinds of spirit, as Jesus clearly demonstrated through His ministry, which are reported in the New Testament. It is a mistake to think that the only kind of spirit which can have a vicious stronghold in a person, is as a direct result of active witchcraft. Any kind of personal choice to sin prior to conversion, or, to disobey the Lord after conversion, is 'as the sin of witchcraft'. Any person who cannot alter a behaviour by simply deciding to alter it, is in bondage to that behaviour and the powers which control it. John 8:34.

Romans 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. 12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof... 16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Paul is taking the spiritual (long) view in v 16. On the way to eternal death, the person who is living in the flesh may also receive evil spirits. But, my impression is that some spirits spoil a person's life without having been invited to by their sins. For instance:

Mark 9:25 When Jesus saw that the people came running together, he rebuked the foul spirit, saying unto him, Thou dumb and deaf spirit, I charge thee, come out of him, and enter no more into him. (Mark 9:21)

I believe the leading of the Holy Spirit is essential for any Christian to know God's mind for an individual that needs deliverance.

Luke 4:18, 19... 25 But I tell you of a truth, many widows were in Israel in the days of Elias, when the heaven was shut up three years and six months, when great famine was throughout all the land; 26 But unto none of them was Elias sent, save unto Sarepta, a city of Sidon, unto a woman that was a widow. 27 And many lepers were in Israel in the time of Eliseus the prophet; and none of them was cleansed, saving Naaman the Syrian. 28 And all they in the synagogue, when they heard these things, were filled with wrath, 29 And rose up, and thrust him out of the city, and led him unto the brow of the hill whereon their city was built, that they might cast him down headlong.

This explains why the man at the Beautiful Gate of the Temple was not healed until after Pentecost. His physical healing is a picture of how our inner man is awakened and enabled to move forward, when the power of the Holy Spirit begins to invade our lives.

A person who is repentant for witchcraft, who turns from it with all their heart, is bound to experience deliverance in that area of their life. But we all have blindspots, and issues to deal with as the Lord brings them to our understanding, spiritually, exactly according to the Lord's leading, in the same way as the time eventually came for the man at the Temple to be healed of being a cripple. It's a picture of being made whole spiritually.

Malachi 3:3 And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver:
and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver,
that they may offer unto the Lord an offering in righteousness.

Matthew 5:Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee; 24 Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.

Righteousness is about a much more than having come to Jesus once, and dealt with the most immediate issues of that moment. Every moment is important, and every obedience or disobedience is known to the Lord, brining with growth or stuntedness, spiritually speaking.

Dragonfly thanks for your post, you have a well thought out view and I ''kind of'' agree. But you are overly complicating things IMHO. A demon is a demon. There are not different kinds of spirits. There are only different ways to explain demon oppression.

This is not directed at anyone, just something I want to share.

If a Christian believes he is ''demon possessed', he is not allowed in my house. I cannot and will not have a skitzo or un-exorcised Emily Rose come into my house in the name of Jesus.

One of my best friends went through an episode of assumed demon possession. He would go to deliverance meetings. I went with him a couple of times as he was a young babe in Christ and I knew someone was messing with his head. At the one meeting I saw him fall to the ground, screaming, throwing a fit and foaming at the mouth. I knew he was not epileptic and I could not sense a demon, so this puzzled me. I could not help feeling annoyed by all the Christians shouting at an assumed demon. I sat him down afterwards and we had a very deep and serious discussion on Christianity and what a Christian is. His episodes stopped. He acknowledged he was in the flesh and exercised emotions that were inspired / heightened by others around him encouraging them. He was brainwashed into thinking he was demon posssessed in a sense.

Most times exorcisms are not needed. It is normally those that are borderline in their conviction that have exorcism experiences. Where they would shake, scream and throw up. It is over rather quickly. Most often these demons return and the person stops visiting you as it becomes clear that they want the demons. It is not like the you-tube video of Emily Rose. Though I don't dispute that that happened. The scenario there is the Catholics doing the exorcism were not Christians. They quoted the bible and it frustrated the demons. The demons hurt her as she was not convinced to have them gone. Scripture says lay hands on no man suddenly. Today in churches these deliverance meetings are mostly carnal. I do see the need to exhort and pray for deliverance from oppression and sure that can cause someone to have a fit. But we need to discern properly! If someone is demon possessed they will very likely not come to church or give you the opportunity. If someone wants demons gone because they learn of Jesus, God rids them of them immediately or uses us for the' final push', to exorcise them and lead them to Jesus with scripture. The Holy Spirit is constantly watching the intentions of all, as are demons.

All those who believe a Christian can be demon possessed need to watch the exorcism of Emily Rose. Would you trust Emily Rose with your kids at Sunday school? A demon is a demon. Every demon desires immorality. Every demon desire lies. It is simply not right to say this is a demon of X or Y. Demons tend to focus on our weaknesses. Like if you have a weakness for porn. A demon will push that and thereby be labelled a demon of lust. Instead of a demon encouraging lust. We are guilty for watching porn, not the demon or the devil.

Saying that a Christian can be demon possessed is a very serious statement to make. Think of those that have been exorcised hearing this. Think of kids who have just got confidence to chase demons using the name of Jesus.

If we are in-Christ (Christian) demons run. Bottom line. If we are not in-Christ (Not Christian) you need to accept / open the door wide for demons, they don't just possess you. There is still a level of protection from God for the unsaved and even when possessed. By God restricting demons from doing certain things to you, as they really just want you dead.

We really do blame the devil and demons far too much. We are guilty of desiring evil and giving into it! The devil proposed to Eve what she would inevitable reason herself. It would just have taken longer.

Hi KingJ,

No-one in this thread believes that a Christian can be 'demon possessed'. Sorry if you got the impression that this is being disputed.

What is being disputed is whether there can ever be any need at all for a Christian to be delivered from the grip of a 'spirit' in a particular area of their life, after they have received the Holy Spirit. This is what this discussion is about.

Those of us who have experience of assisting another Christian to get free, or, of needing prayer by another Christian for ourselves, are saying that there is a spiritual component to pulling down certain strongholds, which can be too strong for the person in whose life the stronghold is, or which can remain in their life completely unknown to them - such as described in the contribution by Delivered, which you'll find here on p5 of this thread.

Without doubt, the more one obeys Christ the more one's life will become free of strongholds. Some strongholds fall down as soon as Christ is received, but other strongholds require a more conscious and direct attack by the believer, to mortify the flesh (Romans 8:13, Psalm 18, especially vv 34 - 45, 2 Corinthians 10:2, 3, 4, 5, 6), to resist temptation and to keep one's heart from idols. 1 John 5:21, Jude 1:21, 1 John 1:7.

Psalm 18:16 He sent from above, he took me, he drew me out of many waters. 17 He delivered me from my strong enemy, and from them which hated me: for they were too strong for me.

Because there is so much ignorance about spiritual realities, many 'Christians' in the west are living way outside the narrow confines of NT expectations, such as victory over sin and to be completely free of bondage. That said, God knows the human condition better than we do, and some believers go through a series of crises and what seem to be hard choices, on their way to being able to exercise their liberty in Christ, fully.

Hebrews 11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went. 9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise: 10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

There are not different kinds of spirits.

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Well, I agree that a spirit is a spirit, but there are definitely spirits with more power than others. Some control geographical territory (princes over principalities) and oppress people that way. Others control area within a territory. Still others inhabit parts of the body of a person, affecting their thinking and reasoning and the appetites of their flesh, whether they realise it or not. Some of us are familiar with the fact that witches and sorcerers invite demons to inhabit them for the purposes of being more fully used by them for evil purposes, but many ordinary people who are internally oppressed by one or more 'demons', have no idea that they are having their strings pulled by a spirit, in certain areas of their life.

