Who created evil and death?

aspen · Jul 14, 2013

The invention of a first creation narrative is the result of hyper-literalism - which is crazy because it results in actually adding to the scriptures. It was not written as an eyewitness account of creation.

veteran · Jul 14, 2013

Rex said:
Disputing what is in your head is impossible but If you see all of that "between verse" who can surly argue with that. To believe you have proved such a case is is a matter of opinion, and unsubstantiated facts about a 1st earth age is simply an over active imagination.

1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
(Insert comic book here)
2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

Are you trying to refute what I posted in post #17, or just 'mouthing' like you normally do?

Show me HOW the Hebrew for those words rendered "without form, and void" is translated elsewhere in God's Word.

Try this one...

Isa 45:18
18 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God Himself That formed the earth and made it; He hath established it, He created it not in vain (Hebrew tohuw), He formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.
(KJV)

Gen 1:2
2 And the earth was without form (Hebrew tohuw), and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
(KJV)

Jer 4:23-27
23 I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form (Hebrew tohuw), and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.
24 I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly.
25 I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled.
26 I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by His fierce anger.
27 For thus hath the LORD said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end.
(KJV)

If Hebrew tohuw va bohuw rendered as "without form, and void" means a nothingness state like a space vacuum, then WHY... is it used there about the state of the earth in a wasted... condition???

It's clear that the earth already existed at Genesis 1:2, and had become a waste and a ruin, and God brought waters of a flood upon to end the time of Satan's first rebellion, a rebellion with a third of the angels like Rev.12:3-4 reveals.

CarlosB · Jul 15, 2013

aspen2 said:
Yeah Carlos, you are condemning Augustine's understanding of Good and evil, not mine. I didn't make this stuff up. Stating that evil is a lesser form of Good is not denying evil or the effects of evil - it is stating the truth - that God created a Good creation that humanity broke

I do not speak on behalf d anyone or any church, but sOnly of Christ and therefore only quote Christ.

aspen · Jul 15, 2013

CarlosB said:
I do not speak on behalf d anyone or any church, but sOnly of Christ and therefore only quote Christ.

What good is quoting Jesus's words if you do so out of context?

Also, why do you think it is somehow noble to dismiss 2,000 years worth of Christian thought regarding Christ's words - as if the Holy Spirit has singled you out for some kind of new literal interpretation of Jesus?

CarlosB · Jul 15, 2013

veteran said:
You have to understand more of God's Word to properly interpret that Isaiah 45:7 Scripture.

The reason most brethren don't interpret it properly is because they have yet to understand about this present world time as a 2nd world or earth age. You have to understand this first.

In 2 Peter 3, he covered the idea of 3 distinct earth ages of time, the final one being the future new heavens and a new earth.

1st earth age - prior to Gen.1:2 ("the world that then was")
2nd earth age - from Gen.1:2 to present day ("the heavens and the earth, which are now")
3rd earth age - after God's Great White Throne Judgment ("new heavens and a new earth")

In the 1st earth age, that was when the cherub Satan was perfect in his ways (Ezek.28) following God, guarding the Mercy Seat of God's Throne. Then Satan rebelled against God with coveting that very Throne. That is officially when evil began, like Apostle John said the devil "sinneth from the beginning" in 1 John 3:8. So God destroyed that time of old when Satan rebelled and drew one third of the angels into rebellion with him (Rev.12:3-4). Per the Rev.12:3 verse, that "great red dragon" had established a beast kingdom that had seven heads, seven crowns, and ten horns. The Rev.12:3 number of crowns is different than the one in Rev.13 that will have ten crowns, and the Rev.12:3 one is given in association with the third of angels ("stars") being drawn in rebellion with Satan in that time of old.

So prior to Satan's rebellion, there was NO sin. The devil himself did the very first sin, like 1 John 3:8 shows. And Apostle John defined sin as the transgression of the law also in that 1 John 3 chapter. That is officially when evil began, with Satan's rebellion of old.

In the Book of Isaiah, God also uses the name of the flesh king of Assyria as a symbolic title for Satan (like Isaiah 10, Isaiah 30:31-33, also in Ezek.31). God shows He is using Satan for this present earth age as His punishing rod upon those who rebel against Him, like a whipping switch. That idea is the hinge-point of understanding the Isaiah 45:7 verse about God creating evil...

