The Doctrine of OSAS

justaname · Nov 4, 2015

Wormwood,

From what I see a major disagreement we have is in the issue of the depravity of man. Here is probably the major dividing issue. I do see man depraved and enslaved into sin. He is spiritually dead.

I read the Jack Cottrell quote and find it to be lacking. For instance I did show God chooses individuals and places them in Christ. Also Mr. Cottrell allows the dead to make decisions...something I have never witnessed. Further I quote Jesus in a different passage... And he said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father." - John 6:65

To apply the notion of God selecting people groups to all passages dealing with God's selection based on a particular interpretation of a specific Romans passage is
eisegesis.

Then Jack does not deal with the glaring passage convicting all men in Romans...

9 What then? Are we Jews any better off? No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin,
10 as it is written: "None is righteous, no, not one;
11 no one understands; no one seeks for God.
12 All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one."
13 "Their throat is an open grave; they use their tongues to deceive." "The venom of asps is under their lips."
14 "Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness."
15 "Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16 in their paths are ruin and misery,
17 and the way of peace they have not known."
18 "There is no fear of God before their eyes." - Romans 3:9-18

No one seeks for God. This single passage is succinct and clear.

All have turned aside and none do good. This passage solidifies any ambiguity.

Without God's grace none would come to faith for they have all turned aside and none seek Him. Remember grace by definition is unwarranted favor.

Cottrell and I agree though that men do choose God, yet I believe we have the order in disagreement. God chooses us before the foundations of the world. We come to choose Him some time after our birth and after He has chased us with the gospel message. Those who come to faith are fore known and God's grace has been upon them from before their birth.

This is simply a quick response to give some response. Clearly as we both know this topic can consume hours of discussion with neither side gaining ground. It is clear we have difference in interpreting the Scriptures. Yet that being said I truly believe our agreements far outweigh our disagreements.

Man is totally depraved yet God's elect will come to Him freely. Jesus' atonement is efficient for all yet effective only for those who are believing. God's sovereign authority is above the will of men and the circumstances of the universe. Thus those saved are only those who endure because these are chosen by God.

You asked why I am not a universalist...because this is not what the Scriptures present in my estimation. God has and does go over the will of men often. Every act of judgement enacted here on earth goes against man's will. Striking Paul blind went against his will to persecute Christians.

Man's will is set on sinning. We are slaves to sin. Man's heart is desperately wicked. It takes an act of God to change men.

Finally I would not say men are "made to yield" rather God's grace allows them to freely yield. Those not in His grace can not yield, they are under wrath and in rebellion.

God did not predetermine man's fall, yet Jesus was slain before the foundations of the world. God does not force man to follow thier lust, they do this on their own accord.

Where I think Spurgeon is accurate is God is sovereign, not free will. God's providence is not lacking in any regard. This is not in tension with man's ability to choose, yet man is in bondage to sin.

It does not depend on man's ability to will or run, but on God's mercy.

God's invitation as whosoever will is genuine for He does not desire that any perish. Man need only to turn to Him. It is not God that restrains man from turning to Him, it is man himself restraining. Only through God's mercy and grace are we able to come to Him. In His mercy God is glorified. In His justice God is glorified. He is the potter and has complete rights over the clay.

Wormwood · Nov 5, 2015

justaname,

Thanks for your response. I agree that our agreements outweigh our disagreements and I am thankful for that. No matter our ultimate conclusions on this issue, we both agree that our only hope and salvation is the grace of God in Jesus Christ. We are brothers in Christ and will likely be able to tease each other for all eternity based on which of us is determined to be right in that day

. As for your comments...

I do see man depraved and enslaved into sin. He is spiritually dead.