The Holy Spirit in the believer enables the believer to make sense of the battle, and leads the believer in appropriate prayer for himself, until he gets the victory through Jesus Christ our Lord, or, realises that he needs help from a Christian who is spiritual and knows how to pray safely.

dragonfly said:

Hi KingJ,

No-one in this thread believes that a Christian can be 'demon possessed'. Sorry if you got the impression that this is being disputed.

What is being disputed is whether there can ever be any need at all for a Christian to be delivered from the grip of a 'spirit' in a particular area of their life, after they have received the Holy Spirit. This is what this discussion is about.

Those of us who have experience of assisting another Christian to get free, or, of needing prayer by another Christian for ourselves, are saying that there is a spiritual component to pulling down certain strongholds, which can be too strong for the person in whose life the stronghold is, or which can remain in their life completely unknown to them - such as described in the contribution by Delivered, which you'll find here on p5 of this thread.

Without doubt, the more one obeys Christ the more one's life will become free of strongholds. Some strongholds fall down as soon as Christ is received, but other strongholds require a more conscious and direct attack by the believer, to mortify the flesh (Romans 8:13, Psalm 18, especially vv 34 - 45, 2 Corinthians 10:2, 3, 4, 5, 6), to resist temptation and to keep one's heart from idols. 1 John 5:21, Jude 1:21, 1 John 1:7.

Psalm 18:16 He sent from above, he took me, he drew me out of many waters. 17 He delivered me from my strong enemy, and from them which hated me: for they were too strong for me.

Because there is so much ignorance about spiritual realities, many 'Christians' in the west are living way outside the narrow confines of NT expectations, such as victory over sin and to be completely free of bondage. That said, God knows the human condition better than we do, and some believers go through a series of crises and what seem to be hard choices, on their way to being able to exercise their liberty in Christ, fully.

Hebrews 11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went. 9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise: 10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.




Well, I agree that a spirit is a spirit, but there are definitely spirits with more power than others. Some control geographical territory (princes over principalities) and oppress people that way. Others control area within a territory. Still others inhabit parts of the body of a person, affecting their thinking and reasoning and the appetites of their flesh, whether they realise it or not. Some of us are familiar with the fact that witches and sorcerers invite demons to inhabit them for the purposes of being more fully used by them for evil purposes, but many ordinary people who are internally oppressed by one or more 'demons', have no idea that they are having their strings pulled by a spirit, in certain areas of their life.

The Holy Spirit in the believer enables the believer to make sense of the battle, and leads the believer in appropriate prayer for himself, until he gets the victory through Jesus Christ our Lord, or, realises that he needs help from a Christian who is spiritual and knows how to pray safely.

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Very good post, dragonfly.

We do know from scripture there are different kinds of spirits. The Jews were well aware of demons/spirits as we can see in the OT and NT.

lying spirit, 1Kings_22:21-22
spirit of an unclean devil, Luke_4:33, Mark_3:30, 5:2, 7:25, Luke_11:24
dumb spirit, Mark_9:17
dumb and deaf spirit, Mark_9:25
foul spirit, Mark_9:25
spirit of fear, 2Tim_1:7
spirit of antichrist. 1John_4:3
spirit of error, 1John_4:6
spirit of infirmity, Luke_13:11
spirit of bondage, Rom_8:15
spirit of divination, Acts_16:16
spirit of whoredoms, Hos_5:4
spirit of heaviness, Isa_61:3
spirit of deep sleep (slumber), Isa_29:10, Isa_6:10, Rom_11:8
spirit of jealousy , Num_5:14
familiar spirit, Lev_20:27, 1 Sam_28:7
evil spirit Judge_9:23, 1 Sam_16:14, Acts_19:16
haughty spirit, Psalms_16:18

Evil spirits work in the children of disobedience. We are not to be engaged in disobedience lest that spirit finds a resting place in us, again.
Eph_2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

Paul admonishing the Ephesians to not be disobedient.

Eph_5:6-7 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. Be not ye therefore partakers with them.

And the Colossian Believers are being reminded that the wrath of God will come upon the children of disobedience. Paul is reminding the church of these things for a reason.

Col_3:5-6 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry: For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:

Tit_1:16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

Paul clarifies that the Believer can receive another spirit.
2Co_11:4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

1Jn_4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

We are to come out of Babylon which is the "hold of every foul" spirit.
Rev_18:2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.

Axehead

Thanks, Justin. I firmly believe Christians should be praying for release from every bondage, and not assume they are free to live as before. Even after being released from a spiritual stronghold, one can find there is another which was being concealed. The Light must shine in every room of our hearts.

Axehead, thanks for picking up the point about staying free, by continuing in obedience. That was in my mind while I was writing, but I'm more focused on trying to express the need to understand the spiritual issues in one's own life, so that one can throw off the yokes of bondages. The fact is, that even Christians have preferences and natural inclinations, but all of these must be available to the Lord's control, in deference to His Lordship.

The word which has been translated 'disobedience', has a stronger import, namely, 'obstinacy to the divine will'. This is strongly connected to the word 'imagination' (image-ination) which is usually translated 'stubbornness' and refers to idolatry, whether in the mind only, or with a physical manifestation.

Evil spirits work in the children of disobedience. We are not to be engaged in disobedience lest that spirit finds a resting place in us, again.
Eph_2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

Paul admonishing the Ephesians to not be disobedient.

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The other translation of the same Greek word, is 'unbelief'. So, disobedience is a manifestation of unbelief (in God/God's word).

People are deceived about the Lord's second coming, the nature of salvation, the Scriptures, and doctrinal truth. The grave danger to the body of Christ is from teachers who pretend to be what they're not. Teaching spirits are as Ephesians calls them "principalities, rulers, powers, and wicked spirits." These evil spirits have planning (Matthew 12:44-45) strategy (Ephesians 6:11) the deception comes to those who give heed (1 Timothy 4:1).

Seducing spirits mix their teachings with a person's own reasoning. The way to deceive a person is through the mind. The seducing spirits deceive by reasoning without sufficient data or using a wrong premise. The seducing spirit has achieved its goal by putting a lie in the mind by false reasoning.
Human teachers can be used to deceive many. The error is to believe a teacher, not on the truth of the Scripture, but by a statement like "he is a good pastor or a good man" this is wrong. In this way seducing spirits will make a special effort to use those that transmit doctrine to deceive. All believers must test all teaching and all teachers, pastors etc. good men can be deceived and seducing spirits use good men to transmit lies under the guise of truth. Scripture in this way is taken out of context, twisted, sentences are taken from their correlative sentences, and texts are picked out to make it appear to be the mind of God. There are many false teachings taken to be truth in our day. Beware!
All truth comes from God and all lies come from satan. Truth dispels error. All thoughts and beliefs belong in one of two realms--the realm of truth or the realm of falsehood. Teachings of seducing spirits can be identified by 1) the weakening of the authority of Scripture. 2) Distort the teaching of Scripture. 3) Add man's thoughts to the Scriptures. 4) Put the Scriptures aside entirely. Countless false teachings are injected into the minds of believers. All thoughts, beliefs, and teachings must be tested by the truth of God's word. We must clearly understand that there's an army of active seducing spirits working to deceive many. We must be knowledgeable of seducing spirits and not be deceived by them.

