The Restrainer

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brakelite

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How can Christ kill at his coming, a figure that is to be 'released' by an entity that ceased to be thousands of years ago?
I'm not saying you cannot answer this, I am asking you to....thanks.
You are aware I am sure that because of the very things we are discussing, some futurists who recognise the "Roman factor" in the ascent of the Antichrist, have invented a future "revived Roman Empire" in order for a future antichrist to grow out of it? I see the dismissing of the "Roman factor" equally non-sensical as a future revival. The thing is Naomi it isn't just this one small passage of scripture we have to rely on for information regarding the identity of Antichrist. While the identity of the restrainer is important, (as was the identity of John the Baptist) it isn't all we have. Daniel and Revelation gives a huge amount of detailed prophecy which when looked at objectively and by using some well established fundamental rules regarding the interpretation of Bible prophecy, brings us to the same conclusion. Pagan Rome was Satan's vehicle which gave the Papacy its throne, its power, and its authority. Papal Rome was/is the second to last creation of a global religious vehicle for destroying and/or deceiving millions that paganism could never attain to.
I don't discount that it could be or is. But in my estimation, even if it IS something like the RCC, or a government or organisation...there is always a man at the top, is there not?
Indeed, as prophecy revealed...
Da 7:8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.

But again...one man would struggle to rise, even with Satan behind him...without some sort of power base under him...so again, "Man" of sin, and "organisation of sin" sort of go hand in hand. But, that's just my opinion
Of course. Satan was behind the RCC, and again, prophecy reveals this would be the case...
Revelation 13:1 ¶ And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.

Only through the legislative and secular power, enforced by the sword, of the empire could Papal Rome have come to power. The main protagonists as far as legislation in this rise to fame were Constantine and Justinian. And without the armies of the empire the three horns of the Heruli, the Goths, and the Vandals, whose beliefs on the Godhead were diametrically opposed to Rome's and their own armies a great threat, would never have been vanquished...or "plucked up by the roots"...and their so-called heretical beliefs buried and forgotten.
But...it doesn't make much sense to me that Satan's 'big' plan is to start an organisation that teaches a basic truth.
They do not teach "basic truth". Do you understand the base meaning of "Antichrist"? It doesn't simple mean 'opposition'...it is the means by which it opposes that is intrinsic to its identity that sets it apart. It opposes by replacing. By becoming a substitute. With that in mind, think about what you know of Catholic dogma, doctrine, and tradition, and ask yourself "do these things replace Christ in the minds and hearts of their followers'?
While they teach Jesus came as a man, they do not teach He came 'in the flesh'... "in the likeness of sinful flesh"...as scripture teaches. They teach He came from sinless/immaculate Mary. Thus they deny Jesus came in the flesh. And teaching Jesus is the Son of God is useless if they replace His efficacy as Saviour with a myriad of replacement saviours and gods such as Mary and numerous 'saints' and work related sacraments that all have their roots in Roman paganism.
Because, like it or not, plenty of people have come to a saving knowledge of Christ through the RCC.
Really? Not that I would disagree that there are genuine Christians within the Catholic system...but come to Christ through the RCC? I would suggest despite the RCC, not because or through.
 

Earburner

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Should we call that a leap of illogic or a leap of faith?

If the Millennial Kingdom is now why are the evildoers having a heyday while Christians are being killed and persecuted?

Why are seducers waxing worse and worse?

Why is there a great falling away within Christendom?

We could go on and on about world conditions and arrive at one conclusion: believing that the Millennium is now is PURE FANTASY.
This isn't necessarily connected to the 1000 year reign in Revelation. It's just talking about how different God's interaction with time is than our own.

Maybe Isaiah 55:8-9 will explain God's understanding better for you, as opposed to HOW WE think.
 

stunnedbygrace

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So, this might get some varied reactions; I'm hoping that a reasonable, biblical based discussion can be held on the topic anyway.