I would agree (as would Jack, based on the writings in his book). However, the question he raises is this, "What does it mean to be depraved and spiritually dead?" I agree that we are corrupt, sinful and that none seek God. However, does human depravity and spiritual death mean a person cannot even accept the Gospel? This is where Jack and I would claim that "total depravity" goes beyond what is written. The Bible simply does not say that man is so depraved that they cannot even accept the Gospel. In fact, it would seem that the underlying theme of the NT is that all people are expected to be able to respond positively to the Gospel. As Cottrell points out in the quote above, Jesus was lifted up to "draw all men." If God is selective in his call and enabling people to respond to the Gospel, then this simply would not be a true statement. God would not be drawing "all men" but only those select individuals he enables to respond to the Gospel.

No one seeks for God. This single passage is succinct and clear.
All have turned aside and none do good. This passage solidifies any ambiguity.
Without God's grace none would come to faith for they have all turned aside and none seek Him. Remember grace by definition is unwarranted favor.

Again, this is where I would think you are pushing the text beyond what it actually says. It says none do good and none seek God. Yet it doesnt say that, when approached by the message of God's grace, a person cannot accept it. Rather, the NT is very clear that not only does God expect people to embrace his message of grace in Christ, but that he holds men accountable when they do not accept it...because they should be able to.

“But the righteousness based on faith says, “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’ ” (that is, to bring Christ down) “or ‘Who will descend into the abyss?’ ” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim); because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” (Romans 10:6–9, ESV)

I think the clear implication in these verses is that accepting the Gospel is not beyond anyone. The Word is readily available and one does not need to perform a supernatural feat to embrace it (Christ already performed the supernatural feat of descending to earth and being raised from the dead!). Quite the contrary, one only needs to accept and confess, and in this way, "anyone" who calls on the Lord can be saved. With regards to the sinner being fully capable of responding to the Gospel, I again point to Cottrell's quote where he says,

That faith precedes regeneration and is a prerequisite for it is specifically affirmed in Col 2:12, “Having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God.” Here “raised up with Him” refers to regeneration (see v. 13, “He made you alive together with Him”), and faith is the means by which the regeneration is received: we are “raised … through faith.” The spiritually dead unbeliever makes his decision to believe of his own free choice, moved by the power of the gospel, before being “raised up” in regeneration. See Eph 1:13–14, where “hearing” and “believing” are aorist participles, suggesting that these acts precede the action of the main verb, the sealing with the Spirit (see also Acts 5:32; 15:7–9; 16:30; 1 Peter 1:22).

Jack Cottrell, The Faith Once for All: Bible Doctrine for Today (Joplin, MO: College Press Pub., 2002), 200.

God chooses us before the foundations of the world.

We should examine this verse, because I do not think it teaches what you are implying.

Man is totally depraved yet God's elect will come to Him freely. Jesus' atonement is efficient for all yet effective only for those who are believing. God's sovereign authority is above the will of men and the circumstances of the universe. Thus those saved are only those who endure because these are chosen by God.

You asked why I am not a universalist...because this is not what the Scriptures present in my estimation. God has and does go over the will of men often. Every act of judgement enacted here on earth goes against man's will. Striking Paul blind went against his will to persecute Christians.

Again, they only come to him freely because he causes them to, correct? My question to you is this: "If God chooses a person, can they say 'no?'" If people, in your view, come to Him freely then this must mean they are able to say, yes or no. Are you suggesting that when God moves on a persons heart to enable them to respond to the Gospel, they can reject it? Does God awaken those he has not chosen? Does anyone that God causes to no longer be "totally depraved" ever reject the Gospel? If your answer is "no" then I again have to question your concept of "freedom." If your answer is "Yes" then we are not very far apart. God's "chosen" are thus "chosen" before the foundation of the world based on God's foreknowledge of their free-will response and not based on God's irresistable, pre-determined plan to elect some and condemn others.