Justin Mangonel said:

Dear All,

I wonder where we have gotten this notion that every single thing we do in life has to have chapter and verse. One wonders how the patriarchs of old ever lived without the Bible. Fact of the matter is that no one had a even the Pentateuch until Mose started writing it down after the age of 80. If I hear a demon speak out of a Christian do I really need to find chapter and verse to validate what I just heard? I don't think so...

I don't want to beat them into submission with scriptures but rather just show them that they can be free.

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Heed Daniel's warning and watch out for flattering words, for these spirits seek to captivate and plunder you.
"Those who do wickedly against the covenant he shall corrupt with flattery; but the people who know their God shall be strong, and carry out great exploits. And those of the people who understand shall instruct many; yet for many days they shall fall by sword and flame, by captivity and plundering. Now when they fall, they shall be aided with a little help; but many shall join with them by intrigue. And some of those of understanding shall fall, to refine them, purify them, and make them white, until the time of the end; because it is still for the appointed time. (Daniel 11:32-35, NKJV).


DF I see you except Justin's flattery even tough he contradicts your closing statement?
When some have seen from the beginning he encourages going beyond what is written.
Don't you understand that supporting such a thing destroys your biblical testimony and opens the door for anything goes?

dragonfly said:

Thanks, Justin. I firmly believe Christians should be praying for release from every bondage, and not assume they are free to live as before. Even after being released from a spiritual stronghold, one can find there is another which was being concealed. The Light must shine in every room of our hearts.

Axehead, thanks for picking up the point about staying free, by continuing in obedience. That was in my mind while I was writing, but I'm more focused on trying to express the need to understand the spiritual issues in one's own life, so that one can throw off the yokes of bondages. The fact is, that even Christians have preferences and natural inclinations, but all of these must be available to the Lord's control, in deference to His Lordship.

The word which has been translated 'disobedience', has a stronger import, namely, 'obstinacy to the divine will'. This is strongly connected to the word 'imagination' (image-ination) which is usually translated 'stubbornness' and refers to idolatry, whether in the mind only, or with a physical manifestation.





The other translation of the same Greek word, is 'unbelief'. So, disobedience is a manifestation of unbelief (in God/God's word).

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Do demons DWELL in Christians?
The bible doesn't indicate that.
So I have to say that is a distortion of scripture
The proof is your supportive allegiance with Justin who clearly and repeatedly weakens the authority of scripture.

Very helpful post, thanks for the effort Rex. Thanks too Dragonfly, I can agree with what you said.

Thanks for your comment, KingJ

DF I see you except Justin's flattery even tough he contradicts your closing statement?
When some have seen from the beginning he encourages going beyond what is written.
Don't you understand that supporting such a thing destroys your biblical testimony and opens the door for anything goes?

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Hi Rex,

I really did not take Justin's comments as flattery. Honestly. I don't need Justin's approval to express a view, and I'm not looking for compliments either - although when they come from a true brother in the Spirit, it is a relief to have been acknowledged by another saint. I feel perfectly able to disagree with Justin when I do disagree with him. And to clarify that statement further, I do not have the stomach for reading posts which are so far away from God's truth, that they verge on fiction, or, pure imagination - no matter who wrote them. I have been on internet forums for a few years now, and some of the time, I know who knows the Lord, and who doesn't. I also get a feel for the kind of gifting that a person has, and some people simply are not gifted to express God's thought - or scripturally aware enough to use Bible verses coherently... by which I mean, anyone can quote a Bible verse, but it is soon apparent whether they understand it or not. I departed from the Polygamy thread long ago, because of the amount of support being given it by Justin and others in these forums despite the mountain of scriptural evidence against polygamy in the teaching of Christ (and Paul, and Peter) which indicates polygamy is not the New Covenant standard (ever), nor an option for Christians. The fact that 'Christians' think polygamy has a place in certain Christian societies manifests a certain level of spiritual confusion, or, youthful ignorance, or unregenerate thinking.

If Justin is dealing with is own demons honestly, then I urge him to embrace the cross and mortify the flesh as Paul exhorted. However, God is the one who really knows our hearts, and not everything Justin states is either unscriptural or untrue... although some of it is. I don't feel called to pick him up on everything I disagree with. I don't have time to answer posts I want to answer, so I don't have time to take on other tasks, sadly. :huh:

Regarding the topic in this thread, although I have not majored on what I'm about to say, I do believe that it* has a bearing on your resistance to the public acknowlegement of the reality of spiritual strongholds which the New Testament clearly indicates were (and do) continue to exist in some CHRISTIANS. That* is, you would like a person not to be denominated 'a Christian' - even though they have turned their life over to Jesus Christ, and He has acknowledged their commitment, the Father sending the Holy Spirit into their hearts as a sign of their acceptance in heaven - until they are totally free from every bondage. But this is not how it worked in the early church. Those who had come to faith in Jesus Christ, and had been baptised, were allowed to join in the breaking of bread. When done as Christ commanded, this is a time for repentance, refreshment in spirit, deliverance, healing and reconciliation, in whatever order is most appropriate to the believer. God takes charge of their restoration.

Frankly, any cursory reading of almost any of Paul's epistles, indicates that Christians were sinning unrepentantly in a number of churches. Paul doesn't write in an accusing tone, but he warns them to repent, and to flee those sins which had most hold on them. Nor does he begin his letters with strong admonitions, but he after he has re-established what should be believed, he pulls no punches in his exhortations or rebukes. If Christians were all immediately free from uncontrollable urges to sin, wouldn't that be reflected in the apostles' writings, rather than the opposite?

In my view, (having been on the receiving end of plenty of false doctrine in a past situation), it is not helpful for a Christian's intention to follow Christ to be diminished by the brethren, simply because they have arrived in the assembly with spiritual baggage. Many new believers are expected to cover up their needs, rather than bring them to the Lord for attention. Thus, churches frequently alienate new Christians by not giving them appropriate time and support in their early years. Bruised and broken spirits are expected to join in church activities long before their inner man has been restored sufficiently for them to begin to bear a steady load of ministry, and then when they fade away or fall apart, no-one knows what to do with them... mainly because those kinds of church are full of people who have not dealt honestly with God on their own account.

You would not be so touchy about this topic if it was about people who had not yet professed faith in Christ. But, what did Christ do before the Holy Spirit was sent? He Himself received people who had made no lasting commitment to Him whatever, except to come for help on the occasions they needed a miracle, and He received them all, and gave them what they asked for - healing, deliverance from unclean spirits, cleansing of lepers etc. I do not see any scripture which suggests spirits came out before they were commanded to; so, either the Holy Spirit sends them away, or, someone with the authority of Christ has to send them away. That person with the authority of Christ can be the person with the unclean spirit which offends Him, and they themselves send it away by refusing to obey its appetites, until it is starved out of the believer's life. This is called resisting temptation in some cases, but not all, as here are spirits for every shade of attitude which is incompatible with the spiritual health and purity and wholeness found in Christ.

I am really not concerned about Christians dealing with their own or others' demons. What concerns me is the strength of churchian culture which resists the truth that coming to Christ is the beginning of detail work of reformation in their lives. I would be in total agreement with you for calling those who do not want to change at all, 'not real Christians'. But I am unwilling to accuse those who come to Christ when their lives are in a real mess, and as yet manifest little outward evidence of the work God is doing in their hearts. Our thinking is in desperate need of being changed when we first come to the Lord, and we do not realise just how long it can take Him to demolish the structures within which we used to live. But He is gentle, and thorough.

Now, I'm rambling, so I'll stop here.

Blessings, brother. You are highly esteemed in this neck of the woods, for your even-ness, and constancy, and steadfastness in the word.

Added Saturday, 12th January.

Dear Rex,

I apologise for not acknowledging your post # 157, sooner.