The idea is NOT... that evil originated from God, but that for this 2nd earth age, God USES... the devil who is the originator of evil, because the devil sinned from the beginning by rebellion against God. Thus even when God imparts a judgment, like the one in Egypt where He caused a darkness upon the land that could be felt (Exodus 10:21), that was for this 2nd earth age. ALL His judgments upon the rebellious of this world are for this 2nd earth age which extends all the way past Christ's future "thousand years" reign to the final Judgment.

The only judgments God did back in the 1st earth age when the devil rebelled was His judgment and sentencing of the devil and his angels into the future "lake of fire". No one else, even to this present time, has already been judged and sentenced to perish in the future "lake of fire".

This is why by the time of the 3rd earth age (God's Eternity of the new heavens and a new earth), the concept of evil will no longer exist. It will be destroyed in the "lake of fire" along with Satan and the wicked who will still choose to follow the devil.

So when we see God passing out judgments for today, or since the time right after Satan's rebellion, it was all... because of Satan's original rebellion against Him, and God uses the devil and his as the whipping stick. Just like a parent who breaks off a whipping switch to discipline a child, that switch is cast into the fire when it's no longer needed. Likewise with Satan and his. That is especially God's Message in Isaiah 10 about "the Assyrian" when He is speaking symbolically about Satan as the "rod of Mine anger".

That's doctrines of men that has nothing to do with the Bible, the devil has deceived men for centuries convincing them that was so nice to show that God failed, what God did and he broke, but the truth is that what God makes no one can undo.

But Satan never rebelled, he has always been bad since its origin, it was created vessel of dishonor to dishonor God and his people; Yes, God made him to destroy.

Behold, I have created the smith que bloweth the coals in the fire, and que bringeth forth an instrument for his work, and I have created the waster to destroy.
Isaiah 54:16

Because if he was ever good tree would never give bad fruit.

I have shown many times that God created evil, if someone does not believe it is because God is not leaving, because faith is the gift of God and not the product of man, that person ask mercy of God to accept what is written.

aspen2 said:
The invention of a first creation narrative is the result of hyper-literalism - which is crazy because it results in actually adding to the scriptures. It was not written as an eyewitness account of creation.

So if you create doctrines biblical reasoning baseless.

veteran said:
Are you trying to refute what I posted in post #17, or just 'mouthing' like you normally do?

Show me HOW the Hebrew for those words rendered "without form, and void" is translated elsewhere in God's Word.

Try this one...

Isa 45:18
18 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God Himself That formed the earth and made it; He hath established it, He created it not in vain (Hebrew tohuw), He formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.
(KJV)

Gen 1:2
2 And the earth was without form (Hebrew tohuw), and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
(KJV)

Jer 4:23-27
23 I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form (Hebrew tohuw), and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.
24 I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly.
25 I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled.
26 I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by His fierce anger.
27 For thus hath the LORD said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end.
(KJV)

If Hebrew tohuw va bohuw rendered as "without form, and void" means a nothingness state like a space vacuum, then WHY... is it used there about the state of the earth in a wasted... condition???

It's clear that the earth already existed at Genesis 1:2, and had become a waste and a ruin, and God brought waters of a flood upon to end the time of Satan's first rebellion, a rebellion with a third of the angels like Rev.12:3-4 reveals.

Besides there is no rebellion, you still presents a passage from the end of the world that is to come? Eeheheh ...

You will not believe what is written on the eyes, what is most basic in what the Bible says that Adam is the Father of all mankind and that we are their first fruits and their firstborn and you believe in things that the Bible does not witness? Do not know what they are firstfruits and firstborn? Go see a dictionary.

Honestly!

aspen2 said:
What good is quoting Jesus's words if you do so out of context?

Also, why do you think it is somehow noble to dismiss 2,000 years worth of Christian thought regarding Christ's words - as if the Holy Spirit has singled you out for some kind of new literal interpretation of Jesus?

God's words to Adam were false? Therefore God lied? So is their are literal and true and my fiticias and false?

The scripture says that opened his eyes to knowledge when it opened? God said that man was like God knowing good and evil that was not?So how do I show that God created evil; alias could give you a huge list.