I agree that God does go against man's will. Certainly he does! I do not believe that God is completely subject to man's whims and desires. The question is, "does man have any freedom to choose" and not "does man always have complete freedom to choose." Yes, man has freedom to choose. That does not mean that in order for free will to exist, that it must be irresistable. God blinds eyes and hardens hearts. God brings Christ from the dead when man seeks to eliminate him from the earth. God brings justice and judgment when man desires only corruption. Man wants to live forever, but God limits his days. God certainly imposes his will on man and all of human history will ultimately culminate in the establishment of God's will on earth as it is in heaven. I dont think we have to look at this issue as either God controls every act and outcome through absolute divine determinism or man has complete control over all of human history. We do not have to swing the pendulum all the way to one side or the other. I think the Bible clearly teaches that God is at work to fulfill his will and plan for the world in Jesus Christ and that man also has freedom to assert his will (which often brings judgment and the wrath of God because man acts in ways contrary to the will of God).

justaname · Nov 6, 2015

Wormwood said:
justaname,

Thanks for your response. I agree that our agreements outweigh our disagreements and I am thankful for that. No matter our ultimate conclusions on this issue, we both agree that our only hope and salvation is the grace of God in Jesus Christ. We are brothers in Christ and will likely be able to tease each other for all eternity based on which of us is determined to be right in that day . As for your comments...

I would agree (as would Jack, based on the writings in his book). However, the question he raises is this, "What does it mean to be depraved and spiritually dead?" I agree that we are corrupt, sinful and that none seek God. However, does human depravity and spiritual death mean a person cannot even accept the Gospel? This is where Jack and I would claim that "total depravity" goes beyond what is written. The Bible simply does not say that man is so depraved that they cannot even accept the Gospel. In fact, it would seem that the underlying theme of the NT is that all people are expected to be able to respond positively to the Gospel. As Cottrell points out in the quote above, Jesus was lifted up to "draw all men." If God is selective in his call and enabling people to respond to the Gospel, then this simply would not be a true statement. God would not be drawing "all men" but only those select individuals he enables to respond to the Gospel.

Ultimately not all will respond to the Gospel, nor will all even hear the Gospel. God's call is selective else all would hear the call from the point of resurrection. What of all the first nation peoples in the Americas? What of all the distant tribes in Africa? How about the Chinese or Japanese? No the call is selective else all would hear it, historically all do not. This then leads to the conclusion the passage must not interpret the way you want it to.

Rather I like this interpretation of this passage better...

The double νῦν (nyn, now) in Jesus’ response in 12:31 is most striking, harking back to Jesus’ statement in 12:23 (in response to the Greeks’ coming) that the hour has come for the Son of Man to be glorified. Another link between 12:23 and 12:31 is the “Gentile connection.” What is merely intimated in Jesus’ evasive response to the Greeks in the earlier passage is now spelled out in greater detail (Carson 1991: 444; Barrett 1978: 427): it is only subsequent to his cross-death (the third link: compare 12:24 with 12:33) that Jesus will draw “all people,” including Gentiles, to himself (cf. 10:16; 11:51–52).

Köstenberger, A. J. (2004). John (pp. 384–385). Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Academic.

Wormwood said:
Again, this is where I would think you are pushing the text beyond what it actually says. It says none do good and none seek God. Yet it doesnt say that, when approached by the message of God's grace, a person cannot accept it. Rather, the NT is very clear that not only does God expect people to embrace his message of grace in Christ, but that he holds men accountable when they do not accept it...because they should be able to.

This too is problematic. Firstly we know man's heart is desperately wicked. Why would he choose to submit to Jesus' Lordship? None seek God, so then God must seek them. Here we I think we agree that God must select them to first hear the gospel message, yet what causes them to do good by believing the message? Remember they are dead. They are in rebellion to God. Dare I say they even seek to dethrone God and place themselves on the throne. I could go on about the depravity, yet I know you get the point.

Then we have the simple problem of belief or faith. The cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, and all are perishing until they come to belief. Do you see the conundrum? This is not simply choosing chocolate ice-cream over vanilla. No this is belief and trust in God's message of salvation, abandonment of any other righteousness besides Christ's. First they must believe God exists. Then they must believe the God of Abraham is the one true God and that Jesus is the Christ. Finally they must believe in the resurrection. All this for those who are spiritually dead? Do you not see it is only through God's mercy and grace and a supernatural working of the Holy Spirit that man yields to God?