The earlier part of my reply was in reference to your admonition, which I receive, and I'm glad you felt free to speak directly to the issue you perceive.

Perhaps my responses have not been/are not what you'd have hoped. I realise that once the Lord comes into a person's life, He begins to control everything, but many people don't realise that, or, when they realise the cost, they decide they won't co-operate with Him. Are we responsible for that?

To my dear Brothers Dragonfly and Axehead

I don't want to come off as being unconcerned or thinking differently about ether one of you.
I will, do and will continue to respect you both as fellow brothers I am only concerned that you continue in the truth as I'm certain you to hope and pray the same for me as well.

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Fellowship with you will not cease in the Spirit, brother. We have had different experiences of the Lord's dealings, and are bound to testify of His goodness by using the tools closest to us, namely, (often), our own life's details. God does use time for His own purposes, and this has been one of the greatest factor in His dealings with me, apart from His faithfulness.

I did not whoosh into the life of God with a renewed mind and lifestyle, but the changes He has caused me to make, have been lasting, and long ago I gave up trying to 'get' 'my own way'. The fact is, no-one knows what their own way is, until God asks, seeks, insists... that we change to another way. We cannot assume that we are 'right', before He has challenged us.

He is not dependent on getting our foundations right, before laying the next course. He is not confined by gravity. Rather, He is capable of dealing with the deep and the superficial at the same time, and pressurising us to establish truth in one area of our lives, while at the same time using us to bless others, all the while continuing to convict and heal. He truly is the Master Builder of His Church, and, of the individuals which make it up. It is true that we have to 'get our thinking right', as one preacher used to say, before certain other understanding can fall into place, but unless we understand our old thinking is/was wrong, and our ways of estimating righteousness are naturally worthless, why would we change anything?

I see Justin has posted a long response IMO to associate himself with your testimony's
I'll not give a toehold to him nor to Catholic doctrine that is not clearly spoken of.

God bless you both and hold you as he does us all threw grace in our weakness.

Do you see where Justin is headed? A little leaven leavens the whole lump.

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In reference to 'a little leaven leavens the whole lump', that can also refer to the work of the Holy Spirit in life. The observer may see what is wrong, and conclude that nothing is right, or that God has not noticed, but I don't think God is confused, as He sees what hearts are fixed upon.

Matthew 13:33 Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.

Isaiah 29:3 Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:

2 Corinthians 10:12 For we dare not make ourselves of the number, or compare ourselves with some that commend themselves: but they measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise.


We have been purchased with a high price, and have no right to ourselves whatever. 1 Peter 1:8, 19, 20, 21.

2 Corinthians 3: 17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

Surely our liberty from law/legalism comes only as we fix our gaze on the Lord, and are changed by seeing His glory. We will not see His glory if we are fixed on other objectives, and we will not be free if we continue in sin.

John 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whoever commits sin is the servant of sin.

Both your testimony's carry a great amount of influence, use it well
Lest someone come in and rob you of the truth, only to carry others away.

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Regarding my testimony, I can speak only for myself, that I cannot testify beyond my personal experience of God, unless I am sharing objective truth from scripture. Using the prohibitions in the Old Testament, I can show how all the things listed in in the epistles as sins, are connected to idolatry, and therefore also to demonic activity.

1 Corinthians 10:14 Wherefore, my dearly beloved, flee from idolatry. 15 I speak as to wise men; judge ye what I say. 16 The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ? 17 For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread.

18 Behold Israel after the flesh: are not they which eat of the sacrifices partakers of the altar? 19 What say I then? that the idol is any thing, or that which is offered in sacrifice to idols is any thing? 20 But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils. 21 Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils. 22 Do we provoke the Lord to jealousy? are we stronger than he?

Why did Paul state that those who continued in a lifestyle of certain sins would not inherit the kingdom of God? Is it not because such a continuance in sins exhibits idolatry of one kind or another? We know that sin is a portal for demons, and self-deception and reprobation leading to destruction. It is an aspect of the broad way, against which Christ warned His followers.

While we have a responsibility always to live to the level of our growth in the Lord, (which, within the church, has the potential to edify others and influence their aspirations for themselves), each of us is demonstrating our pursuit of Him, or not, by our degree of co-operation with Him. There is no obstacle to knowing God, which cannot be overcome with His help.

Nothing which has happened to us as children, and no difficulty in daily life, gives us a bye on trusting Him the whole time. Even though God Himself sends the army of worms which rob us of natural assets, He has a better end in mind for us, where natural assets do not rank. God wants us to be at home in His family, confident of His love and provision.

Joel 2:25 And I will restore to you the years that the locust hath eaten, the cankerworm, and the caterpiller, and the palmerworm, my great army which I sent among you.

Psalm 68:6 God sets the solitary in families: he brings out those which are bound with chains: but the rebellious dwell in a dry land.

What I'm trying to get at, slightly slowly perhaps, is that I believe each person has the faculty to recognise God's attempts to enter their lives through His word, through the love of the saints, through the operation of the gifts, and prayer and general example of God-fearers in their circle, any many other ways in which He makes Himself present, such as through His creation. They make a choice, just as congregations who choose a 'pastor' who is going to tell them what they want to hear 'make a choice'. This can be a choice to believe lies and heresy, or it can be a choice to come to terms with the claims of the New Covenant:

Hebrews 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

Anyone who does not believe it's possible to 'know God', is missing the whole reason for the sacrificial death of Jesus Christ. Their problem begins right there in their unbelief, and puts Matthew 7:21 right out of their reach. They will never know our Father's will; nor do it.

Individuals in Israel possessed their 'promised' land, by committing themselves to obey the word of God, and by believing His promises to drive out their enemies as they encountered them. He did not drive them out if they had not attempted to possess that territory. Joshua 1:3


I hope these comments have not been too controversial for your liking. I know it's important to have a standard and live by it, but we cannot know how much another saint has moved according to God's will for his life, nor do we answer for their disobedience. Luke 16:31


Please do continue minister what the Lord gives you to share here. The body of Christ is made up of a gloriously motley crew. :mellow:


Actually, I have more to say, but I will finish here for now.

I've been rather reluctant to post an article I read in Charisma magazine.

But IMO it cuts threw the chase and it also supports everything Justin is promoting "let experience" dictate your doctrine.
Not a wise choice IMO. To what end will there be in following your own understanding. Proverbs 3:5-7

None the less I find this article sorely lacking in several points, the first I mentioned above and another in the bottom, where it is also mentioned in the beginning, the question of, how are you so sure these people have the HS in the first place? It never mentions the how. But If it were to be in some of these organizations that, that evidence was confirmed threw the gift of tongues, Wouldn't that call into question the need to review that doctrine as well? I don't find it as being necessary or as evidence to believers, in fact Paul said it is to the unbelievers. At the bottom of the first paragraph he popos the notion that it is of no importance whether they were saved or not, some validity to that point I don't argue, rather in the positive people need deliverance. But why is this manifestation appear to only be present in congregations that include all the particular and different flavors of the original Pentecostal church? I am concerned that the manifestations sought after as evidence, can and maybe counterfeited.

Lastly as I have just noted, changing doctrine to fit the evidence "demons in "Christians" does nothing to address the problem that we don't see this in the early church. Or that reviewing what you now teach as doctrinal basics may also be contributing to what you are experiencing. And of course people will go to great lengths to find doctrine that fits. In the absents of the words in scripture that say "the elect or man with the Holy Spirit can not be demon possessed" I suppose we will be left to your own opinion.

http://www.charismamag.com/cms/spiritledliving/081208.php

Can a Christian Have a Demon?
by John Eckhardt



There was a time when we taught in our church that Christians could not have demons. I preached long sermons stating that Christians could be oppressed, regressed, digressed, obsessed and suppressed, but never possessed. We believed that a demon could be outside a Christian oppressing him but that it could not be inside him. The reasoning I used to defend this position was that Jesus and the Holy Spirit could not live inside the same body in which demons reside.