You said that out of context and therefore had other passages, now I do not go out of events.

Honestly, I'm here.

aspen · Jul 15, 2013

Carlos - your posts are difficult to understand.

Do you think Adam and Eve could choose to do good after the Fall?

They could not. In fact, instead, they became slaves to evil - all they could do was evil apart from God. So what is the benefit of eating the fruit? Nothing.

Being naked in the Garden was a good thing - they were innocent and submitted everything to God - after the Fall they were ashamed and separated from God. It was a bad thing, not a good thing.

Dan57 · Jul 15, 2013

CarlosB said:
But Satan never rebelled, he has always been bad since its origin, it was created vessel of dishonor to dishonor God and his people; Yes, God made him to destroy.

Satan rebelled, he wasn't always bad; Ezekiel 28:14-19, Isaiah 14:12-15

veteran · Jul 16, 2013

CarlosB said:
That's doctrines of men that has nothing to do with the Bible, the devil has deceived men for centuries convincing them that was so nice to show that God failed, what God did and he broke, but the truth is that what God makes no one can undo.

But Satan never rebelled, he has always been bad since its origin, it was created vessel of dishonor to dishonor God and his people; Yes, God made him to destroy.

Because if he was ever good tree would never give bad fruit.

I have shown many times that God created evil, if someone does not believe it is because God is not leaving, because faith is the gift of God and not the product of man, that person ask mercy of God to accept what is written.

So if you create doctrines biblical reasoning baseless.

Besides there is no rebellion, you still presents a passage from the end of the world that is to come? Eeheheh ...

You will not believe what is written on the eyes, what is most basic in what the Bible says that Adam is the Father of all mankind and that we are their first fruits and their firstborn and you believe in things that the Bible does not witness? Do not know what they are firstfruits and firstborn? Go see a dictionary.

Honestly!

God's words to Adam were false? Therefore God lied? So is their are literal and true and my fiticias and false?

The scripture says that opened his eyes to knowledge when it opened? God said that man was like God knowing good and evil that was not?So how do I show that God created evil; alias could give you a huge list.

You said that out of context and therefore had other passages, now I do not go out of events.

Honestly, I'm here.

The doctrines of men are yours, because IF you had really studied all of God's Word for yourself, then you would have understood that in Ezek.28 and isaiah 14 God was pointing directly to Satan when he first rebelled, using symbolic titles of others (like the king and prince of Tyrus, and king of Babylon).

I can understand how the Churches you've probably attended never taught you that, because most Churches today are too weak in real Bible study to be able to handle it. But those here who 'know' can handle it, and I'm one of them...

Ezek 28:1-19
1 The word of the LORD came again unto me, saying,
2 Son of man, say unto the prince of Tyrus, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thine heart is lifted up, and thou hast said, I am a God, I sit in the seat of God, in the midst of the seas; yet thou art a man, and not God, though thou set thine heart as the heart of God:
3 Behold, thou art wiser than Daniel; there is no secret that they can hide from thee:
4 With thy wisdom and with thine understanding thou hast gotten thee riches, and hast gotten gold and silver into thy treasures:
5 By thy great wisdom and by thy traffick hast thou increased thy riches, and thine heart is lifted up because of thy riches:
6 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thou hast set thine heart as the heart of God;
7 Behold, therefore I will bring strangers upon thee, the terrible of the nations: and they shall draw their swords against the beauty of thy wisdom, and they shall defile thy brightness.
8 They shall bring thee down to the pit, and thou shalt die the deaths of them that are slain in the midst of the seas.
9 Wilt thou yet say before him that slayeth thee, "I am God?" but thou shalt be a man, and no God, in the hand of him that slayeth thee.
10 Thou shalt die the deaths of the uncircumcised by the hand of strangers: for I have spoken it, saith the Lord GOD.

The name "Tyrus" means 'rock'. So far here, one must assume God is speaking about the 'flesh' prince of Tyrus (Tyre). The island rock of Tyre was a great city of world commerce back in history, until Alexander the Great was given to conquer it. It had double 150 ft. walls around the island making it impossible to conquer from the sea. Alexander's army spent much time pilling up earth out to it making a land bridge to reach it, which land bridge still exists there today.