Wormwood said:
I think the clear implication in these verses is that accepting the Gospel is not beyond anyone. The Word is readily available and one does not need to perform a supernatural feat to embrace it (Christ already performed the supernatural feat of descending to earth and being raised from the dead!).

The Word is not and was not readily available as you put it. This is a misconception and a false teaching. Belief does not come with an on/off switch either. You can choose to believe the world is flat...do you? You can believe the moon is made of cheese...do you? Remember the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, just as foolish as a cheese moon.

Wormwood said:
Quite the contrary, one only needs to accept and confess, and in this way, "anyone" who calls on the Lord can be saved. With regards to the sinner being fully capable of responding to the Gospel, I again point to Cottrell's quote where he says,

I would tweak Cottrell by saying...

The spiritually dead unbeliever makes his decision to believe of his own free choice, moved by the power of the Holy Spirit, before being “raised up” in regeneration.

Wormwood said:
We should examine this verse, because I do not think it teaches what you are implying.

Sure...yet we do know the Lamb was slain before the foundations of the world. All names in the Lamb's Book of Life were written in it from before the foundations of the world. So to be chosen from before the foundations of the world seems self explanatory.

Wormwood said:
Again, they only come to him freely because he causes them to, correct? My question to you is this: "If God chooses a person, can they say 'no?'"

You need to clarify what you mean by "choose." If you mean to hear the gospel message then many say no. If you mean choose for salvation then I would say people have the ability to say no, yet they will not. I say this not because of irresistible grace rather God's selection of those for salvation is perfect. Those selected for salvation receive it for God knows the end of all He has selected. God is first cause, yet man chooses freely. Here we have the words of the Christ regarding His disciples...

If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you.

As He chose the twelve, so He chooses all who follow after the twelve. This is proven though the casting of lots to replace Judas. Through the selecting of Saul/Paul. Also here...(1 Corinthians 1:27-30)

Wormwood said:
If people, in your view, come to Him freely then this must mean they are able to say, yes or no. Are you suggesting that when God moves on a persons heart to enable them to respond to the Gospel, they can reject it?

Yes they can reject, yet they will not. Some accept the gospel only to later reject it, yet these are not ever being saved from God's perspective.

Wormwood said:
Does God awaken those he has not chosen? Does anyone that God causes to no longer be "totally depraved" ever reject the Gospel? If your answer is "no" then I again have to question your concept of "freedom." If your answer is "Yes" then we are not very far apart. God's "chosen" are thus "chosen" before the foundation of the world based on God's foreknowledge of their free-will response and not based on God's irresistable, pre-determined plan to elect some and condemn others.

God's choosing is based on His mercy and grace according to the purpose of His will. You seem to think everyone must get a fair shot, yet this is not the case. God is Holy and sovereign and all have sinned against Him. If He chooses to show His mercy to some will you judge Him?

For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

Salvation is the gift yet not any more than God's grace is. Unmerited favor...if God chooses based on how you respond to the gospel message you would have merited His favor. The gift analogy is not applicable. The obstacle of the stumbling block in Zion will trip all who are blinded by Satan. It takes an act of God to remove this blindness.

Those not chosen by God remain spiritually dead due to their self pride and hatred for God, not due to God. Those who have God's grace from before birth are the only ones who come to faith. Again it does not depend on the man...but on God.

Man's freedom is in bondage to sin and death. Man's freedom is his ability to hate God in this world until judgement. God would be just in punishing all men and condemning all to hell. It is by His mercy and grace that some come to salvation, in such He is glorified. Not because some men made a better decision than others, but because God is merciful.

Who can resist His will you say? The potter has rights over the clay...

11 “Say to them, ‘As I live!’ declares the Lord GOD, ‘I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn back, turn back from your evil ways! Why then will you die, O house of Israel?’

God's plea is genuine, yet man's neck is stiff. God is not at fault for Jesus' death is efficient for all of creation for all of eternity. Those who refuse the gift do so from their own will. Those who accept do so through their own will with the help of God's grace, with the help of the Holy Spirit.