The problem was, our experience did not match our theology. When we ministered deliverance, we frequently prayed for people we knew were born-again, Spirit-filled believers--and they manifested demons! We had to face the fact that either our experience was wrong or our doctrine was wrong.
We couldn't question our experience because we knew what we were seeing. So we began to question our theology.


In our search for truth, we realized that in the Bible, Jesus tells us to cast devils out, not to cast devils off. Obviously, for something to come out, it must be in. We finally came to the conclusion that our interpretation of the Bible had been wrong.

Now I am convinced not only that a Christian can have demons but also that there are demons that operate in the realm of theology, encouraging us to argue and debate endlessly over doctrine rather than meeting the needs of people who are hurting. Demons actually help promote the teaching that a Christian cannot have a demon, because they gain strength from staying hidden. They can operate in their destructive ways without being challenged!

Some may argue that a believer cannot be possessed. But the dismaying fact remains that born-again Christians, including leaders, are experiencing difficulties that can find no solution in natural infirmities or the endless conflict between the flesh and the Spirit.

It's time to acknowledge that we are dealing with real people who have real problems and that God did not save and commission us so we could argue over doctrine. He called us into ministry so we can help people who are hurting, wounded and bruised.

When you come into contact with someone who is controlled by demons, the answer is to cast the devils out, not to argue about whether or not the person is a Christian. The answer is to bring help to that person.

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Rex said:

I've been rather reluctant to post an article I read in Charisma magazine.

But IMO it cuts threw the chase and it also supports everything Justin is promoting "let experience" dictate your doctrine.
Not a wise choice IMO. To what end will there be in following your own understanding. Proverbs 3:5-7

None the less I find this article sorely lacking in several points, the first I mentioned above and another in the bottom, where it is also mentioned in the beginning, the question of, how are you so sure these people have the HS in the first place? It never mentions the how. But If it were to be in some of these organizations that, that evidence was confirmed threw the gift of tongues, Wouldn't that call into question the need to review that doctrine as well? I don't find it as being necessary or as evidence to believers, in fact Paul said it is to the unbelievers. At the bottom of the first paragraph he popos the notion that it is of no importance whether they were saved or not, some validity to that point I don't argue, rather in the positive people need deliverance. But why is this manifestation appear to only be present in congregations that include all the particular and different flavors of the original Pentecostal church? I am concerned that the manifestations sought after as evidence, can and maybe counterfeited.

Lastly as I have just noted, changing doctrine to fit the evidence "demons in "Christians" does nothing to address the problem that we don't see this in the early church. Or that reviewing what you now teach as doctrinal basics may also be contributing to what you are experiencing. And of course people will go to great lengths to find doctrine that fits. In the absents of the words in scripture that say "the elect or man with the Holy Spirit can not be demon possessed" I suppose we will be left to your own opinion.

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Very good article, thank you.

Other scriptures to pray about.


1Co 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
1Co 3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

Eze 7:22 My face will I turn also from them, and they shall pollute my secret place: for the robbers shall enter into it, and defile it.


2Co 6:14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?
2Co 6:15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?
2Co 6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Justin Mangonel said:

I have personally seen demons manifest out of pastors and Bible College teachers...I guess they didn't know the clear teaching of scripture. I wonder if I should believe your theology or what I saw with my own eys? Btw, if a demon speaks out of your mouth it is a pretty clear sign that it is in you.

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I have personally heard pastors and bible college teachers that didn't know God at all.
I grew up in a church environment (though an RC one), read the Bible since I was small child (about the time I was sent to attend "catechism") considered Jesus to be my master throughout my life, but was only able to genuinely believe the gospel entirely and recieve Christ as my Lord and Savior about 17 years ago and at the age of 39. The Lord doesn't commit Himself to the double minded. In order to know Him, you must seek him with your whole heart, your whole mind, not retaining doubt and disbelief. If you recall, one who came to Christ asked Him to help with his unbelief, convinced that the Lord could do just that. Christ responded to the man's faith, but without faith you can not please God. In the gospel accounts, you don't find alot of people with demons coming to Christ on their own, nor do you see any that can remain in His presence by an act of their own will. Only those who receive His Spirit have any business calling or even thinking of themselvses as Christian, so it's silly to think that a Christian can have a demon. However, it is quite common for those who are being called by God, but haven't received the gospel (or possibly even heard it) to be harrassed by demonic spirits or even inhabited by them. Before I was saved, I'd been engaged in the study of Tai Chi Chuan, a Chinese martial art, called an internal art because it involves developing and using internal spiritual energies called "chi" and "Shen." It was my practice of this art that convinced me of spiritual realities: I could feel things from other people without touching them, and could make them feel things by my will. I could use my will to manipulate these "energies" in other people, even to the point of minor healings. What I didn't know, was that these spiritual energies were actually spiritual beings using my own double mindedness to decieve me, leading me to believe that I was "spiritual" without ever coming to a saving knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ.
When I prayed with a brother in the Lord who was faithful to share the gospel with me to the satisfaction of my understanding and doubt, those "energies", actually unclean spirits, left at the moment that I recieved His Spirit. I felt them go. This isn't a proof, but it is a part of my testimony. I was delivered when I was saved. Now, it is possible for me to sell myself back into the bondage of sin by giving into my own selfish desires, but the Lord is faithful to His word and is more than willing to deliver me when I confess my sin and call upon Him, and no demon can indwell me, because His Spirit remains with me and will never leave according to His promise.
Going to a church or even standing in a pulpit doesn't make one a Christian. Simple belief in God doesn't make one a Christian (or there would be Christian devils.) Simply asking Christ to come into your heart doesn't make one a Christian (especially if the request is made in doubt or for selfish gain.)
A belief in the risen Lord with a commitment to His Lordship, the confession of our own inability to save ourselves with the faith that His own sacrifice is sufficient on our behalf, the commitment of our faithfulness to His will in subordination to our own, these are the things which He responds to. These are the things which demonstrate a saving faith, yet remain His gift to us through His word. The commitment is our part of a covenant promise, but the covenenant is satisfied in His blood and according to His will and not our own. The demons may try to prevent our commitment, but deception is their only real tool to do so. My experience gives credibility to my faith, but my faith is from God and through His word. If you think that a demon can possess you, then you can't be believing that the Lord is allmighty and committed to your salvation. If you remain uncommitted to Him with an unbelieving heart (believing that He is someone less than He has claimed to be) how can you consider yourself Christian? If this is actually the case, then I call you to repentance and to faith. The Lord is the faithful and true witness, not me, not some pastor in a pulpit, or bible teacher on the radio or television, not some astronomer or evolutionist in their shakey university towers, but the Lord alone, seated upon His throne with dominion and all power and authority, forever. Amen.

Hi Michael,

In the gospel accounts, you don't find alot of people with demons coming to Christ on their own, nor do you see any that can remain in His presence by an act of their own will.

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I just want to draw to your attention the case of Legion.

Mark 5:6 But when he saw Jesus afar off, he ran and worshipped him,

Luke 8:28 When he saw Jesus, he cried out, and fell down before him,


and this man, of whom there is no word that he was incapable of getting to synagogue except he was coerced or taken.