Ezek.28:11 Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.

THAT Scripture... is NOT about the 'flesh' king of Tyrus. Instead, God is only USING the idea of the "king of Tyrus" as a symbolic title for Lucifer himself. NO... flesh king was EVER in God's Garden of Eden! And definitely NO... flesh king EVER walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire, which represents God's Own Abode in Heaven. Moreover, NO flesh man is an "anointed cherub", for a cherub in God's Word is a Heavenly type being! (Recall the cherubim of Ezek.1).

Ezek.28:1615 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.

The idea of a "covering cherub" is a Heavenly cherub guarding The Mercy Seat of God's Throne. That... is what Lucifer's original duty was, before he coveted God's Throne as written here. God says there that Lucifier was perfect in his ways from the day he was created, until.... iniquity was found in him.

17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.
(KJV)

IF... you believe God has judged and sentenced ANY flesh born man already... then we do not believe in the same God and His Son Jesus Christ. ONLY... Lucifer and his angels so far have already... been judged and sentenced to perish. That's why that 18th verse cannot apply to ANY... flesh born man, including some flesh king of Tyre. It can only apply to Lucifer, the wanna' be king.

Our Heavenly Father hid this in that kind of symbolic language from the profane fleshy minded people, but not from His servants through Jesus Christ. Those in Christ Jesus are supposed to know and understand this.

Sargento · Jul 16, 2013

Hi to all...

This is my first post in this forum... I'm Portuguese so sorry for my English that might not always be the best, if something is not clear just ask.

Well, about this topic... I must say that I agree with Carlos, because nowhere in the Bible is written that the Devil was ever good.... what it does say DIRECTLY is that he was bad since the beginning.

This tradition of the rebellion of Devil is mostly grounded on Ezekiel 28 and Isaiah 14 but for it to be right one have to ignore almost all the chapter in order to "FIT" this passages in that theory that Jesus himself talks against.

About Ezekiel...

First of all, it's talking to the king of Tyrus not the Devil and it's for the FUTURE like any normal prophecy, not the PAST...

Second...
It says that he became corrupted because of the greatness of his traffick .... IN HEAVEN??

Third...
It says that God will reduce him to ashes... was the Devil reduced to ashes after his "rebellion"? Didn't he appeared many times on hearth in the Old Testament (and new) and even between the children of GOD in Job's book?

"Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee."
Ezekiel 28:18-19

Fourth and last...
This prophecy about the King of Tyre ends with his total annihilation... was the Devil totally annihilated after he "rebelled"?

"All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never {shalt} thou {be} any more. {a terror: Heb. terrors}"
Ezekiel 28:19

Now there's the argument some might say "he was in Eden"... well, so did the Pharaoh:

"And it came to pass in the eleventh year, in the third {month}, in the first {day} of the month, {that} the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
Son of man, speak unto Pharaoh king of Egypt, and to his multitude; Whom art thou like in thy greatness?
Behold, the Assyrian {was} a cedar in Lebanon with fair branches, and with a shadowing shroud, and of an high stature; and his top was among the thick boughs. {with fair branches: Heb. fair of branches}
The waters made him great, the deep set him up on high with her rivers running round about his plants, and sent out her little rivers unto all the trees of the field. {made...: or, nourished him} {set...: or, brought him up} {little rivers: or, conduits}
Therefore his height was exalted above all the trees of the field, and his boughs were multiplied, and his branches became long because of the multitude of waters, when he shot forth. {when...: or, when it sent them forth}
All the fowls of heaven made their nests in his boughs, and under his branches did all the beasts of the field bring forth their young, and under his shadow dwelt all great nations.
Thus was he fair in his greatness, in the length of his branches: for his root was by great waters.
The cedars in the garden of God could not hide him: the fir trees were not like his boughs, and the chesnut trees were not like his branches; nor any tree in the garden of God was like unto him in his beauty.
I have made him fair by the multitude of his branches: so that all the trees of Eden, that {were} in the garden of God, envied him.
Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thou hast lifted up thyself in height, and he hath shot up his top among the thick boughs, and his heart is lifted up in his height;"
Ez 31:1-10

The truth is, this prophecys, just like many others are for the end of times, not the beginning ... prophecys are for the future, not the past ... in these case they're talking about the Antichrist and their appearance to the world when he sits in the holy place appearing a saint and a protector angel until he be exposed and then totally annihilated by the day of the LORD.

