We are WORKINGOUT our salvation

williemac said:

Quote from the OP:

" 39 However, we are not the kind who shrink back and are destroyed; on the contrary, we keep trusting and thus preserve our lives!"

How is it that this got mixed into the op and then was completely ignored and even opposed?

Why do I keep hearing the suggestion that we will be destroyed if we don't do a good enough job of working out our salvation? Where is the trust? In Whom is our trust (faith)? Is it transferred to ourselves once we have everlasting life? Are we to move into another arena than faith in order to keep what we were freely given?

This is part of my reply on another post:

Any breaking of our will that takes place is done after we are made a new creation, not before. Once we are given everlasting life, and once the treasure occupies this earthen vessel (2Cor.4:7), it is then that our warfare with the flesh is waged....not before.

But even then, the good news remains good news. We will not be defeated by the flesh in the end. He who begins a good work is He who completes it. We do not do the completing. That is neither our agenda nor our goal. Working out our salvation is accompanied by assurance ( a guarantee) , not by worry, not by fear of rejection, not by uncertainty. These do not motivate success, they feed failure.

Blessings, Howie

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NO SANCTIFICATION ~ NO PROMISE!

daq said:

The KJV is even more clear, (and "worse news" for some) because it is your very soul which is at stake:

Hebrews 10:35-39 KJV
35. Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward.
36. For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.
37. For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry.
38. Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
39. But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

And Paul writes of the same WILL OF GOD concerning which the author of the Epistle to the Hebrews speaks:

1 Thessalonians 4:2-5 KJV
2. For ye know what commandments we gave you by the Lord Jesus.
3. For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication:
4. That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour;
5. Not in the lust of concupiscence, even as the Gentiles which know not God:
6. That no man go beyond and defraud his brother in any matter: because that the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also have forewarned you and testified.
7. For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness.
8. He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but God, who hath also given unto us his holy Spirit.

NO SANCTIFICATION ~ NO PROMISE!

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williemac said:

In Hebrews, where does it say no sanctification, no promise? It says no faith, no promise. Read the context. Faith is the will of God for us in that passage. In fact, Heb.10:14 speaks of past tense.."He has perfected forever those who are BEING sanctified". There are two sanctifications in scripture: The one He does in us in the spirit, and the one we do in the flesh. The first one is our salvation. The latter is not a requirement for salvation. It is a way we make ourselves useful to the Master. It is a relative term, as no one is completely or perfectly sanctified in their flesh and no one is really completely void of sanctification in the flesh.

The Thess. reference cannot be cross referenced with the Heb. reference, as they are in reference to different subjects. But the Thess. passage does not put salvation on the line. God may well avenge, but whom He loves, He rebukes and chastens. That is His promise to us. Paul nowhere says that God will remove His Holy Spirit from His children. We do not cast out our own children, but rather discipline them and correct them. Are we more merciful than God? When a person has judgment and wrath on the brain, he will read it into places where it does not exist. We were promised that because of our faith in Him, we would be exempt from judgment. Read this for yourself in John 5:24, and then please reply to that verse if you are serious about your convictions. I wait with baited breath. Except I will be away until Sunday evening. Have a nice weekend. Blessings in Him.

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daq said:

Every joint-heir, as long as he is a child, differs nothing from a servant and is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the Father. The same day is that which no man knows except the Father only. It is much like a Bar Mitzvah when a child becomes a son, a man, (andres-aner). When we first believe we are sealed with the Holy Spirit of PROMISE unto/until the day of the redemption of the purchased possession. YOU are the "purchased possession" if indeed you were serious in your repentance when you first believed, (God knows your heart from that day and whether you were serious or not). The Holy Spirit is the "earnest" of this inheritance, like an "earnest-money down payment" on the purchase of a house, and YOU are the house. And when the Master comes he will thoroughly purge and cleanse his house before the Most High takes full possession of the property. If we are created beings then indeed we are PROPERTY and therefore truly we are not our own. Be careful that you are not claiming to be something you are not, thinking yourself to have already "arrived" when perhaps you have not, for it appears in your understanding of the Gospel that you seem to have skipped over the need for any of the necessary self cleansing and sanctifying which is required on your part before you will truly inherit the Promise and the Rest which comes with it.

Ephesians 1:13-14 KJV
13. In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14. Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

When "the purchased possession" has been redeemed from the earth then shall a son be born into the kingdom, (being neither male nor female but like the messengers of heaven). He that endures unto the End shall be saved. And then shall the tabernacle of God be with the man, and the man shall be clothed from on high, and time shall be no more; and again I say that according to the Scripture all this must needs become reality BEFORE the physical death at the end of what the natural man calls "life"

Isaiah 56:1-7
1. Thus saith YHWH, Keep ye judgment, and do justice: for my salvation is near to come, and my righteousness to be revealed.
2. Blessed is the man that doeth this, and the son of man that layeth hold on it; that keepeth the Sabbath from polluting it, and keepeth his hand from doing any evil.
3. Neither let the son of the stranger, that hath joined himself unto YHWH, speak, saying, YHWH hath utterly separated me from his people: neither let the eunuch say, Behold, I am a dry tree.
4. For thus saith YHWH unto the eunuchs that keep my Sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant;
5. Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off.
6. Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves unto YHWH, to serve him, and to love the name of YHWH, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the Sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant;
7. Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.

Matthew 18:8-10
8. Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.
9. And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.
10. Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.

Matthew 19:11-12
11. But he said unto them, Not everyone can receive this saying, save they to whom it is given.
12. For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from the womb of their mother: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it.