Whosoever will is on one side of the doorway while God's Elect is on the other side once you enter and look back at the header. (J Vernon McGhee)

Wormwood said:
I agree that God does go against man's will. Certainly he does! I do not believe that God is completely subject to man's whims and desires. The question is, "does man have any freedom to choose" and not "does man always have complete freedom to choose." Yes, man has freedom to choose. That does not mean that in order for free will to exist, that it must be irresistable. God blinds eyes and hardens hearts. God brings Christ from the dead when man seeks to eliminate him from the earth. God brings justice and judgment when man desires only corruption. Man wants to live forever, but God limits his days. God certainly imposes his will on man and all of human history will ultimately culminate in the establishment of God's will on earth as it is in heaven. I dont think we have to look at this issue as either God controls every act and outcome through absolute divine determinism or man has complete control over all of human history. We do not have to swing the pendulum all the way to one side or the other. I think the Bible clearly teaches that God is at work to fulfill his will and plan for the world in Jesus Christ and that man also has freedom to assert his will (which often brings judgment and the wrath of God because man acts in ways contrary to the will of God).

Here we agree...

justaname · Nov 6, 2015

Look to how the Christ replies to Peter's statement of faith...

15 He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?"
16 Simon Peter replied, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."
17 And Jesus answered him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven. - Matthew 16:15-17

Blessed are you! It is not though flesh and blood that you came to this realization, but by God. This can be said of all who come to faith.

Wormwood · Nov 6, 2015

Ultimately not all will respond to the Gospel, nor will all even hear the Gospel. God's call is selective else all would hear the call from the point of resurrection. What of all the first nation peoples in the Americas? What of all the distant tribes in Africa? How about the Chinese or Japanese? No the call is selective else all would hear it, historically all do not. This then leads to the conclusion the passage must not interpret the way you want it to.

I think the point is that God's call is universal. It is not because God is unwilling that all do not hear or all do not respond. In fact, Acts 17:26-27 indicates that God is working in a way to help every person know him. The problem is that humans resist the Gospel and Christians can be selfish. This is why the Gospel is not spread and why many do not hear. There is a big difference in saying not all hear or are willing to respond and saying that God will not permit them to hear or respond because it doesn't fit his predetermined plan.

Rather I like this interpretation of this passage better...

Yes, I think it is possible that Jesus has the Gentiles in mind. I do not see that concept being excluded from my interpretation. However, it is quite a different thing to say that Jesus has "only the select, predetermined Gentiles in mind." Moreover, Jesus does not say pantas ethne (all nations). He simply says "all." So, I do not think different ethnic groups are excluded from this statement, but this wording seems to intentionally emphasize that this call is universal and that no one is excluded from the call...national or otherwise.

Why would he choose to submit to Jesus' Lordship? None seek God, so then God must seek them. Here we I think we agree that God must select them to first hear the gospel message, yet what causes them to do good by believing the message? Remember they are dead. They are in rebellion to God. Dare I say they even seek to dethrone God and place themselves on the throne. I could go on about the depravity, yet I know you get the point.

First, I think man chooses to submit to the Lordship of Christ because God's grace is embedded in the message itself. The Gospel is the "power of God" for the salvation of all who believe. There is a power in the message that is apparent in its proclamation. In fact, this is why I believe inspiration is so significant. We need an inspired message because that message is preserved by the Spirit of God and contains the powerful truth of Jesus. If God has to spiritually awaken a person before they can believe, then inspiration is meaningless. If the Spirit has to empower a person to hear, than the power is not in the preached Word, but in the intervening awakening of the Spirit that allows, if not mandates, a person hear, understand and believe. No, I believe the Word is inspired so that it could be heard, understood and believed upon by anyone. Again, if this is not the case, the Bible might as well be written in code and placed under lock and key. It is useless without God giving the key to which he only provides for his predetermined few. This concept is just not biblical in my estimation.