About Isaiah...

...it talks about the day of the LORD again... and again it's the future not the past... because it says :

And it shall come to pass in the day that the LORD shall give thee rest from thy sorrow, and from thy fear, and from the hard bondage wherein thou wast made to serve,
That thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased! {proverb: or, taunting speech} {golden...: or, exactress of gold}
Isa 14:3-4

This is what we are going to say about the Antichrist in the day that Jesus annihilates him ... when the oppressor ceases ... not what happened before... this is what well say in the day of the LORD when the Devil will be annihilated by the splendor of the appearing of our Lord.

"The LORD hath broken the staff of the wicked, {and} the sceptre of the rulers.
He who smote the people in wrath with a continual stroke, he that ruled the nations in anger, is persecuted, {and} none hindereth. {a continual...: Heb. a stroke without removing}
The whole earth is at rest, {and} is quiet: they break forth into singing.
Yea, the fir trees rejoice at thee, {and} the cedars of Lebanon, {saying}, Since thou art laid down, no feller is come up against us.
Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet {thee} at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, {even} all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations. {Hell: or, The grave} {chief...: Heb. leaders, or, great goats}"
Isaiah 14:5-9

Then it says the LORD broke him... That happened in his rebellion? What was he doing in the desert with Jesus then?

It also says he ruled nations... IN HEAVEN?

Then it says the the Whole Earth is at rest... the Earth became at rest after his rebellion? Or according to tradition that's when he came and perverted hearth also?
How is that expelling from Heaven on to Earth makes Earth at rest?... simple, this expel was no from heaven but from Earth to Hell.

Then we see he meets Hell... well, if after rebellion he gone to Hell what was he doing in Eden?

"For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High."
Isaiah 14:13-14

Again, if this is his expelling FROM heaven why was he craving to ASCEND to heaven? Wasn't he already there???

And just like before, at the beginning of the chapter we see that we will say this when he as ceased... and again it's about the Antichrist in the end of times, not Devil at the beginnig.

So, not Isaiah nor Ezekiel say the Devil was ever good and then rebelled ... however Jesus says he was always wicked and never good.

"Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do: he was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it."
John 8:44

And so does John...

"He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil."
1John 3:8

So, they both say the Devil was never good, and nowhere in the Bible we see the opposite .. if believe the Devil had ever been good I would be despising the word of GOD to listen to human traditions.

aspen · Jul 16, 2013

On a positive note, this discussion has bolstered my confidence that salvation is not contingent on doctrinal understanding - if it was we would all be damned. However, it still makes me cringe to watch everyone with a Bible commit exegesis-cide and crimes against hermeneutics.

Oh the humanity.....

Actually, I have just been reminded of a time when I was a new Christian and asked my conservative youth group leader if Satan was just less evil than God - if in fact, since he was created good, the Devil had some residual goodness. After picking himself off the floor, he proceeded to rebuke me in the name of the Lord - well, practically, lol. Little did he or I know that I was just considering the same thought as Augustine, hundreds of years before me.

veteran · Jul 17, 2013

Sargento said:
Hi to all...

This is my first post in this forum... I'm Portuguese so sorry for my English that might not always be the best, if something is not clear just ask.

Well, about this topic... I must say that I agree with Carlos, because nowhere in the Bible is written that the Devil was ever good.... what it does say DIRECTLY is that he was bad since the beginning.

This tradition of the rebellion of Devil is mostly grounded on Ezekiel 28 and Isaiah 14 but for it to be right one have to ignore almost all the chapter in order to "FIT" this passages in that theory that Jesus himself talks against.

So far, nothing but words without any... Biblical proof.

About Ezekiel...

First of all, it's talking to the king of Tyrus not the Devil and it's for the FUTURE like any normal prophecy, not the PAST...

The Ezekiel passage is BOTH historical, and future prophetic, at the same time. God destroyed the island rock of Tyre as He said He would through Isaiah. But He did not burn any flesh king of Tyrus upon it.

