It seemed like you were agreeing with me, but then said, water has no power. I didn't say that it was the water that did anything. Scripture also says that one has to believe to saved. Does that mean the brain has some power to save a person? How is the brain any different than the water? It's just something used to meet a condition.The Barrd said:
The Nicene Creed is not Christian
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Oh, my friend...the power is all God.Butch5 said:
But yes...you must use your brain...or perhaps mind would be a better word...
You must first accept that you are a sinner, and the very second that you do that, your heart is going to cry out to God. And God will hear you.
It is this...your heart reaching out to God, and God's Great Heart answering that cry that is what it is all about. That is where the power is.
There is no power at all in the water. It the precious Blood of Jesus that washes away sin...not the water.
It's rather hard to explain...
It's something that you just have to experience for yourself.
There is a HUGE difference.Butch5 said:
Your mind is alive...the water is not.
Your mind can reach out to God, and can understand when He answers your cry...the water can not.
Is water "necessary"? Many people think so. Others do not.
What matters is the heart to Heart interaction between the penitent sinner and his or her God.
Baptism is a ritual...nothing more, and nothing less.
As far as the water "washing away sins"...you'll get cleaner in your bathtub.
Which is kind of the point.
Remember, in Jesus' time there was no indoor plumbing. When you entered a person's house, it was customary to wash your feet.
There were many rituals involved in bodily cleanliness. You can't walk around the desert without taking a bath and stay kissing sweet...
And baptism wasn't exactly a new idea. It had been around, literally for ages. The Jews had all sorts of cleanliness rituals, and they included baptism.
What is new is Jesus. He is the Way and the Truth and the Life...and no man comes to the Father but through Him.
Which sort of rules out coming to the Father via the water...
@Wormwood
I'm surprised to find out that you actually stand on the other side of the fence on this issue from me. I would like you to read my post #45 and additionally read these articles by Apologist Matt Slick. they are a very good explanation of why I believe what I believe with exegesis. I'd like to hear your thoughts on these.
https://carm.org/pray-ask-jesus-forgive
This one covers thoughts on baptism for forgiveness, as well as salvation.
https://carm.org/baptism-verses-responses
I'm surprised to find out that you actually stand on the other side of the fence on this issue from me. I would like you to read my post #45 and additionally read these articles by Apologist Matt Slick. they are a very good explanation of why I believe what I believe with exegesis. I'd like to hear your thoughts on these.
https://carm.org/pray-ask-jesus-forgive
This one covers thoughts on baptism for forgiveness, as well as salvation.
https://carm.org/baptism-verses-responses
That's funny as I know you didn't read it, and you've given no proof of the contrary.
Additionally, you can look here for when you receive the holy spirit:
https://carm.org/baptized-filled-with-the-holy-spirit
It's really not that difficult to believe.
There are two baptisms:
1. Baptism of the holy spirit
This happens and is part of your salvation
2. Baptism with water.
This happens externally as a testimony for all to see.
Additionally, you can look here for when you receive the holy spirit:
https://carm.org/baptized-filled-with-the-holy-spirit
It's really not that difficult to believe.
There are two baptisms:
1. Baptism of the holy spirit
This happens and is part of your salvation
2. Baptism with water.
This happens externally as a testimony for all to see.
Yes, I am. Please explain to me the fallacies about when you receive the holy spirit here:
44 While Peter was still speaking these words, athe Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the 1message.
45 aAll the 1circumcised believers who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been bpoured out on the Gentiles also.
46 For they were hearing them aspeaking with tongues and exalting God. Then Peter answered,
47 “aSurely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who bhave received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?”
48 And he aordered them to be baptized bin the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to stay on for a few days.
So show me how their baptism happened before they were filled with the Holy Spirit. Because He quotes this very passage.
44 While Peter was still speaking these words, athe Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the 1message.
45 aAll the 1circumcised believers who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been bpoured out on the Gentiles also.
46 For they were hearing them aspeaking with tongues and exalting God. Then Peter answered,
47 “aSurely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who bhave received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?”
48 And he aordered them to be baptized bin the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to stay on for a few days.
So show me how their baptism happened before they were filled with the Holy Spirit. Because He quotes this very passage.
He posts these passages and says that Jesus was filled with the Spirit from the womb. None of these passages speak of Jesus.Doug_E_Fresh said:
- Luke 1:15, “For he will be great in the sight of the Lord; and he will drink no wine or liquor, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit while yet in his mother’s womb."
- Luke 1:41, "When Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the baby leaped in her womb; and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit."
- Luke 1:67, "And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Spirit, and prophesied, saying . . . "
- Acts 2:4, "And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit was giving them utterance.