Second, it is true that people are wicked, depraved and helplessly corrupt. Yet, this corruption means that they cannot help themselves and do not seek God. However, when God seeks them, and they hear the powerful message of a God who loves them even in their wickedness, to the point of crucifying his sinless Son to cleanse them and restore them, they can desire that. This is not an inner light that brings about a person's own illumination by their own virtue. Rather, it is an external light from the Gospel that is shined on a person's wickedness and offers them love and a power from beyond them that can change them. A person does have the power to remain in that light, or, like a cockroach, flee back into the darkness. Either way, it is not from within that a person is exposed and convicted, but by the light of the Gospel. There is no light in man and man cannot produce light of himself. He is dark and dead. Yet the Gospel shines light on all who hear it and when they are exposed to the light, they have a choice to accept and remain in the light or reject it. Most reject it because they love darkness. They do not reject it because God will not allow them to love the light. This is contrary to everything the NT teaches about God's love and salvation...imo.

Then we have the simple problem of belief or faith. The cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, and all are perishing until they come to belief. Do you see the conundrum? This is not simply choosing chocolate ice-cream over vanilla. No this is belief and trust in God's message of salvation, abandonment of any other righteousness besides Christ's. First they must believe God exists. Then they must believe the God of Abraham is the one true God and that Jesus is the Christ. Finally they must believe in the resurrection. All this for those who are spiritually dead? Do you not see it is only through God's mercy and grace and a supernatural working of the Holy Spirit that man yields to God?

The reason the perishing are perishing is because they see the cross as foolish. God used his weakness to overpower the world's strength. Those who are proud and wise in their own eyes cannot understand the cross. This is not because God will not allow them to understand it as you propose. It is because God chose a manner to save the world that the strong, wise and arrogant would not accept it because these are not the characteristics of godliness. This is why the prostitutes went to Jesus...not because God gave them grace he didnt give to the religious leaders, but because they knew they were sick and saw in Jesus a physician who could heal them. That is Paul's point to the Corinthians. The way of Christ is the way of humility, deference, and weakness. Those Corinthians who were bragging about their gifts and fighting over which leader and group was better (Paul, Apollos, etc.) were acting like the world rather than in the way of Christ.

Also, Paul tells us in Romans that the Gentiles know the truth that God exists but suppress it. The problem is not that they cannot expect to know because of their sin, but that they suppress what is evident because of their sin. Abraham believed God and it was credited to him as righteousness. Abraham was not made right inwardly so he could believe God. No, he believed and was made right before God as a result. The Bible teaches that all people should be able to believe, because the truth is apparent. The reason they dont is because they love darkness and reject the light. This is why God judges them...not because he wont let them see, but because they have closed their own eyes and have refused to see. Jesus came so the blind could see, but those who say, "we see" would be made blind.

The Word is not and was not readily available as you put it.

Even in the NT, Paul says the Gospel had gone throughout the known world. I find the notion that people are going to hell because God will not let them see the light to be very problematic. It is like chaining and blindfolding kids to a wall, placing candy in the center of a gym and telling all the kids to go get the candy. They all struggle and strain to get the candy but cant because they are chained. Then, you go and unlock and take the blindfold off 3 of the 30 kids and they run to the center and get the candy. Yet, you continue to tell the other kids to go get the candy and condemn them for not responding when all along, you had the power to make them see and free them to get the candy. I do not think this is a biblical picture of God's nature and character.

Yes they can reject, yet they will not. Some accept the gospel only to later reject it, yet these are not ever being saved from God's perspective.

So, according to your view, then a person can reject the Gospel if they have been spiritually awakened..and some do? This makes your view very much Wesleyan with a notion of God's preventing grace (which is resistible) being necessary to go before and allow a person to believe. I am okay with this view, but I would differ with Wesley on the notion of preventing grace.

You seem to think everyone must get a fair shot, yet this is not the case. God is Holy and sovereign and all have sinned against Him. If He chooses to show His mercy to some will you judge Him?