But if it is by the Spirit of God that I cast out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you. Or how can someone enter a strong man's house and plunder his goods, unless he first binds the strong man? Then indeed he may plunder his house...
And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.
-Matthew 12:28–29,32

Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God. Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? And you know what is restraining him now so that he may be revealed in his time. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work. Only he who now restrains it will do so until he is out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will kill with the breath of his mouth and bring to nothing by the appearance of his coming. The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders, and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false, in order that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness. -2 Thessalonians 2:3–12


The Thousand Years
Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding in his hand the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain. And he seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years, and threw him into the pit, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he might not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were ended. After that he must be released for a little while.

The Defeat of Satan
And when the thousand years are ended, Satan will be released from his prison and will come out to deceive the nations that are at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them for battle; their number is like the sand of the sea. And they marched up over the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, but fire came down from heaven and consumed them, (ESV)
-Revelation 20:1–3, Revelation 20:7–9


Okay, so...where am I going with this? In all three of these passages we see these ideas: Satan deceives against God's truth; that's how he controls, ultimately, the nations, enhancing their already sinful desires to do his biding against the people of God.
We see that there is a time when Satan is prevented from deceiving the nations to some extent by some force/person...he is bound, or restrained.
There is also a time when he will be 'released', to go forth and deceive again, with specific intent to gather the nations against the people of God.

My thought is that these three passages are linked. Their content is too similar to ignore.
"Bind/Bound": to hold or restrict by force or obligation; tie or fasten, to restrain.
"Restrain": prevent (someone or something) from doing something; keep under control or within limits. Control, deprive.

If they are linked, then they also shed some light on some other issues. Matthew 12 shows us that Jesus 'bound' the strongman so as to 'plunder' his house. In other words...Satan, the acknowledged 'prince of this world', was bound so "the Kingdom is upon you". The gospel news of Christ spread across the globe like nothing ever previously witnessed. Even now, Christianity, while the highest persecuted religion, is still sitting at the top, number wise. The 'prince of this world' has not been able to stop the gospel going forth, even though he and his demons have no doubt tried. As Christ said, "I will build my Church and the gates of hell will not prevail against it." The Kingdom marches now.

2 Thess 2 tells us that troubling times will come. The 'Man of lawlessness' will arise, his coming empowered by Satan and his false signs, wonders and....'all wicked deception'. That this man is being 'restrained' by something, and that his coming will be with Satan's deception.
This leads us to Revelation 20, when we are told that Satan will be bound against decieving the nations, but at the end of time will be let out 'for a little while' to deceive the nations 'to gather them together for war' against the people of God.
What we know about this 'man of lawlessness', often termed the Antichrist, is that he will persecute the people of God with a passion. He will lie like a pig in mud, and deceive everyone into thinking he is divine by working miracles. He indeed must have Satan's powers behind him.

By now, you see where I'm going. The kingdom is now; the Millennial Kingdom. Satan has been bound while the gospel has progressed across the globe. And as we see persecution against Christians rise, we must ask ourselves, has Satan been 'released' to bring forth his final man of deception? His final push against the people of God? Will we possibly see this end time fulfillment in our time, or could this 'little season' be longer and more dreadful than we think? Or, do we think the increased persecution we see today is just part of the inevitable ebb and flow, as horrible as it is, against Christians. That in a generation things won't be so bad, and perhaps the Post-Mills have it right after all!?

Looking forward to civil and thoughtful debate with all!


This is interesting...are there any other verses we can bring in to determine whether we are in fact in this millennial kingdom now? Any verses about what will happen or be going on in that millennial kingdom, so we can compare them to our right now and see if it is so?
 
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stunnedbygrace

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I seem to recall a passage that describes it as a time where men will outlive the work of their hands. I always imagine this as men outliving the houses they build and so having to build a new one.

I think its the same passage that describes animals being peaceful, snakes not biting, leopards not killing and eating lambs, and men living a lot longer.
 

stunnedbygrace

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Oh and it says there WILL be some dying young, but reads as if it won't be the norm. And it says there won't be war, but there will still be disputes that will be mediated.
 