- Acts 4:8, "Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said to them, “Rulers and elders of the people,"
- Acts 4:31, "And when they had prayed, the place where they had gathered together was shaken, and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak the word of God with boldness."
- Acts 9:17, "So Ananias departed and entered the house, and after laying his hands on him said, “Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus, who appeared to you on the road by which you were coming, has sent me so that you may regain your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit.”
- Acts 13:9, "But Saul, who was also known as Paul, filled with the Holy Spirit, fixed his gaze on him,"
- Acts 13:52, "And the disciples were continually filled with joy and with the Holy Spirit."
- Eph 5:18, "And do not get drunk with wine, for that is dissipation, but be filled with the Spirit,"
Perhaps I have missed something.Doug_E_Fresh said:
What is being debated here is whether or not water baptism is necessary for the forgiveness of sin.
I say it is not.
I'm not exactly sure what your position is on this subject?
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I think he is trying to show that people receive the Holy Spirit baptism before they are given water baptism.The Barrd said:
I'm not sure if any baptism other than Holy Spirit baptism is essential. But it seems good to me to have water baptism as well.
But as for the "one baptism" in the creed, that is surely referring to Holy Spirit baptism. Because that is the baptism that unifies us in christ's resurrection.
The Bible says that there is One Lord,lforrest said:
One Faith,
and only
One Baptism.
John the Baptist told the people "I baptize you with water, but the One Who is coming (Jesus) will baptize you with the Holy Spirit, and with fire.
Now, it seems to me that the water is just a symbol. The real baptism is the baptism of Jesus Christ, with the Holy Spirit and with fire. That is something that takes place inside the believer...it is an interaction between his/her heart, and the Heart of God.
Now, the person may choose to get himself dunked, or splashed, or whatever...I had a crippled friend once who couldn't go down into the water, so they just dumped a bucket of water on his head...but I know that he was changed, so I'm guessing his baptism "took".
And there it is.
Of course, we can't see any change that might be going on...other than the person is getting wet. Whatever is going on inside his/her heart is strictly between him/her and God.
Therefore, we need to stop trying to "guess" what baptism is...or what it isn't.
Let's leave it between each individual believer....and God.
ewq1938
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The Barrd said:
That's a verse often misunderstood. There isn't one Lord or Baptism so the writer is not telling us that there is only one but is highlighting the importance of each. As you said, there is a baptism of water and another of fire. That's two baptisms and both the Father and Jesus are called Lord in scripture. So we must understand the verse in the terms the writer meant and not how we interpret it in our modern minds.
two baptisms:
Mat_3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
two Lords:
Mat_11:25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.
God the Father is Lord
Luk_24:3 And they entered in, and found not the body of the Lord Jesus.
Jesus is Lord
I don't see it that way.ewq1938 said:
There is only One Lord....
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God....
And the Word WAS GOD.
Just ONE God.
And there is only One baptism. Those who have been baptized in water...what did the pastor or whoever say, when he dunked/splashed/sprinkled/poured? Of course, if your heart is busy communicating with God's heart while this is going on, as it should be, you might not remember. He could have said "I baptize the in the name of Ronald McDonald" for all you might have known.
However, I'm fairly sure the right words are:
"I baptize thee in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit"...right?
Which would mean that you are being baptized...provided your heart is communicating with God's heart, as it should be...into the baptism of Jesus Christ...which is the baptism of the Holy Spirit and of fire.
Just ONE Baptism.
ewq1938
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The Barrd said:
If the Father and Son are both called Lord there are two Lords.
Again, that goes against the verses posted. There is a water baptism and there is a baptism of fire/holy spirit
That's two, again.
So that means the other verse is being misunderstood.
Probably should be understood with Christ in mind:
Eph 4:5 One Lord (Jesus), one faith (in Jesus), one baptism (by Jesus),
I'm afraid you've lost me, here.ewq1938 said:
I know of only ONE God...just ONE.
I know of a God Who is God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit...
In each of these capacities, that ONE God is called Lord.
Think of it this way. My name is Deborah.
When my children introduce me, they will say "This is my mother. Her name is Deborah."
When my parents introduce me, they will say "This is our daughter. Her name is Deborah."
When my friends introduce me, they will say "This is my friend. Her name is Deborah."
In the same way, when I speak of God the Father, I call Him "Lord."
When I speak of God the Son, I call Him "Lord."
And when I speak of the Holy Spirit, it would also be correct to call Him "Lord."
There is only one Deborah. I am a mother, and a daughter, and a friend.
There is only one Lord. He is God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit...
I hope this helps.
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