Mark 1:23 And there was in their synagogue a man with an unclean spirit; and he cried out,


There was also a woman who, despite her difficulties, was seeking God in a synagogue ... In other words, two 'believers' had other spirits.

Luke 13:11 And, behold, there was a woman which had a spirit of infirmity eighteen years, and was bowed together, and could in no wise lift up herself.


Note, not everyone in Israel was possessed, but those who were not, could recognise those who were. Also, a person does not need to have deliberately dabbled in the occult, as you did, for there to be opposing spirits in their lives. They can be attacked at a time when they have no resistance and no insight, and then they will need deliverance - whether they realise it or not.

dragonfly said:

Hi Michael,



I just want to draw to your attention the case of Legion.

Mark 5:6 But when he saw Jesus afar off, he ran and worshipped him,

Luke 8:28 When he saw Jesus, he cried out, and fell down before him,


and this man, of whom there is no word that he was incapable of getting to synagogue except he was coerced or taken.

Mark 1:23 And there was in their synagogue a man with an unclean spirit; and he cried out,


There was also a woman who, despite her difficulties, was seeking God in a synagogue ... In other words, two 'believers' had other spirits.

Luke 13:11 And, behold, there was a woman which had a spirit of infirmity eighteen years, and was bowed together, and could in no wise lift up herself.


Note, not everyone in Israel was possessed, but those who were not, could recognise those who were. Also, a person does not need to have deliberately dabbled in the occult, as you did, for there to be opposing spirits in their lives. They can be attacked at a time when they have no resistance and no insight, and then they will need deliverance - whether they realise it or not.

Click to expand...

Do you think that it was the demons that fell down and worshiped Him, or the man being desperate for deliverance? Being a believer doesn't indicate that a person has been saved (the devils believe and tremble.) Also Jesus taught His disciples that the Holy Spirit was with them, but would be in them, which didn't happen until after His resurrection, the point being that the spirits are subject to His Spirit and the fallen ones are cast out of His presence. There is one story of another man (or boy) that repeatedly threw himself into the fire and into water. This was the work of the unclean spirit who was aware that the law teaches purification of objects by passing them either through fire or water. Do you think that the unclean and rebellious spirit was attempting to purify itself or simply mocking God by forcing the one made in God's image to harm himself in such a manner?
The devil is perverse and delights in his perversion. When we find ourselves guilty of a perversion it tends to be crippling to our souls. Its much easier to blame the devil than to assign wickedness to where it belongs, our own deceitful hearts, but the Lord gives us room for repentance, the devil has no such claim. Until men give up the notion of their own inherent goodness they can never see the need for His.

Do you think that it was the demons that fell down and worshiped Him, or the man being desperate for deliverance?

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Mark said that it was the man. I've heard the theory that the demons dragged the man to Jesus because they had to worship Him, but that is not what the scripture says. I believe the man - anyone who has demons who is willing to be in the presence of Jesus, has power to worship Him, even before the demons are cast out. This is a very important point, because it means that church-attenders who bring themselves nigh to the word of God, have the power to seek the Lord for deliverance, without any other person knowing about it.

Being a believer doesn't indicate that a person has been saved (the devils believe and tremble.)

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But an unbeliever is not going to be delivered at all. A believer is on the right track, and if they keep yielding their life to the Lord in as much fulness as they can comprehend, He will systematically take it over, and demons will move out. It is a moot point whether or not they are saved, because we know He deals with people individually, and if HE requires them to understand they are dealing with a spirit, then He will lead them differently from someone like yourself. You knew you were engaging with other 'energies'. Many people don't have a clue what they are doing spiritually John 4:22, and so they cannot be of any use in leading others to the kind of deliverance which they themselves need - until the Lord has explained it to them. We are not in control of how He deals with other people, and we should not assume that just because they move in the gifts of the Spirit, or have a good grasp of theology, that they are demon-free. The best scriptural picture of this is the Israelites entering the promised land, and dwelling there WITH their enemies, until the Lord led them to confront each 'enemy' individually. It was not until the fourth generation (David's) that the 'heart' was conquered (Jebus, which became Zion), and David needed help to do that, just as we ourselves need the Lord's help to give ourselves to Him fully.

Also Jesus taught His disciples that the Holy Spirit was with them, but would be in them, which didn't happen until after His resurrection, the point being that the spirits are subject to His Spirit and the fallen ones are cast out of His presence.

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There is no scriptural basis for 'and the fallen ones are cast out of His presence', although they will be one day. 2 Peter 2:4, Revelation 20:10.

Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before theLord, and Satan came also among them. 7 And the Lord said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the Lord, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.

Luke 4:6 And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I will I give it. 7 If thou therefore wilt worship me, all shall be thine. 8 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Get thee behind me, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

Zechariah 3:1 And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the Lord, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him. 2 And the Lord said unto Satan, The Lordrebuke thee, O Satan; even the Lord that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?


It is pure assumption - based on experiences such as yours, which I acknowledge is a valid experience by which to testify of your personal deliverances - to assume that everyone else will be dealt with in the same way by the Lord. There is a mountain of Christian testimony about the battles which raged after they were born again, to indicate that not all demons leave peacefully. But, the Holy Spirit helps the believer to dwell in the death and resurrection of Christ, which is where the power lies to live differently from before salvation Romans 8:13, and as the believer dwells in His righteousness, demons will flee. The renewing of the mind is very important, and arrives on the heels of obedience to God. Romans 12:1, 2.

There is one story of another man (or boy) that repeatedly threw himself into the fire and into water. This was the work of the unclean spirit who was aware that the law teaches purification of objects by passing them either through fire or water. Do you think that the unclean and rebellious spirit was attempting to purify itself or simply mocking God by forcing the one made in God's image to harm himself in such a manner?

Click to expand...

In general, demons try to mar the image of God in man, and intend to force man to do things which do not glorify God's order in creation.

The devil is perverse and delights in his perversion. When we find ourselves guilty of a perversion it tends to be crippling to our souls. Its much easier to blame the devil than to assign wickedness to where it belongs, our own deceitful hearts

Click to expand...

Not all demon activity is the result of a chosen sin. Children are initiated through Satanic ritual every week, if not every day, and have no knowledge of what is wrong with them, until they begin to deal with the claims of Jesus Christ on their lives. Many 'Christian' people don't believe in the power of such Satanic rituals, and therefore have no answer for the issues which arise for the person who is afflicted by them. If doctrine is to be based on the ignorance in churches, rather than spiritual realities, then there is no hope of deliverance for some people.

You might enjoy listening to the interviews with Bill Schnoebelen (lady interviewer, blue background) which are on youtube. When he came out of the occult, and finally realised he still needed deliverance, he was initially unable to find Christians who understood that Christians can need deliverance from demons. But, he persisted in seeking for those who could help, and was eventually completely released from all bondage to demons, much of which had been at his own instigation - the result of his previous spiritual ignorance. His website is www.withoneaccord.com

Give a demon an entrance accidentally, or invite it deliberately, and like mercury they will fill the space in the life which has been opened. A little bit of renunciation goes a long way with God. Paul does not major on it, but it is a key to some born-again believers' freedoms. 2 Corinthians 4:2, 7, 11.

dragonfly said:

Mark said that it was the man. I've heard the theory that the demons dragged the man to Jesus because they had to worship Him, but that is not what the scripture says. I believe the man - anyone who has demons who is willing to be in the presence of Jesus, has power to worship Him, even before the demons are cast out. This is a very important point, because it means that church-attenders who bring themselves nigh to the word of God, have the power to seek the Lord for deliverance, without any other person knowing about it.