This is not what I am saying at all. I am saying God wants all to have a fair shot. He has made it so that all are able to respond and desires His saving message to be spread. Will all hear the message? No. Is this because God has not elected those individuals? No. It is because there are dark forces in the world that seek to prohibit people from hearing, knowing and being saved. Again, I agree not all have the same opportunity. Yet, what I am saying is that the lack of opportunity is not because of God's predetermined plan, but because of human sinfulness and spiritual powers and evil forces that seek to keep people in darkness. I hope that makes better sense. I am out of time. Thanks for taking the time to reply!

justaname · Nov 6, 2015

This one verse argues against most of your post regarding coming to faith...

The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. - 1 Corinthians 2:14

The entire Bible is of the Spirit. It is by the Spirit men are moved to believe the gospel and come to faith. If the gospel message moved men to belief then all who simply hear the gospel would come to belief.

Spiritually blinded by Satan. Dead people. Desperately wicked hating God and the things of God. In rebellion. Natural people. All are stricken with pride. Man loves darkness and hates the light because his deeds are evil. The gospel message is a beacon of light in this dark world. It is resisted by the natural man. All people should believe, but they don't because they love the darkness rather than the light. God is not restraining them from understanding, they restrain themselves. God opens the eyes of some...

It is through God's kindness that we come to repentance. Look to the definition of repentance...it is about changing the thoughts.

We are saved because God saves us, not because we make better decisions than others. It takes the supernatural to overcome the natural. I agree the gospel is the power of God for salvation to those who believe. The gospel is the vehicle God uses in His plan of salvation for all who come to Him in faith.

ATP · Nov 7, 2015

Free will? Hmm..

1 Sam 26:12 NIV So David took the spear and water jug near Saul’s head, and they left. No one saw or knew about it, nor did anyone wake up. They were all sleeping, because the Lord had put them into a deep sleep.

ATP · Nov 7, 2015

Where in the NT does it say the Spirit of the Lord does this after resurrection?

1 Sam 16:14 NIV Now the Spirit of the Lord had departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the Lord tormented him.

Wormwood · Nov 7, 2015

justaname,

Thanks for your response. I do think looking at 1 Cor. 2:14 is very important for this discussion. I believe this text (and many other verses in this context) are widely misapplied. I do not have time to address it today. I will try to write some comments about my understanding of these verses on Monday. Have a blessed weekend!

StanJ · Nov 7, 2015

justaname said:
This one verse argues against most of your post regarding coming to faith...

The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. - 1 Corinthians 2:14

The entire Bible is of the Spirit. It is by the Spirit men are moved to believe the gospel and come to faith. If the gospel message moved men to belief then all who simply hear the gospel would come to belief.

Spiritually blinded by Satan. Dead people. Desperately wicked hating God and the things of God. In rebellion. Natural people. All are stricken with pride. Man loves darkness and hates the light because his deeds are evil. The gospel message is a beacon of light in this dark world. It is resisted by the natural man. All people should believe, but they don't because they love the darkness rather than the light. God is not restraining them from understanding, they restrain themselves. God opens the eyes of some...

It is through God's kindness that we come to repentance. Look to the definition of repentance...it is about changing the thoughts.

We are saved because God saves us, not because we make better decisions than others. It takes the supernatural to overcome the natural. I agree the gospel is the power of God for salvation to those who believe. The gospel is the vehicle God uses in His plan of salvation for all who come to Him in faith.

I of course totally accept what Paul states here, but the problem arises in defining WHO is filled with the Holy Spirit and who is not.
As we know from scripture that Paul was, and that some believers were, but some were not, up to the point they were, then I would have to say that still happens, and unless one IS filled with the Holy Spirit, one cannot claim to be able to accept the things of the Spirit, when one has NEVER accepted the HOLY Spirit.

mjrhealth · Nov 7, 2015

The entire Bible is of the Spirit.

Which one

Mat_16:23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

In all His Love

justaname · Nov 8, 2015

mjrhealth said:
Which one

Mat_16:23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

In all His Love

Why not tell us which one you think...

StanJ · Nov 8, 2015

justaname said:
Why not tell us which one you think...