Matthew 24:45-50
45. Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?
46. Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
47. Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.
48. But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;
49. And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;
50. The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,

Mark 13:31-37
31. Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.
32. But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.
33. Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is.
34. For the Son of man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch.
35. Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning:
36. Lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping.
37. And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch.

The man is "the house" and the house is divided into different "apartments" or compartments. Everything is personified including sin and evil. The lesser "members" of our households are likened to "brothers" and "little ones" whom we are given charge to watch over and protect. However, the evil which dwells in the flesh desires to take control over these little ones so as to use them for various iniquities. Let every man understand therefore that we are set in charge of the house in which we dwell while the Master is away: "Sin lieth at the door; and unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him!"

Matthew 18:10 KJV
10. Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.

Therefore Paul says to the Thessalonians that "the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also have forewarned you and testified" because these things concern the body, which is the house, which is the temple of the Creator, and is not our own. Every part of the body belongs to the Father; even down to the five virgin toes on the right foot and the five on the left foot, ("thy Word is a lamp unto my feet and a light unto my path") and every separate "member" of the body has a "messenger" that in heaven does always behold the face of the Father which is in heaven. We are as keepers put in charge over these "lesser members of the household" while the Master is away in a far journey. We are likened to "the porter of the house" which has the keys and watches the door until the owner of the house returns, (Mark 13:34). This is why Paul states to the Thessalonians in the so-called "Rapture" passage that these things concerning sanctification and knowing how to possess our vessels are by the commandments of Yeshua himself:

1 Thessalonians 4:1-14 KJV
1. Furthermore then we beseech you, brethren, and exhort you by the Lord Jesus, that as ye have received of us how ye ought to walk and to please God, so ye would abound more and more.
2. For ye know what commandments we gave you by the Lord Jesus.
3. For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication:
4. That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour;
5. Not in the lust of concupiscence, even as the Gentiles which know not God:
6. That no man go beyond and defraud his brother in any matter: because that the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also have forewarned you and testified.
7. For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness.
8. He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but God, who hath also given unto us his holy Spirit.
9. But as touching brotherly love ye need not that I write unto you: for ye yourselves are taught of God to love one another.
10. And indeed ye do it toward all the brethren which are in all Macedonia: but we beseech you, brethren, that ye increase more and more;
11. And that ye study to be quiet, and to do your own business, and to work with your own hands, as we commanded you;
12. That ye may walk honestly toward them that are without, and that ye may have lack of nothing.
13. But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

Let not sin have dominion in your mortal body: PUT HIM TO DEATH!

Romans 6:12-13 KJV
12. Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
13. Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

Romans 8:11-14 KJV
11. But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
12. Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13. For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
14. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

Colossians 3:2-6 KJV
2. Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
3. For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
4. When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.
5. Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
6. For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:

The "unruly members" of the household which the patient faithful have been forced to put to sleep, (mortify, slay, put to death) will be restored anew from the Father, in the times of refreshing, when all things shall be made new and wherein dwells righteousness. This again is the same "will of God" the Father which the writer of the Epistle to the Hebrews likewise speaks:

Hebrews 10:35-39 KJV
35. Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward.
36. For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.
37. For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry.
38. Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
39. But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

Therefore part yourself asunder, in twain, for the son is not born into the Kingdom until the "old man" is slain.

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Not sure about you but my eschatology and theology are one in Messiah.

williemac said:

In Hebrews, where does it say no sanctification, no promise? It says no faith, no promise. Read the context. Faith is the will of God for us in that passage. In fact, Heb.10:14 speaks of past tense.."He has perfected forever those who are BEING sanctified". There are two sanctifications in scripture: The one He does in us in the spirit, and the one we do in the flesh. The first one is our salvation. The latter is not a requirement for salvation. It is a way we make ourselves useful to the Master. It is a relative term, as no one is completely or perfectly sanctified in their flesh and no one is really completely void of sanctification in the flesh.

The Thess. reference cannot be cross referenced with the Heb. reference, as they are in reference to different subjects. But the Thess. passage does not put salvation on the line. God may well avenge, but whom He loves, He rebukes and chastens. That is His promise to us. Paul nowhere says that God will remove His Holy Spirit from His children. We do not cast out our own children, but rather discipline them and correct them. Are we more merciful than God? When a person has judgment and wrath on the brain, he will read it into places where it does not exist. We were promised that because of our faith in Him, we would be exempt from judgment. Read this for yourself in John 5:24, and then please reply to that verse if you are serious about your convictions. I wait with baited breath. Except I will be away until Sunday evening. Have a nice weekend. Blessings in Him.

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ScottAU said:

The framework of monergism as it applies to salvation is basically hinged on the belief that any "choice" or "action" attributed to man is an infringement on the sovereignty of God. Thus for man to contribute in any manner whatsoever in regards to the outsome of one's salvation is to unseat God from His throne.

The question I would like to ask is...

Was the building of the Ark something Noah HAD TO DO as a requirement to be delivered from the flood? I don't see God building the Ark for Noah, rather God gave the guidance needed and Noah trusted in that guidence and did the necessary work.

"Faith is active" as opposed to "faith being passive" thus it can be said that "FAITH WORKS" then is that not the building of the ark a clear example of Noah "working together with God" or "working out his salvation with fear and trembling"?

Heb 11:7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.


It sure does tickle the ears of a sinner to tell them "don't worry, what you do does not matter, just trust in Jesus and you are exempt from the judgment."

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aspen2 said:

fear and love are incompatable

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aspen2 said:

fear means 'awe' and 'wonder' in that verse.

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aspen2 said:

you cannot fear and love someone at the same time - sorry, it is psychologically impossible. Love requires us to be vulnerable, which cannot happen if we are afraid.

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