But an unbeliever is not going to be delivered at all. A believer is on the right track, and if they keep yielding their life to the Lord in as much fulness as they can comprehend, He will systematically take it over, and demons will move out. It is a moot point whether or not they are saved, because we know He deals with people individually, and if HE requires them to understand they are dealing with a spirit, then He will lead them differently from someone like yourself. You knew you were engaging with other 'energies'. Many people don't have a clue what they are doing spiritually John 4:22, and so they cannot be of any use in leading others to the kind of deliverance which they themselves need - until the Lord has explained it to them. We are not in control of how He deals with other people, and we should not assume that just because they move in the gifts of the Spirit, or have a good grasp of theology, that they are demon-free. The best scriptural picture of this is the Israelites entering the promised land, and dwelling there WITH their enemies, until the Lord led them to confront each 'enemy' individually. It was not until the fourth generation (David's) that the 'heart' was conquered (Jebus, which became Zion), and David needed help to do that, just as we ourselves need the Lord's help to give ourselves to Him fully.



There is no scriptural basis for 'and the fallen ones are cast out of His presence', although they will be one day. 2 Peter 2:4, Revelation 20:10.

Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before theLord, and Satan came also among them. 7 And the Lord said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the Lord, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.

Luke 4:6 And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I will I give it. 7 If thou therefore wilt worship me, all shall be thine. 8 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Get thee behind me, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

Zechariah 3:1 And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the Lord, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him. 2 And the Lord said unto Satan, The Lordrebuke thee, O Satan; even the Lord that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?


It is pure assumption - based on experiences such as yours, which I acknowledge is a valid experience by which to testify of your personal deliverances - to assume that everyone else will be dealt with in the same way by the Lord. There is a mountain of Christian testimony about the battles which raged after they were born again, to indicate that not all demons leave peacefully. But, the Holy Spirit helps the believer to dwell in the death and resurrection of Christ, which is where the power lies to live differently from before salvation Romans 8:13, and as the believer dwells in His righteousness, demons will flee. The renewing of the mind is very important, and arrives on the heels of obedience to God. Romans 12:1, 2.



In general, demons try to mar the image of God in man, and intend to force man to do things which do not glorify God's order in creation.



Not all demon activity is the result of a chosen sin. Children are initiated through Satanic ritual every week, if not every day, and have no knowledge of what is wrong with them, until they begin to deal with the claims of Jesus Christ on their lives. Many 'Christian' people don't believe in the power of such Satanic rituals, and therefore have no answer for the issues which arise for the person who is afflicted by them. If doctrine is to be based on the ignorance in churches, rather than spiritual realities, then there is no hope of deliverance for some people.

You might enjoy listening to the interviews with Bill Schnoebelen (lady interviewer, blue background) which are on youtube. When he came out of the occult, and finally realised he still needed deliverance, he was initially unable to find Christians who understood that Christians can need deliverance from demons. But, he persisted in seeking for those who could help, and was eventually completely released from all bondage to demons, much of which had been at his own instigation - the result of his previous spiritual ignorance. His website is www.withoneaccord.com

Give a demon an entrance accidentally, or invite it deliberately, and like mercury they will fill the space in the life which has been opened. A little bit of renunciation goes a long way with God. Paul does not major on it, but it is a key to some born-again believers' freedoms. 2 Corinthians 4:2, 7, 11.

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Let me qualify something. From God's perspective all that are saved, were saved from our conception in His thoughts (from the foundations of the earth), but in the experience of men through the dimension of time, some one who is saved may be possessed prior to that moment in time when the Holy Spirit is received by faith in Jesus Christ, but there is no biblical example of a person having received Christ by faith ever having then become possessed. The erroneous example of Ananias and Sapphira given by one poster in this thread makes the assumption from the text that Satan possessed the couple to make them lie to the Holy Spirit. This is just the same silliness that implies that all sin is the work of the devil and not attributable to our own evil nature. The "devil made me do it" is the common defense of liars. In Adam's case it was eve and not the devil, but the Lord has made us responsible for our own sin. The devil tempts us to sin, but in general, he doesn't need to, as sin is basic to our fallen nature. The other extreme is to blame God for our sin, but what did James say? But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death. James 1:14-15
​The reason that many professing Christians remain Christians only in profession is that they've never owned their sins, but rather laid the blame at the feet of someone else, anyone else, other than themselves, whether God, or the devil, a mother, father, wife, husband, friend, enemy, brother, sister, anyone other than themselves. A man can't cling to his own righteousness and still embrace the righteousness of God in the person of Jesus Christ; the two are mutually exclusive. Job found out the hard way, but he found repentance and restoration in the end.
I believe that you made a reference to those canaanites left in the land, but I would suggest that these represent the compromising influence of unrepentant sin rather than demonic presence. Jesus made the statement that He saw Satan fall, not that He would see Satan fall. Jesus has all power and authority, not some power and authority. How can anyone imagine that God would forgive all our sin and place His Spirit within us, yet allow us to be tormented in possession. That would make God unrighteous and there is no unrighteousness in Him. There is consequence to our sin and this can include sickness and death, but this is to our sin and not to the work of demons. God called those canaanites left in the land "thorns in your flesh," but He also revealed that He allowed their presence so that the generations of Israel would know warfare (and be trained by it.) While demonic forces are our enemies, the flesh remains the most powerful of foes. The Lord casts out demons with a word, the flesh remains a part of our nature that we are called to do battle with, yet powerless to defeat except by His Spirit. In the words of the old comic strip character Pogo, "We have met the enemy and he is us." I wouldn't really call Pogo an "authority" but this is generally biblical teaching. The unregenerate heart is at enmity with God. Those who haven't been born again by His Spirit remain creatures of wrath and the only victory possible is by the word of His testimony and the blood of our Savior. If we have believed Him and received Him, we already have the victory. The scripture says to resist the devil and he will flee from you, so how is one possessed by a defeated foe? Even the spiritual world functions according to reasonable principles. God ordained order, not chaos. If you want to hold to mutually exclusive principles there should be some reconciliation of your argument to God's will as revealed in His word, but I've yet to see one that could explain a freed captive remaining a captive except by his own will.

Michael V Pardo said:

Let me qualify something. From God's perspective all that are saved, were saved from our conception in His thoughts (from the foundations of the earth), but in the experience of men through the dimension of time, some one who is saved may be possessed prior to that moment in time when the Holy Spirit is received by faith in Jesus Christ, but there is no biblical example of a person having received Christ by faith ever having then become possessed. The erroneous example of Ananias and Sapphira given by one poster in this thread makes the assumption from the text that Satan possessed the couple to make them lie to the Holy Spirit. This is just the same silliness that implies that all sin is the work of the devil and not attributable to our own evil nature. The "devil made me do it" is the common defense of liars.

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It is true that one can come into agreement with Devils (through sin) and that is idolatry. But what kind of door does that open to the powers of darkness.

Exo 23:32 Thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor with their gods.

What happens when you come into agreement with Devils (gods)?

Exo 23:33 They shall not dwell in thy land, lest they make thee sin against me: for if thou serve their gods, it will surely be a snare unto thee.

Silly isn't it? "lest they make thee sin against me". Well, that is what my Bible says. Once the powers of darkness get a foothold in someone's life they will influence their mind and will to "sin against" God. All sin is still our responsibility because we are the ones that either come into agreement with God's voice or Satan's voice. Be very careful what you say "Yes" to, with your heart and actions.

Michael V Pardo said:

I believe that you made a reference to those canaanites left in the land, but I would suggest that these represent the compromising influence of unrepentant sin rather than demonic presence. Jesus made the statement that He saw Satan fall, not that He would see Satan fall. Jesus has all power and authority, not some power and authority. How can anyone imagine that God would forgive all our sin and place His Spirit within us, yet allow us to be tormented in possession.