Furthermore, the Ezekiel 28:13 verse is God saying this king of Tyrus was in... His Garden of Eden! NO flesh king of Tyrus was EVER... in God's Garden of Eden, but that old serpent was! Then Ezek.28:14, God calls this one an "anointed cherub", when a 'cherub' is NO flesh born man, but a Heavenly being.

So right off the bat, your words against the prophecy have been revealed as falsehoods!

Sargento · Jul 18, 2013

On a positive note, this discussion has bolstered my confidence that salvation is not contingent on doctrinal understanding

Hi Aspen...

Salvation IS contingent on doctrinal understanding.

Men is saved by faith, but faith has to be in something ... not just a faith suspended ... that something is the truth. Or are we saved by having faith in nothing ????
It has to be a doctrine in which we believe or not.
To believe in something there must be something in what to believe... we're saved for believing in the truth.

Now, I'm not saying everyone has to know everything for every one understands just as far as GOD allows him, but even the smallest son of GOD knows HIM and can tell the difference between truth and lie...
One thing is to know all the mysteries of GOD, but another one is to know GOD, and knowing GOD draws us a guide line and this allows us to know truth from lie... just by understanding It's grace and we're able to unravel many things because in order to things obey that guide line of GOD (common to every reborn men) he starts understanding the truth about all ... and anyone who really knows GOD just by hearing that Devil was created to be good and became evil automatically refutes it, he may at first not know how to explain it but he sees it just doesn't make sense ... because that's not GOD. He does not fail or get frustrated.

aspen · Jul 18, 2013

really? so where is the line? are mentally retarded people going to Hell? children? demented? average intelligence people? less educated than theologians? your hell sure sounds crowded - and these are simply the people unqualified based on their less than adequate understanding of doctrine.

Sargento · Jul 22, 2013

HI aspen.... I only saw your message now (no email notification).

Aspen, as far as understanding GOD and HIS gospel there's no advantage between a normal man and a retarded one... there in the same situation... dead in sin... but if the grace of GOD comes over him, no matter who he is he will understand HIM and believe in HIM... GOD will take care of HIM.

Or am I wrong by saying that your faith as to be in the truth??? Yes, because this is what you just tried to refute...

aspen · Jul 22, 2013

All I am saying is that our understanding of doctrine is not going to save us. Only an intimate relationship with Christ will save us. Just like a picture of an orange will not cure scurvy - you have to eat the real thing.

JB_Reformed Baptist · Jul 23, 2013

Raeneske said:
I wouldn't say God created evil. I would simply say that for the time being, He PERMITS evil to exist. He created everything holy, and good. But He also gave that perfect and good being, free will. By giving us free will, we have been given the choice to continue on with God, or without God. We all know (we should) that the originator of sin is actually Satan. He was the first being to misuse that which is good (his leadership, brains, and even free will), and use it himself for evil.

So as my first statement was: God didn't create evil. God simply ~~permitted~~ governs it. And God will also end it. (Nahum 1:9).

I agree wholeheartedly.

aspen2 said:
All I am saying is that our understanding of doctrine is not going to save us.{Jesus said the TRUTH shall set us free and he says faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of GOD.} I would say TRUTH is important! Only an intimate relationship with Christ will save us. Just like a picture of an orange will not cure scurvy - you have to eat the real thing.

Slipping in transubstantiation, again. B)

Sargento · Jul 23, 2013

aspen2 said:
All I am saying is that our understanding of doctrine is not going to save us. Only an intimate relationship with Christ will save us. Just like a picture of an orange will not cure scurvy - you have to eat the real thing.

Ok... I understand, but that's wrong Aspen.

In fact, what saves us is Jesus it self not what we do and not even faith it self.

But faith is the sign of the saved one, and for it to exist it exists ABOUT something which is the truth ... or is your faith believing in whatever????
That gospel is not "believe in what you want", but it is "believe in what I say".
... without truth there's no valid faith... so understanding of doctrine has to exist... that's our "intimate relationship"...

Because intimacy is KNOWING that person and what he is and says, not just doing what you interpret what he wants from you..
Intimate relationship with someone you do not know what he says its not intimate... that's venerating a picture of someone you do not really know.

But I guess you already understood this....