The Bible is BREATHED of God, which means to actually be able to imbibe or assimilate it, one must have the Holy Spirit resident in their lives, as Jesus said, and why He told the Apostles to wait for the Holy Spirit.

Jun2u · Nov 8, 2015

StanJ said:
The Bible is BREATHED of God, which means to actually be able to imbibe or assimilate it, one must have the Holy Spirit resident in their lives, as Jesus said, and why He told the Apostles to wait for the Holy Spirit.

I don't know what you mean by the term, “the Bible is BREATHED of God”. What I do know is “holy men of old spoke as God the Holy Spirit moved them”, 2Pe 1:21.

Are you saying that the Holy Spirit was not in the world until He was poured out in Acts? Yes, the language of scripture is “poured out”. Do you even know the meaning of the term “poured out” like water being poured out? Can the Holy Spirit be poured out?

To God Be The Glory

StanJ · Nov 8, 2015

Jun2u said:
I don't know what you mean by the term, “the Bible is BREATHED of God”. What I do know is “holy men of old spoke as God the Holy Spirit moved them”, 2Pe 1:21.

Are you saying that the Holy Spirit was not in the world until He was poured out in Acts? Yes, the language of scripture is “poured out”. Do you even know the meaning of the term “poured out” like water being poured out? Can the Holy Spirit be poured out?

To God Be The Glory

Then I suggest you read 2 Tim 3:16 IN context and learn what that means.

What it says in 2 Peter 1:19-21 IN context, is;
We also have the prophetic message as something completely reliable, and you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a light shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts. Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation of things. For prophecy never had its origin in the human will, but prophets, though human, spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.

It means these men spoke as God told them to, not as they saw fit. Carried along is NOT the same as being filled with the Holy Spirit, which can ONLY happen to one who has confessed Jesus as their saviour and then receives the second Advocate as their power.
Acts 1:4 and Luke 24:49.

Barrd · Nov 8, 2015

StanJ said:
I of course totally accept what Paul states here, but the problem arises in defining WHO is filled with the Holy Spirit and who is not.
As we know from scripture that Paul was, and that some believers were, but some were not, up to the point they were, then I would have to say that still happens, and unless one IS filled with the Holy Spirit, one cannot claim to be able to accept the things of the Spirit, when one has NEVER accepted the HOLY Spirit.

But Stan, doesn't Jesus Christ baptize us all with the Holy Spirit and with fire?

Barrd · Nov 8, 2015

StanJ said:
I of course totally accept what Paul states here, but the problem arises in defining WHO is filled with the Holy Spirit and who is not.
As we know from scripture that Paul was, and that some believers were, but some were not, up to the point they were, then I would have to say that still happens, and unless one IS filled with the Holy Spirit, one cannot claim to be able to accept the things of the Spirit, when one has NEVER accepted the HOLY Spirit.

But Stan, doesn't Jesus Christ baptize us all with the Holy Spirit and with fire?

StanJ · Nov 8, 2015

The Barrd said:
But Stan, doesn't Jesus Christ baptize us all with the Holy Spirit and with fire?

Only from the perspective that once He is our saviour, he allows it to happen as we seek the Holy Spirit. It is NOT one and the same as salvation. Jesus never baptised while he was on earth, and He sure didn't start once He left.

justaname · Nov 8, 2015

StanJ said:
The Bible is BREATHED of God, which means to actually be able to imbibe or assimilate it, one must have the Holy Spirit resident in their lives, as Jesus said, and why He told the Apostles to wait for the Holy Spirit.

What does this have to do with mjrhealth's post?

He commented on my statement "The entire Bible is of the Spirit."
His comment was "Which one?" Then he quoted get behind me Satan...

justaname · Nov 8, 2015

StanJ said:
Only from the perspective that once He is our saviour, he allows it to happen as we seek the Holy Spirit. It is NOT one and the same as salvation. Jesus never baptised while he was on earth, and He sure didn't start once He left.

Interesting...John speaks differently

"As for me, I baptize you with water for repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, and I am not fit to remove His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

Is John referring to someone other than Jesus?

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