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That would not be His fault. I thought you were just talking about taking personal responsibility. Now, you are suggesting that God would be to blame for a Christian coming into agreement with Devils. Some Christians have received "another spirit" in believing doctrines of demons.

2Co_11:4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

Michael V Pardo said:

That would make God unrighteous and there is no unrighteousness in Him.

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Doesn't make Him unrighteous. It make you and I unrighteous if we want to hang out with unclean spirits.

Michael V Pardo said:

There is consequence to our sin and this can include sickness and death, but this is to our sin and not to the work of demons.

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Then what do you think of this sick woman who had a spirit of infirmity?

Luke_13:11 And, behold, there was a woman which had a spirit of infirmity eighteen years, and was bowed together, and could in no wise lift up herself.

Michael V Pardo said:

God called those canaanites left in the land "thorns in your flesh," but He also revealed that He allowed their presence so that the generations of Israel would know warfare (and be trained by it.) While demonic forces are our enemies, the flesh remains the most powerful of foes. The Lord casts out demons with a word, the flesh remains a part of our nature that we are called to do battle with, yet powerless to defeat except by His Spirit. In the words of the old comic strip character Pogo, "We have met the enemy and he is us." I wouldn't really call Pogo an "authority" but this is generally biblical teaching. The unregenerate heart is at enmity with God. Those who haven't been born again by His Spirit remain creatures of wrath and the only victory possible is by the word of His testimony and the blood of our Savior. If we have believed Him and received Him, we already have the victory. The scripture says to resist the devil and he will flee from you, so how is one possessed by a defeated foe? Even the spiritual world functions according to reasonable principles. God ordained order, not chaos. If you want to hold to mutually exclusive principles there should be some reconciliation of your argument to God's will as revealed in His word, but I've yet to see one that could explain a freed captive remaining a captive except by his own will.

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We are commanded by the Lord to resist the enemy. If the hedges of God's protection come down in our lives it doesn't mean God is unjust, it means we have allowed the enemy in by opening a door for him. Was it God's fault that the Caananites, Amorites, Amalekites, Girgashites, etc, etc, attacked Israel? No. The powers of darkness behind these nations are still here today.

(Satan is the father of lies and dwells in high places - pride).

That is why God could promise rest and peace for His people, even in a land inhabited by enemies. He had already rendered those enemies powerless, and He told the children of Israel, "By little and little I will drive them out from before thee, until thou be increased, and inherit the land" Exo 23:30

It is important to remember that to "inherit" means "to occupy by driving out previous tenants and possessing in their place". The children of Israel had every reason to be sober and alert. God had cautioned them, "Take heed to thyself, lest thou make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land whither thou goest, lest it be for a snare in the midst of thee: But ye shall destroy their altars, break their images, and cut down their groves: For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God: Exo 34:12-14

If they compromised God's word concerning the nations in the land, the children of Israel would be seduced away from God and into idolatry. THE ENEMIES HAD BEEN RENDERED POWERLESS; God had already promised to drive them out. But they wouldn't be driven out if the children of Israel made a covenant with them allowing them to stay. God had warned the children of Israel to completely destroy everything (altars, images and groves) which would give place to another god. We have the same warning in Ephesians - "Neither give place to the devil". Eph 4:27

Again and again we see that Israel's literal journey parallels our spiritual journey.

So who were these nations God had called by name? Who were the enemies that MUST NOT BE ALLOWED TO REMAIN in the place of His inheritance (You). And how does the fact that they had to be driven out apply to us today?

Interestingly, the name of every enemy has to do with selfishness and self-centeredness. They are the same "nations" (principalities) that we must each fight if we truly want to possess the land.

And he said, Behold, I make a covenant: before all thy people I will do marvels, such as have not been done in all the earth, nor in any nation: and all the people among which thou art shall see the work of the LORD: for it is a terrible thing that I will do with thee. Observe thou that which I command thee this day: behold, I drive out before thee the AMORITE, and the CANAANITE, and the HITTITE, and the PERIZZITE, and the HIVITE, and the JEBUSITE. Exo 34:10-11

AMORITES: PUBLICITY, PROMINENCE and PRIDE (worshipping the gods of I, Me, My). THE FIRST THING GOD DOES when He begins to deal with us is to humble our pride. Satan, the father of lies, tells us that pride is our best weapon of self-defense (of defending or protecting who we really are). Pride is a pretender. It is obsessed with putting on a good, self-confident front - even when we're cowering behind it, desperately needy and afraid.

CANAANITES: REJECTION (What about me? My feelings are hurt)
Canaan was one of the sons of Ham, who was one of the sons of Noah. The name, Canaan, represents rejection. Just as Adam and Eve were rejected by God and driven away from His presence because of rebellion, Ham made judgments against Noah and became accursed. Rejection already has a place in our lives when we are born of in Adam's image. Our fallen nature is separated from God; we are not whole. We need to feel like we have "a place"; we need to feel like we "belong".

HITTITES: FEAR (I am afraid that something will happen to me or to the people and things that I love). The Hittites were also descendants of Ham. The name "Hittite" means terror, and comes from a root word which means "to break down through violence, confusion or fear." It can also mean "broken, dismayed or in dread or fear".

PERIZZITES: UNFORGIVENESS (Look at what they have done to me; I'll never forgive them or let them hurt me again). The root word means "to separate". The Perizzites were first mentioned in the story of Lot and Abram in Genesis 13. Their herdsmen were in so much strife that Lot and Abram had to separate themselves from each other.

HIVITES: REBELLION
If you trace the word "Hivite" back to its root, you will find that it means "Eve", who was the mother of rebellion. The Hivites were first mentioned in Genesis chapter 10 as descendants of Ham. In Genesis 34, Dinah, Jacob's daughter, was defiled by a man of the Hivites when she went out from the house of Jacob (Israel) to "see the daughters of the land".

JEBUSITES: DEFILEMENT
The name "Jebusite" means "to trample, loathe, tread down or tread under, to be polluted". The Jebusites were a picture of the defilement which comes into our lives and into our souls through sexual lust, impurity and perversion.

Though the Lord gave the land, Israel still had to possess what was given.
Deu_4:1 Now therefore hearken, O Israel, unto the statutes and unto the judgments, which I teach you, for to do them, that ye may live, and go in and possess the land which the LORD God of your fathers giveth you.

And if we do not drive them out there are consequences. The will vex us to no end.
Num_33:55 But if ye will not drive out the inhabitants of the land from before you; then it shall come to pass, that those which ye let remain of them shall be pricks in your eyes, and thorns in your sides, and shall vex you in the land wherein ye dwell.

So, instead of driving out the enemy, "Christians" just say, "well, I'm not perfect and I will probably just have this habit the rest of my life". Do you know that you are being lied to? That logic is being whispered in your ear and convincing you to let the enemy stay so you don't drive them out.

Every heard people say, "Well, he's got his demons" or "he's got his demons under control"? Many are inexplicity tormented by things they don't understand. They get dressed in their Sunday best and go to church and put on a good face, but just below the surface they are living lives of quiet desperation for the "sins" that they are barely maintain control over and keeping them from taking over their life.

Did you know that through Jesus Christ you can be completely free of the Enemy? Jesus wants you to be able to say what He said. "The wicked one cometh but he has nothing in me". Here is the exact verse.


Joh_14:30 Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.

Now, isn't the Lord's choice of words interesting? Nothing IN ME.

Through Jesus Christ you can be completely FREE and PEACEFUL, within.

Axehead