Is it wrong that faith has to be on the truth???

Unless you believe it's your works who save you... I don't know you that well yet... do you?

aspen · Jul 23, 2013

Faith doesn't save you. Grace saves us.

Faith is not a magical power that is given to us by God, only to be used in relationship with God. Every person on the planet exercises faith everyday, unless they are in a coma. I am going to exercise faith in my car to assist me to work this afternoon - that is the same faith that we use to relate to God. I trust God that He is sanctifying me, for example.

It is only through God's Grace that we live and breathe and have our being, in the first place. God's Grace is what justifies and sanctifies us to be citizens of Heaven, Amen!

There is nothing we can do to earn His Grace, we simply have to be vulnerable enough to trust Him, which is faith. In order to do this we need to choose to receive His love and return it - just like a marriage. If you want to be married, it is a grace, you cannot earn another person's love, however, you do need to also contribute love to remain in the relationship. It is true that we could never have a relationship with God without His Grace, but His Love and Salvation are not possessions that He gives us - they are qualities of a living relationship that requires our full participation.

Also, knowledge comes from doctrine, but intimacy comes from prayer. Without prayer, doctrine remains in your head and un-applied. Cognitively impaired people are saved through Grace, not doctrine, for example.

JB_ said:
I agree wholeheartedly.

Slipping in transubstantiation, again. B)

Pretty cool, huh?

Arnie Manitoba · Jul 23, 2013

CarlosB said:
Knowing that God created all things, so also created evil, right?

Sometimes I think we are simply one grand experiment

Good and evil are the influences

Good and evil are the choices

Mankind are the players

The viewing audience watches from the spiritual realm

What we do affects those in the spiritual realm as well

The winners live and the losers die

For ever and ever

Amen

veteran · Jul 24, 2013

Sargento said:
Hi Aspen...

Salvation IS contingent on doctrinal understanding.

Men is saved by faith, but faith has to be in something ... not just a faith suspended ... that something is the truth. Or are we saved by having faith in nothing ????
It has to be a doctrine in which we believe or not.
To believe in something there must be something in what to believe... we're saved for believing in the truth.

Now, I'm not saying everyone has to know everything for every one understands just as far as GOD allows him, but even the smallest son of GOD knows HIM and can tell the difference between truth and lie...
One thing is to know all the mysteries of GOD, but another one is to know GOD, and knowing GOD draws us a guide line and this allows us to know truth from lie... just by understanding It's grace and we're able to unravel many things because in order to things obey that guide line of GOD (common to every reborn men) he starts understanding the truth about all ... and anyone who really knows GOD just by hearing that Devil was created to be good and became evil automatically refutes it, he may at first not know how to explain it but he sees it just doesn't make sense ... because that's not GOD. He does not fail or get frustrated.

Since you've already shown here just by the ability to put together words to express yourself with the ability to read and write, you have the same opportunity to get into God's Holy Writ for 'yourself' as the rest of us here do.

Now IF... you had actually read much of God's Word The Bible, then you would understand His warnings He gave us for the end of this world, to NOT be deceived by any man (that of course includes men's traditions which often get totally away from God's Word).

Since God made the association in Ezekiel 28 and Isaiah 14 about the devil, He gave us that for a reason. What reason? So we would not be deceived by the Wicked one. Understanding it is important, because it ties DIRECTLY to the 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4 Scripture about the coming false one to sit in a temple in Jerusalem and proclaim himself as God, and also demand that all worship him in place of God.

So, a believer knowing NOTHING about that Bible warning would likely do what when that near-future pseudo-Christ shows up on this earth doing miracles and wonders like our Lord Jesus did? Well, read Apostle Paul's warning about it in 2 Corinthians 11 also.

I can tell you right now, our Lord Jesus is NOT going to be happy with all the spiritual harlots in His Church He discovers at His return having bowed in worship to the "another Jesus", ESPECIALLY since He and His Apostles well warned us about it beforehand in His Word of Truth!

Who created evil and death?

“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few

New Member

New Member

“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few

New Member

“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few

Active Member

New Member

New Member

“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few

New Member

New Member

“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few

New Member

“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few

Many are called but few are chosen.

New Member

“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few

Well-Known Member

New Member

Similar threads