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brakelite

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None of that sounds like right now.
And none of them necessarily apply to the millennium. The only verse I know that without doubt pertains exclusively to the millennium is the verse that specifically mentions 1000 years... And during that time we reign as kings with Christ. That's it. At least as far as we are concerned. It doesn't even mention directly where we reign and live with Him. Could be in heaven, not earth.
Impossible for the devil to deceive anyone if there's no-one here right? If all the lost are destroyed by the brightness of His coming, and the resurrected and those who are alive meet with themt in the air....
 

stunnedbygrace

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And none of them necessarily apply to the millennium. The only verse I know that without doubt pertains exclusively to the millennium is the verse that specifically mentions 1000 years... And during that time we reign as kings with Christ. That's it. At least as far as we are concerned. It doesn't even mention directly where we reign and live with Him. Could be in heaven, not earth.
Impossible for the devil to deceive anyone if there's no-one here right? If all the lost are destroyed by the brightness of His coming, and the resurrected and those who are alive meet with themt in the air....

I don't think there will be disputes in heaven and I don't think men will still die in heaven. So I don't think that passage can refer to heaven. The passage sounds good, but not that good.
 
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brakelite

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I don't think there will be disputes in heaven and I don't think men will still die in heaven. So I don't think that passage can refer to heaven. The passage sounds good, but not that good.
Correct. But what evidence is there that any passage regarding disputes and death are intended for the millennium?
 

stunnedbygrace

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Correct. But what evidence is there that any passage regarding disputes and death are intended for the millennium?

Because it says Jesus will settle the disputes and men will no longer have wars. I don't think men, on their own, will ever stop war on earth.
 

stunnedbygrace

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I also don't think leopards will stop eating lambs on their own on earth.
 
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brakelite

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Of course, I get that. But you not understanding my question. What has all that got to do with the millennium? What evidence is there that all that good stuff takes place during that specific 1000 year period?
 
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brakelite

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@stunnedbygrace You see, there is no definitive evidence that the reign we have with Christ for that 1000 year period actually takes place on earth. There is not a great deal we know about it at all... Most of what I see people saying regarding the millennium is assumption. What we do know is mainly two things. That we live and reign with Christ, and that the devil is bound and unable to deceive the nations. That's it.
There is more evidence that immediately after Christ comes, the earth, that is the entire planet, is left utterly devoid of life altogether. The Devil is unable to deceive because there's no one here. He is bound by the circumstances of his solitude. God's people are reigning with their King on His throne for 1000 years until such time as the new Jerusalem, with us inside, descend upon earth... The dead are raised to face their final judgement... They and the surface of the planet are obliterated by fire from heaven... And a new heaven and new earth is created. Then you will see the leopard and the lamb sleeping together. Them you will see no more war, crying, years, or pain. Then it is when the meek inherit the earth. An earth made new. Not a broken cemetery filled with disease, pollution, and rubble.
 
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stunnedbygrace

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@stunnedbygrace You see, there is no definitive evidence that the reign we have with Christ for that 1000 year period actually takes place on earth. There is not a great deal we know about it at all... Most of what I see people saying regarding the millennium is assumption. What we do know is mainly two things. That we live and reign with Christ, and that the devil is bound and unable to deceive the nations. That's it.
There is more evidence that immediately after Christ comes, the earth, that is the entire planet, is left utterly devoid of life altogether. The Devil is unable to deceive because there's no one here. He is bound by the circumstances of his solitude. God's people are reigning with their King on His throne for 1000 years until such time as the new Jerusalem, with us inside, descend upon earth... The dead are raised to face their final judgement... They and the surface of the planet are obliterated by fire from heaven... And a new heaven and new earth is created. Then you will see the leopard and the lamb sleeping together. Them you will see no more war, crying, years, or pain. Then it is when the meek inherit the earth. An earth made new. Not a broken cemetery filled with disease, pollution, and rubble.

If you read the passage I am referring to, men still die. Men still have disputes. That doesn't sound to me like heaven.will men in heaven have disputes? Will death still be present in heaven?

So these things (men disputing, men dying while still young) are proof to me that this passage does not take place in heaven.

Has there ever been a 1000 year period on earth (in the history we have access to) where there were no wars?
 
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stunnedbygrace

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So when you ask, do you know for a fact that some men will not still die in heaven, or do you know for a fact there will be no disputes in heaven, I guess my answer is...that wouldn't BE heaven, in my estimation. The passage sounds like a great improvement, but it doesn't sound like a perfection of heaven.

I think you would have to read the passage for yourself to see what I am saying...